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    Thread: DreamViews Dead?

    1. #51
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      That's the thing Sageous, it is our site. You and many others have created this site with our content. The host does not own us or our brains. Unfortunately, this site has not been in the hands of someone actually interested in lding for quite some time. That might be too much to ask and in DV's current state, the ideal will probably never come to fruition. You may be more interested in lding than community and that is fine. But DV is specifically made for community. It is that community which has allowed you to teach others about your topic of interest. Without the collective contribution of this community, you would have nowhere to take your knowledge. If you were to take that to its logical conclusion, you should not be here because DV is a community. All you need is your own personal lding journey. But that is not the way it goes is it. You crave community, sharing, appreciation, validation, etc. as much as the rest of us.


      So...Solution you say. Yes of course. I have mentioned so many solutions, and they have been ignored. Others suggest things without being as direct as I might be and have been ignored. So...Solution? We need admins that care about the members here. All the power is concentrated at the top. That is how DV is structured as are most websites which is totally fine. It is totally fine until you have people who stifle growth and create a toxic environment for any kind of change.

      I have said all these things before. I outlined several solutions to DV's overall and specific challenges in the post that was deleted. Why would the admins delete the post? Why would the discussion be stifled? Well, I could tell you, but then the rule book would be thrown at me. Whenever these issues boil to the surface, which they do every now and again, they are immediately shoved back down.

      The change you are going to see is in a couple years DV will either be up for sale or shutdown. That is the solution keebali will have for the site.

      In summary: There is a distinct lack of understanding when it comes to the operation of a social structure in the current leadership. This has precipitated a loss of community. Its that simple. Those who have been involved enough to see that either aren't willing to say anything for whatever reason, or have moved on to a different site. They would rather spend their time and effort in something worthwhile than fighting what they see is a losing battle. Its unfortunate but true. Some of the longest serving members of DV are currently on sites that are DV's top competition. DV is losing to their competition at an incredible rate. Those at the controls here just don't seem to care enough to find solutions or step out of the way so others can do what they were incapable of doing.

      It would probably take a concentrated effort by several non staff members to turn this situation around. Staff keep the cogs turning, but they don't make the content that the cogs move. It would take a change in leadership, something I suggested last year which is typical of these circumstances in the business and political world. I know this may be a controversial statement and I understand that most people might not even think it justified. Truth is in reality, those in power who have failed in their responsibilities must be overwhelmed by power outside of themselves. When there is a popular uproar over someones performance, they are forced out. I doubt this would happen at DV since most of our community power has left, but all the same that is the solution.
      I am not here to assassinate anyone's character, just to point out the truth. That will probably get me into trouble, but then life would be boring if you didn't stand up for anything wouldn't it....
      Timothy Paradox likes this.

    2. #52
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      I'm not arguing, because your opinion is certainly valid, but:

      Quote Originally Posted by Chimpertainment View Post
      That's the thing Sageous, it is our site. You and many others have created this site with our content. The host does not own us or our brains.
      No, it is not our site. What is ours is our decision to spend uncounted hours parked in front of a machine, handing our time and knowledge over to someone else. That that someone else currently allows that input to be shared in a pleasant, workable context is a good thing, but that allowance is not of our doing. Yes, we are literally creating the content of the site, but like it or not we're playing in someone else's backyard in the process.

      Unfortunately, this site has not been in the hands of someone actually interested in lding for quite some time.
      Funny thing, Chimp: what you are discussing on this thread has nothing to do with LD'ing, but with the non-dreaming, community-oriented forums. From what I've seen, the dreaming forums are as good as or better than they ever were in terms of content, access, quality of presentation, and, yes, moderation and administration. The owner of this site has done nothing to quell the LD'ing discussion, and I have seen no real change due to the absence of old-timers (there is less talk of useless things like SP, and less "it's true because I said so" attitudes" these days, though I don't really equate those very good things with missing talent).

      Indeed, given your extremely rare appearances on the dreaming forums (which is a shame, because I invariably enjoy your posts), I could almost get the impression that you are not terribly interested in LD'ing; should we really be taking your advice, if that is the case?

