So get this

So I suppose before I start, I should introduce you to my situation.

I Have a wonderful girl I've been with for the past three years.
Of course our relationship has been anything but normal. She understands that I need to help people.
As in it's what i do, I work and go to school full time on both, When I graduate in my degree I can expect over 100 grand a year.
Our future is set.
And me helping people is nothing new.
But I've always taken a more passive role in this. When people open up to me I'm the shoulder they cry on and the one who fixes their problems.

But my charge is something new, another woman, I have been speaking too.
One who has taken a great interest in me, but also misunderstands my intentions just enough to make it a problem.
Although I would lie if I said the ideals were not mutual.
Do I continue to work or do I let her fall through the cracks.
I have talked to my woman about this and she has given me her trust and her acceptance into what I need to do, no matter how far I need to go.
If I have to sleep with her she is understanding
But honestly I would wish I could work my silver tongued charm without any 'romantic' ideals coming into play. However from the new womans perspective that is all I see I could play on.
I have already set my plan into motion, that has caused two acquaintences to fall out, her to get abused, and me to become an important piece into play.
Do I lead on as the teacher who cannot reach too far emotionally into her heart?
Or do I become the lover she needs to learn from.

All I know is that my plan has started and one of these outcomes will happen, however the more and more I talk with her I realize the less she needs of the first, and the more she needs of the second. I have set my immediate future to accommodate the second but taking on a second lover, a second soul, one who is not equal but under is so tempting of an ideal I almost can not resist it.

Do I turn myself over to idealism and primality.
Or do I let conscious reason flood my thoughts and actions.

Why would banging her be so helpful?

Operant Conditioning.

Get your shit together, son. For fuck sakes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nhuc

Operant Conditioning.

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Stop being vague. It's not helpful. So far it sounds like you just want to fuck her, and are rationalizing that you want to help her.

You have a girlfriend.

Having sex with another person (without your mate's consent) is cheating.

Cheating is wrong and can get you an instant F on any test in school.

Nhuc

I was curious about you two word reply of operant conditioning so a went a Googling and found this:

Definition:*Operant conditioning

(sometimes referred to as instrumental conditioning) is a method of learning that occurs through rewards and punishments for behavior. Through these rewards and punishments, an association is made between a behavior and a consequence for that behavior.
Learn more and find some examples in this definition of*operant conditioning

that's from this link

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Operant Conditioning - Psychology Definition of the Week

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I clicked that link and found this:

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Introduction to Operant Conditioning
By*Kendra Cherry

, About.com GuideWhat Is Operant Conditioning?

Operant conditioning (sometimes referred to as*instrumental conditioning
) is a method of learning that occurs through rewards and punishments for behavior. Through operant conditioning, an association is made between a behavior and a consequence for that behavior.

Operant conditioning was coined by behaviorist*B.F. Skinner
, which is why you may occasionally hear it referred to as Skinnerian conditioning. As a behaviorist, Skinner believed that internal thoughts and motivations could not be used to explain behavior. Instead, he suggested, we should look only at the external, observable causes* of human behaviour.

Skinner used the term*operant*to refer to any "active behavior that operates upon the environment to generate consequences" (1953). In other words, Skinner's theory explained how we acquire the range of learned behaviors we exhibit each and every day.Examples of Operant Conditioning

We can find examples of operant conditioning at work all around us. Consider the case of children completing homework to earn a reward from a parent or teacher, or employees finishing projects to receive praise or promotions.

In these examples, the promise or possibility of rewards causes an increase in behavior, but operant conditioning can also be used to decrease a behavior. The removal of an undesirable outcome or the use of punishment can be used to decrease or prevent undesirable behaviors.

For example, a child may be told they will lose recess privileges if they talk out of turn in class. This potential for punishment may lead to a decrease in disruptive behaviors.Components of Operant Conditioning

Some key concepts in operant conditioning:

Reinforcement

*is any event that strengthens or increases the behavior it follows. There are two kinds of reinforcers:

Positive reinforcers

*are favorable events or outcomes that are presented after the behavior. In situations that reflect positive reinforcement, a response or behavior is strengthened by the addition of something, such as praise or a direct reward.

Negative reinforcers

*involve the removal of an unfavorable events or outcomes after the display of a behavior. In these situations, a response is strengthened by the removal of something considered unpleasant.
In both of these cases of reinforcement, the behavior*increases.

Punishment

, on the other hand, is the presentation of an adverse event or outcome that causes a decrease in the behavior it follows. There are two kinds of punishment:

Positive punishment

, sometimes referred to as punishment by application, involves the presentation of an unfavorable event or outcome in order to weaken the response it follows.

