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    Thread: Any forum bigger than ours in the web?

    1. #1
      Member sanctispiritus's Avatar
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      Any forum bigger than ours in the web?

      I am asking this because I have been trying to find a forum similar tho Dream View. There are some in Europe, I found one in Spanish, but in terms of participants, and resourses this one this one is the MOTHER of all of the rest.

    2. #2
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      Yes, I am a member on several for various hobbies I have. The vintage audio forum I am active on seems to be bigger than DV.

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      There are a lot of lucid dreaming communities out there all over the world. Some are pretty big.

      However, it's bad etiquette to post links to other lucid dreaming forums.

      Feel free to seek them out and read information anywhere you can find it. Bring it here and share what you know. That is how communities grow.

      I'm fairly sure the other forums would mostly say the same.

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      You'd be better off not looking for Lucid Dream specific forums.

      Forums that have a large userbase usually contain "general" threads, like "General Airsoft Discussion", "Metal Megathread", or my favorite "The Catgirl Megathread". These threads can be quite large and have lots of people discussing content related to the thread title.

      I know that this one forum I go to has a Lucid Dreaming and General Dream Discussion thread.
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      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      There are a lot of lucid dreaming communities out there all over the world. Some are pretty big.

      However, it's bad etiquette to post links to other lucid dreaming forums.

      Feel free to seek them out and read information anywhere you can find it. Bring it here and share what you know. That is how communities grow.

      I'm fairly sure the other forums would mostly say the same.
      Yeah, it's like walking into a restaurant and asking if their is a better one elsewhere. Not only is it had form, it's against the rules to post other dreaming sites.

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      There is a difference between advertising other forums, and giving suggestions for a resource (remember, now, these forums aren't supposed to be primarily businesses, but resources) when explicitly asked.

      But dreamviews rules are, like, the ten commandments, so whatevs. And Dreamviews is clearly a business.

      Luckily, there's no rule against badmouthing this forum, when it's due.
      Last edited by Abra; 07-27-2012 at 03:04 AM.
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      Abraxas

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    7. #7
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      This brings to mind the Macy scene in Miracle on 34th Street. I only wish it could have had the same outcome.
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      Well (!!!)

      Quote Originally Posted by Auron View Post
      Yeah, it's like walking into a restaurant and asking if their is a better one elsewhere. Not only is it bad form, it's against the rules to post other dreaming sites.
      Well

      I am into psi dreaming experiments. I tell you Dreamvierwer's about any psi dream experiments happening anywhere. And I link you to them.

      And I yell (oops I mean tell) other sites about the exciting psi dreaming experiments being done here at Dreamviews. And I link them to the thread (here) that I told them about.

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      The information isn't what is at issue.

      The idea is simply to avoid links that take traffic to competing sites.

      We all know other sites exist.

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      Yeah, but we're not sure you do. Are you real, Melanieb?

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      Member sanctispiritus's Avatar
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      Iknow other sites exist and I have visited some of them. I was just trying to find out if there were other sites with interesting information, but like Abra said "aren't supposed to be primarily businesses, but resources". I have received quite a few unpolite responses in this forum, and for no reason. Those people better work for Rodney campaign. I joined this forum in Augost 2008, and I think at those times was more friendly. Rules have changed. Sorry for my English.

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      This Dreamviews site is wonderful so what are the Mods of Dreamviews so afraid of.

      You Mod-Gods, you open a thread and put all the great dreaming sites you know of (including non English sites) in it with recommemdations.

      Expand the borders of Dreamviews' big heart.

      It will do you no harm.

      It will do us all heaps and heaps of good.

      We are one human race. We all came from one african mother, genetically. Our spieces got as low as about 300 individuals sometime in our short genetic history. We nearly went extinct. They know that from our tiny genetic pool.

      So let's not be so mean to a 62 year old, sincere, foreigner who has been with us since August 2008 and made 12 interesting threads, when he asks:



      Quote Originally Posted by sanctispiritus View Post
      I am asking this because I have been trying to find a forum similar tho Dream View. There are some in Europe, I found one in Spanish, but in terms of participants, and resourses this one Dreamviews this one is the MOTHER of all of the rest.
      I want to have a big list of what's out there on the miraculous World Wide Web.