Negative punishment

, also known as punishment by removal, occurs when an favorable event or outcome is removed after a behavior occurs.

In both of these cases of punishment, the behavior*decreases.

***
.mmmmm

I think you might be playing with fire having sex with ... (what may be considered) your client. You may get yourself deregisted before you even get registered. Please check into the ethics of your chosen career befor proceeding with this operant conditioning experiment.

Hmm, good point deb.
Ethics are litterly a whole class in my major, and well, they focus more on the lawful side of things. and less on the morality. Sometimes however, when we deal with learned behaviors we have to take more radical approaches. For example I had a professor who worked in a team to get a boy the state rescued to talk and learn. From the age of 2-7 he was sold off by his mom to various people who would well, we all know how prostitution works. His team got him to smoke as a reward system to talk, then they gave him porn when you would learn, it wasn't the best schooling but it gave the boy incentive and rewards enough to get him to university, when they first met him he was in a state of such shock he didn't move, eat, talk, or anything.
Okay original poster,
This girl is in an abusive relationship, overall good person, attempting to get her shit together, she just needs a push. She needs a friend but doesn't think she does. I being the 'wonderful' person I am, don't care to see people just kinda crawling around. So i've been trying to be that friend she needs. I've talked with my girl about the state of where it's going and she said to do whatever I believe will help her.

But the problem is how do I get her to help herself without me helping her help herself, and without me becoming that critical, or semi- permanent part of her life.
I used sex as an understandable ( idea of how far it could go) waypoint not as a destination.

Slayer, it's been discussed, I have her consent and yes cheating will make you get an F on any test, and usually kicked out.

Hmm, good point deb.
Ethics are litterly a whole class in my major, and well, they focus more on the lawful side of things. and less on the morality. Sometimes however, when we deal with learned behaviors we have to take more radical approaches. For example I had a professor who worked in a team to get a boy the state rescued to talk and learn. From the age of 2-7 he was sold off by his mom to various people who would well, we all know how prostitution works. His team got him to smoke as a reward system to talk, then they gave him porn when you would learn, it wasn't the best schooling but it gave the boy incentive and rewards enough to get him to university, when they first met him he was in a state of such shock he didn't move, eat, talk, or anything.
Okay original poster,
This girl is in an abusive relationship, overall good person, attempting to get her shit together, she just needs a push. She needs a friend but doesn't think she does. I being the 'wonderful' person I am, don't care to see people just kinda crawling around. So i've been trying to be that friend she needs. I've talked with my girl about the state of where it's going and she said to do whatever I believe will help her.

But the problem is how do I get her to help herself without me helping her help herself, and without me becoming that critical, or semi- permanent part of her life.
I used sex as an understandable ( idea of how far it could go) waypoint not as a destination.

Slayer, it's been discussed, I have her consent and yes cheating will make you get an F on any test, and usually kicked out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nhuc

Hmm, good point deb.
Ethics are litterly a whole class in my major, and well, they focus more on the lawful side of things. and less on the morality. Sometimes however, when we deal with learned behaviors we have to take more radical approaches. For example I had a professor who worked in a team to get a boy the state rescued to talk and learn. From the age of 2-7 he was sold off by his mom to various people who would well, we all know how prostitution works. His team got him to smoke as a reward system to talk, then they gave him porn when you would learn, it wasn't the best schooling but it gave the boy incentive and rewards enough to get him to university, when they first met him he was in a state of such shock he didn't move, eat, talk, or anything.
Okay original poster,
This girl is in an abusive relationship, overall good person, attempting to get her shit together, she just needs a push. She needs a friend but doesn't think she does. I being the 'wonderful' person I am, don't care to see people just kinda crawling around. So i've been trying to be that friend she needs. I've talked with my girl about the state of where it's going and she said to do whatever I believe will help her.

But the problem is how do I get her to help herself without me helping her help herself, and without me becoming that critical, or semi- permanent part of her life.
I used sex as an understandable ( idea of how far it could go) waypoint not as a destination.

Slayer, it's been discussed, I have her consent and yes cheating will make you get an F on any test, and usually kicked out.

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I understand using sex as a means to get her to leave her abusive relationship, or at least sexual appeal. I know far too many women that can't go two weeks alone and constantly have to have someone in their lives or they freak out. Is that what you're trying to do? If so, a better option may be to play match maker. Surely you know someone who's better for her than her current relationship. This would be optimal because she may find out you have a girlfriend, or you could (and likely will) spoil things in your current relationship.

Unfortunately playing match maker would be far more difficult than just fucking her yourself. And you may come off too obvious in your attempts and spoil whatever you want for her. The ideal would be to lead her on enough to help her realize how to be independent, without leading her on so much that she stands at chance at feeling betrayed and returns to her abusive relationship even more stubborn than before.