      Think of how everyone would feel if a natural phenomen permanently brought down the World Wide Web. We would ALL be so sorry that we didn't fully apreciate and utilise the amazing thing we once had.

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      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      However, it's bad etiquette to post links to other lucid dreaming forums.
      This is only true on DV. Other places are pretty chill about linking to other communities.

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      Feel free to seek them out and read information anywhere you can find it. Bring it here and share what you know. That is how communities grow.
      Without citation, this is plagiarism. Very illegal.

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      I'm fairly sure the other forums would mostly say the same.
      Yes, but they're fine with linking to the original sources. Here, you risk a ban for trying to give credit by linking to an off-site resource, even if that resource generates no revenue.
      Last edited by Mzzkc; 07-30-2012 at 06:06 PM.

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      DreamViews actually is the mother of most LDing sites. At several points in DreamViews' history, members from this sites became disgruntled with some aspect of the forum and then leave to start their own communities.

      There is no lucid dreaming community as cohesive as the one found on DreamViews. There is a lucid dreaming subreddit, but it utterly lacks the magic of DreamViews.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Black_Eagle View Post
      DreamViews actually is the mother of most LDing sites. At several points in DreamViews' history, members and staff from this sites disagreed with forum policies and direction and then leave to start their own communities.
      FTFY

      Quote Originally Posted by Black_Eagle View Post
      There is no lucid dreaming community as cohesive as the one found on DreamViews.
      Uhh. If you say so.

      Kinda hard to believe that with all the mass exoduses you've already mentioned.

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      I did some searching on the net and found quite a few other sites. None of them were as big or used as much bandwidth as DreamViews.

      Out of the ones I found nearly all of them had some form of revenue ads on them. Smaller ones asked for donation support. Some required membership or specifically were set up to sell information on lucid dreaming.

      Linking to other communities would present few issues for most of these sites. DreamViews has constant issues with people attempting to advertise here. I know this because I read alot of threads and posts here.

      Some of the very small sites and forums were not ad-supported but generally had fewer than 500 members, a percentage of which were spammers.

      When you have a project of this size and scope(DreamViews) it's important to not only keep your members (running this is expensive) here but also to avoid issues of plagiarism or copyright infringement.

      BTW, plagiarism isn't illegal, just not ethical. Copyright Infringement is illegal. Plagiarism vs. Copyright Infringement: Is Copying Illegal?

      The Fair Use Exemption does allow you to copy small portions of someone's work legally, particularly if it is for informative purposes, but you need to cite the author or source.


      I only uphold the rules I'm told to uphold. I'm sure there are good reasons for them to exist.

      It's okay to challenge the rules here, but it should be done in the Talk-To-Staff section.


      I want to have a big list of what's out there on the miraculous World Wide Web.

      Use your favorite search engine. You will find plenty of results for anything you wish.


      DreamViews actually is the mother of most LDing sites. At several points in DreamViews' history, members and staff from this sites disagreed with forum policies and direction and then leave to start their own communities.
      Many who left were upset with other forum members over behavior and not getting their way. A high percentage of these were young people who did not know how to handle their personal feelings in an adult manner.

      People are going to disagree at times, and that's okay. How people handle it reflects on them, not the community at large.
      Last edited by melanieb; 07-30-2012 at 08:13 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      I did some searching on the net and found quite a few other sites. None of them were as big or used as much bandwidth as DreamViews.
      Yes, everyone will agree Dreamviews is the largest, most visible lucid dreaming resource on the net, but that doesn't mean higher quality content doesn't exist elsewhere.

      Sharing such content here, where it can be viewed, is currently very difficult.

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      Out of the ones I found nearly all of them had some form of revenue ads on them. Smaller ones asked for donation support. Some required membership or specifically were set up to sell information on lucid dreaming.
      A better choice of words would have been "profit." Only a handful of quality LDing sites exist without revenue support.

      However, there's a difference between revenue and profit. I understand the policy on dissuading competition between DV and other businesses, but the "free resource" clause established by icedawg was there for a reason.