I've personally come to the conclusion that there's a lot of people you simply cannot help, and I still don't completely understand the nature of your dilemma. Is she being beaten? If so your actions are justified. There's a wide range of definitions for abusive relationship and sometimes people simply have to grow through their need to be abused.

I'm not sure what your asking in the first part, but if you mean I'm inserting myself into it because of that, yes.
my current relationship, while we are human and let our emotions interfere, she understand my need to help people, and the lengths you have to go to achieve it sometimes, our own relationship was started as such, and it has grown into what it is now because of chance and our devotion.

Unfortunately playing match maker would be far more difficult than just fucking her yourself. And you may come off too obvious in your attempts and spoil whatever you want for her. The ideal would be to lead her on enough to help her realize how to be independent, without leading her on so much that she stands at chance at feeling betrayed and returns to her abusive relationship even more stubborn than before.

This also has crossed my mind, and I'm not sure if anything I say or do will stick, and well even if she feels betrayed the damage I do is less than if she continues on what she's doing. And I believe I can, or well I have made a strong impact on his personal live, since he is a drug dealer, I've lost him multiple clients and have his people at angst against trusting him or anyone he deals with.


I've personally come to the conclusion that there's a lot of people you simply cannot help, and I still don't completely understand the nature of your dilemma. Is she being beaten? If so your actions are justified. There's a wide range of definitions for abusive relationship and sometimes people simply have to grow through their need to be abused.

Yea i've met a few of them, one of them slept on my couch for a year, he decided coke is more important than paying rent. When someone finds you a job, get you there and buys your cigs and alcohol, and teaches you all the stuff your parents should have.

My dilemma stems from me being helped so much in life that I feel I have to return the favor on anyone who I see can actually use it, and needs it. I've worked on a lot of people, and I can relate to this person because they remind me of myself, to the tee, sometimes people are dealt a shitty hand and can only cope, and they need that push.

College kids... y u so silly

You can help her without having sex with her. But you don't really want to take that route. Also, your girlfriend is kidding herself when she says she doesn't mind and is probably easily swayed by your line of reasoning. Your dick isn't magic, it isn't going to teach her how to be independent. Nor will a "relationship" born out of the need to "help" someone. You know what will though? Helping her figure things out for herself, improving her self esteem, pointing her towards the countless resources made available for people in her situation, suggesting that she check out the myriad of dating/relationship blogs/sites available on the web - so that she can learn how to cultivate the personality and independence needed to find her version of "Mr. Right" on her own, etc.

Is that more difficult than simply "fucking her?" Of course it is. Is it a better way to handle the situation? Of course it fucking is.

God damn hippies.

You sound like a cult leader...That is all.

Gavin you make a lot of sense, and yes, that would be the best course of action. But i hardly see how my train of thought has anything to do with me being in college, nor am I a hippie. I also think I should rephrase it, my girlfriend has given me understanding, however, whether or not she has a problem with it isn't my problem. Nor do I ever plan on sleeping with the poor girl, would it have been better if I said, I would provide the emotional and physical support she may or may not need?

Now, chimp on the other hand, i think, has a good observation as well. Keen eye my good sir. But cult leader, that's just kinda blunt and has a lot of stigmas attached.

Just to clarify: her current boyfriend is a drug drealer. And you are not going to turn him in to the police to get him off her back because ...?

Because then he'd be a narc. You do not narc.

Ok, how how about contacting someone who works at either a shelter for abused women or an organizer of narcotics anonymous, and without naming your friend, describe the situation and ask what if anything they suggest you could do to help? Although I suspect that they would tell you that there is little you can do if she does not really want to be helped, and unless I misunderstood what you wrote, it sounds like she may not be ready to accept or seek out help yet.

Well, I had remedied the situation, however, a week without my intervention she's back to square one, so fuck it. He'll get a nice visit by some officers in a month or two, and she can piece her own life back together, I'm done. Some people just need to be caged.

K well it sounds like this issue is settled so I'm going to lock the thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Original Poster

K well it sounds like this issue is settled so I'm going to lock the thread.

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:chuckle:


Nhuc,

I have been trying to get this issue straight. Let me try to do a recap.

1. There is this girl with issues who dates a drug dealer who abuses her.
2. You want to have sex with her... for her own good.
3. Your girlfriend has given you the okay for this.
4. You are wondering what to do.

Is that pretty much the story? I still don't understand how sleeping with her would help her. I think it would screw up your relationship with your girlfriend whether she sees that as a possibility now or not, get the girl with issues really in love with you to the point that she will become many times the issue she is now, and probably result in you getting your ass beaten in by drug dealers. I really don't see how it could be a good plan.