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      Linking to other communities would present few issues for most of these sites. DreamViews has constant issues with people attempting to advertise here. I know this because I read alot of threads and posts here.
      All the advertising instances here on Dreamviews are handled case by case, are they not?

      If so, why not allow off-site links to completely free resources? If Dreamviews truly considers itself top tier, in terms of content quality, it shouldn't be afraid of "losing" members.

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      Some of the very small sites and forums were not ad-supported but generally had fewer than 500 members, a percentage of which were spammers.
      Okay?

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      When you have a project of this size and scope(DreamViews) it's important to not only keep your members (running this is expensive) here but also to avoid issues of plagiarism or copyright infringement.

      BTW, plagiarism isn't illegal, just not ethical. Copyright Infringement is illegal. Plagiarism vs. Copyright Infringement: Is Copying Illegal?

      The Fair Use Exemption does allow you to copy small portions of someone's work legally, particularly if it is for informative purposes, but you need to cite the author or source.
      Yes, you're right; copyright infringement is what's illegal.

      However, this issue only serves to strengthen my point. After all, as is the case at DV, almost all off-site resources are copyrighted. To share them legally under Fair Use policies would require enough information to determine the author and source, something that is currently disallowed.

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      I only uphold the rules I'm told to uphold. I'm sure there are good reasons for them to exist.
      I understand that, and I don't fault you for it. I simply hope you're defending them because you believe them to be instated in good-faith and not because you were told to.

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      It's okay to challenge the rules here, but it should be done in the Talk-To-Staff section.
      Is this a rule? If so, I was not aware of it.

      I was simply continuing the ongoing conversation as it related to the OP's concerns. You know, trying to offer him an explanation as to why he's being treated so harshly after returning to the site and asking a simple question.


      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      Many who left were upset with other forum members over behavior and not getting their way. A high percentage of these were young people who did not know how to handle their personal feelings in an adult manner.

      People are going to disagree at times, and that's okay. How people handle it reflects on them, not the community at large.
      This only portrays a more recent minority.

      Many of the people who helped establish and grow this forum to what it is today are counted among those who disagreed with emerging and continuing policies. I certainly hope you aren't calling them childish. They deserve more respect than that.
      Last edited by Mzzkc; 07-30-2012 at 08:54 PM.

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      Sharing information from other sites is easy enough. Read it, share it.

      The purpose of this thread isn't about profit or ad-support.

      It's not hard to share info under Fair Use, and you can always reword material. Every student is taught to do that in school.

      If you think DreamViews should allow posting of resources create a topic in the Talk To Staff forum and suggest a method that works.

      I uphold the rules and interpret them as best I can. I ask when uncertain. I think everyone I've encountered has done a fine job of that.

      I must admit I'm not aware of the instances of when the OP was treated harshly. I'm only here to respond to questions. I would be glad to look into instances of posts that go against forum guidelines of behavior.

      I can only operate on what I've seen in posts and threads. Every forum has people who come and go for a multitude of reasons, and few of us can know all of the people or reasons for why they leave. With all due respect this forum is built on the efforts of many people all over the world, and I could never know their personal motivations.

      I would never use the word childish. I have children. People here are rarely like my children.



      And for the OP...I looked and could find none as big as DV, though I did find some on Astral Projecting that were quite large. I also hear there is a large LD forum on a Chinese website but it's all in Chinese and Google Translate only makes it funny.

    19. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      Sharing information from other sites is easy enough. Read it, share it.
      With links and proper citations?

      What's weird is that we're allowed to link to just about any off-site resource we want on this site...unless it has to do with LDing. I can't wrap my ahead around why a site that claims to focus on furthering the spread LDing knowledge doesn't allow links to non-commercialized LDing sites, but does allow links to commercialized sites that have nothing to do with LDing.

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      The purpose of this thread isn't about profit or ad-support.
      No, but it's part of the larger issue surrounding why no one can provide a list of off-site resources.

      The fact of the matter remains: DV is a web-based business. Businesses like DV are concerned with profits which often come from ad-support. Higher traffic and visibility equates to higher ad revenue. Higher ad revenue turns into larger profits. Throw in other profitable services and you've got a good business model on your hands.

      By disallowing links to "competing" sites, DV keeps itself at the top of the search results, which is great for revenue, but the restricted knowledge-base hurts the average user in the long-run. One of the best LDing sites out there (in terms of content quality and member expertise) is 7 pages down, well out of reach of anyone not "in the know." So simply saying "search for it!" isn't the best possible answer; it's the only one given the current rules.

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      It's not hard to share info under Fair Use,
      It is when the original source and owner cannot be attributed.

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      and you can always reword material. Every student is taught to do that in school.
      I don't know about you, but that sorta thing got people expelled from every school I've attended. Rewording material (AKA paraphrasing) without attribution is still plagiarism if the source isn't acknowledged. As you previously stated, such behavior is unethical.

      I assume DV isn't pursuing and encouraging unethical practices, so I'll chalk this point up to an error in definition.

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      If you think DreamViews should allow posting of resources create a topic in the Talk To Staff forum and suggest a method that works.
      I may do just that.

      However, as you're aware, the likelihood of change in that policy is minimal, as such a thing would have to go through Alex to see implementation. The only way that Alex would agree with such a change is if a majority of users and staff were aware of the issues and agreed with the proposed solution. Alex has been quite good at responding to the wants and needs of members, but such a change could arguably impact revenue (positively or negatively) and Alex is unlikely to budge on the issue without sound arguments and overwhelming support in one direction.

      Hence this calm, rational, public dissent.

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      I can only operate on what I've seen in posts and threads. Every forum has people who come and go for a multitude of reasons, and few of us can know all of the people or reasons for why they leave. With all due respect this forum is built on the efforts of many people all over the world, and I could never know their personal motivations.
      No worries, I wouldn't expect anyone who hasn't been here four or more years, or explored beyond the walls of DV, to know the events and people I'm referring to. I only know a portion of the people who have cut-ties with this site and their reasons for doing so. Some of them, especially more recently, have left for the reasons you've described. Others have left for more noble reasons, namely stark differences in ideology and thought.

      Different knowledge brings about different mindsets. If you've only ever heard or conversed with people who've left in a huff due to personal melodrama, I can understand your viewpoint. But there are other issues here that drive otherwise valuable members away. However, most go beyond the scope of this thread.

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      I would never use the word childish. I have children. People here are rarely like my children.
      Emotionally deficient, then?

      Still not cool. Most of the people I'm speaking of helped build the foundations DV is currently sitting on. They had the same aspirations and drive to help that you possess. They simply wanted for more and were denied after their years of service. I pray (to the FSM, of course) you don't find yourself in a similar position.
      Last edited by Mzzkc; 07-31-2012 at 12:27 AM.

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      I encourage you to post a solution. Judge not Alex's POV until you make your post and get a response.

      I'm not debating the policies in place or what people could to to share material from other sites. I'm merely responding to the thread. I believe anyone here could reword or share the meaning of material posted elsewhere without running across the issue of plagiarism or copyright infringement. In no way does this imply or encourage "unethical practices." If anything it implies learning material elsewhere and sharing it here. You can even cite the author (legitimately) without linking to another lucid dreaming website.

      What worries me in this last post is that I used the phrase "young people" and you turned that into "childish" and "emotionally deficient." I do appreciate a healthy discussion but using different language to attribute meanings to my words is "still not cool." I see this tactic in many of your posts on the forum where you feel the need to disagree on a point.

      We are not competing, and the people who came here four or more years ago have never been at issue. You weren't one of them either. Neither of us should attempt to speak for them.

      As for the sites beyond the walls of DV many are interesting and every member, including the admins and mods, are welcome to explore them at will.


      I look forward to further discussions on this subject and others.

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      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      It's okay to challenge the rules here, but it should be done in the Talk-To-Staff section.
      I disagree. Challenging the rules is something that applies to the whole community, not just a single user and staff. Thus the entire community should be allowed to comment on threads concerning the changing of rules. It's stuff like personal problems with a particular mod etc. that should be confined to TTS.

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      Sharing information from other sites is easy enough. Read it, share it.

      It's not hard to share info under Fair Use, and you can always reword material. Every student is taught to do that in school.
      No, just changing the words creates a derivative work. Reading something, learning from it, and applying that knowledge to create a new work. That's how you're supposed to do it, and that's what they (try to) teach in school.
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      Quote Originally Posted by khh View Post
      I disagree. Challenging the rules is something that applies to the whole community, not just a single user and staff. Thus the entire community should be allowed to comment on threads concerning the changing of rules. It's stuff like personal problems with a particular mod etc. that should be confined to TTS.
      Anyone can comment in the Talk to Staff section.


      Quote Originally Posted by khh View Post
      No, just changing the words creates a derivative work. Reading something, learning from it, and applying that knowledge to create a new work. That's how you're supposed to do it, and that's what they (try to) teach in school.
      I mentioned this in the above post. Your post was probably being typed just as I was posting mine.


      My quote:
      If anything it implies learning material elsewhere and sharing it here. You can even cite the author (legitimately) without linking to another lucid dreaming website.

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      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      Anyone can comment in the Talk to Staff section.
      No, you can only see the threads you yourself have created, unless you're staff. That's the whole point of the TTS forum, confidential communication between a user and staff.

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      I mentioned this in the above post. Your post was probably being typed just as I was posting mine.

      My quote:
      Right you are.
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      A few points, and I will let things sit as they are. =)

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      I encourage you to post a solution. Judge not Alex's POV until you make your post and get a response.
      Will do.

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      I'm not debating the policies in place or what people could to to share material from other sites. I'm merely responding to the thread. I believe anyone here could reword or share the meaning of material posted elsewhere without running across the issue of plagiarism or copyright infringement. In no way does this imply or encourage "unethical practices." If anything it implies learning material elsewhere and sharing it here. You can even cite the author (legitimately) without linking to another lucid dreaming website.
      I am fine with this so long as material is put into completely different words and the author attributed. I was taught that if you're looking at the source while you're writing, you're essentially copying that source and attribution is required. Of course, some of the best information (guides, tutorials, etc.) can't be easily shared in the way you've suggested without running into both quality and legal issues.

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      What worries me in this last post is that I used the phrase "young people" and you turned that into "childish" and "emotionally deficient." I do appreciate a healthy discussion but using different language to attribute meanings to my words is "still not cool." I see this tactic in many of your posts on the forum where you feel the need to disagree on a point.
      No, I defined the situation using appropriate terms.

      Via Google:

      Childish - adj; Silly and immature.

      I would argue that "people who [do] not know how to handle their personal feelings in an adult manner" can be considered immature. Cutting ties with a website due to dealing with someone you don't know IRL is silly.

      The definition fits.

      To be fair "emotionally deficient" is a stretch. Emotionally undeveloped is probably a better fit.

      You are the one that made the link between "young-people" and childish, not I.

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      We are not competing,
      In that case, the change should have already happened. Why hasn't it?

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      and the people who came here four or more years ago have never been at issue. You weren't one of them either. Neither of us should attempt to speak for them.
      I lurked extensively for over a year before registering and learned all about DV's history, member relationships, and policy changes during that time. I've even spoken with defectors personally, sometimes one on one. They haven't left the LDing scene, after all; just DV.

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      As for the sites beyond the walls of DV many are interesting and every member, including the admins and mods, are welcome to explore them at will.
      Agreed, but this point is not in contention.

      Quote Originally Posted by melanieb View Post
      I look forward to further discussions on this subject and others.
      I as well. ^.^


      Edit:

      Anyone can comment in the Talk to Staff section.
      Do you mean Meta?

      Talk to Staff is private and confidential.

    25. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by khh View Post
      No, you can only see the threads you yourself have created, unless you're staff. That's the whole point of the TTS forum, confidential communication between a user and staff.

      My mistake. It's easy to forget things like that. I can see all of them now so it's easy to understand my confusion.

      Meta Forum works just as well. I commented there before becoming a Dream Guide. I know that works.

      Still, I'm sure there are easy ways to encourage the integration of new ideas or change without issues between members. Finding points to agree on is likely to create more change than finding ways to disagree. At least I like to think so.
      Mzzkc likes this.

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