      You may be more interested in lding than community and that is fine. But DV is specifically made for community. It is that community which has allowed you to teach others about your topic of interest.
      No. It is the existence and maintenance of the site that has allowed me to teach others (and learn from them) about my topic of interest. For me it has been much more an exchange than a community. My "students" come and go, with very few I can consider "regulars" on my threads, and I do not consider myself a regular on anyone else's thread (indeed, I often get the feeling, like here, that my thoughts are incongruous and not very welcome).

      By its nature, the DV forum might be a community-oriented social-network sort of service, but for me it seems much more the old bulletin-board service -- simply a place to put my thoughts, and read the thoughts that others have pinned up. Should someone remove that bulletin board, as has happened before (the Lucidity Institute once had an excellent forum, until its owner -- believe it or not -- saw the the whole emerging community thing as an obstacle to LD development and shut it down), then I will indeed either move on or with great relief come to my senses and stop spending so much time writing things nobody reads.

      Without the collective contribution of this community, you would have nowhere to take your knowledge.
      No.

      My knowledge worked just fine for decades before I was here, and likely would be just as portable without DV. I do do other things than type on a website, and with no offense intended toward DV, those other things have done far more to expand my knowledge than these forums have. And, though I'll admit that some primordial need to share/teach might push me to keep showing up at DV, I would get along just fine without it, and I would take my knowledge to other places -- other forums, back to writing books, or perhaps just back into myself, where the dreaming truly resides anyway.

      Knowledge does not require the internet, and progressing in LD'ing does not require DV's. Though both are excellent tools for growth, they certainly are not the only tools for growth. I believe you know that.

      Also, As LaBerge discovered at TLI, sometimes community actually gets in the way of knowledge. For instance, most of my work (and hopefully impact) here at DV has been in anti-teaching: convincing dreamers to shake off much of the shit they've accumulated on these forums, to help them unlearn albeit cool, but often very incorrect ideas (like the validity of SP) which are passed around among members until the community accepts them as truth.

      ...you were to take that to its logical conclusion, you should not be here because DV is a community.
      I have that thought every day, without fail.

      I have never had a sense of belonging here, and I do indeed wonder, quite often and sometimes aloud, why I bother. Though it is likely that urge to teach, the consistent hope that something new, something I need to know, will appear on the forums today is probably the real magnet for me.

      And one day All you need is your own personal lding journey.
      This is already absolutely correct.

      That I am still willing or able to share that personal journey, and believe that there is more to be learned, is also correct, though, and why I still show up -- I'm not sure that fits your herding-instinct definition of community, but its as close as I'll get.

      But that is not the way it goes is it. You crave community, sharing, appreciation, validation, etc. as much as the rest of us.
      No.

      Please don't assume for me what I crave, Chimp; and don't assume that just because you crave something, then everyone else does too. I do appreciate the benefits from sharing, and I do like validation when it comes in the form of my knowledge being picked up and appreciated by someone else, but I really do not need to feel validated or appreciated (that drives my wife nuts, BTW).

      It honestly takes a bit of an effort for me to write on these forums, and my reasons for making that effort lie much more deeply in my own need to develop myself than it does to belong in a community -- I have never belonged, and have never (okay, very rarely) cared about not belonging. I would appreciate it if you would not lump me in with the rest of the herd, and also that you would not assume to know me at all (because if you did, you would not have said that).

      So...Solution you say. Yes of course. I have mentioned so many solutions, and they have been ignored.
      Is there an emoticon for thumb rubbing gently against forefinger, playing the world's smallest violin?

      Seriously, Chimp, why should your solutions be considered, much less heeded? This place is not a democracy, and the community that feeds from its pages does so, like it or not, at the pleasure of the owner, and not by the power of the community's need to exist. Yes, it would be very nice if the owner listened to you and altered his format to make all our lives happier and more comfortable; and maybe he will, who knows? But if he doesn't that is his decision, not ours.

      So...Solution? We need admins that care about the members here.
      In my experience, the admins, particularly Ophelia and Gab, have done a great job caring about us; that care coming in the form of doing a fine job moderating the forums (actually allowing far more than I did, back when I moderated a similar forum), tirelessly answering the same damn questions over and over, encouraging newbies, welcoming new knowledge that might not jibe with what's already here, and dealing with threads like these in a diplomatic nature.... and they do it all free of charge, God help them. I think they are doing all they can do, given that they are operating within the confines of someone else's realm.

      All the power is concentrated at the top. That is how DV is structured as are most websites which is totally fine. It is totally fine until you have people who stifle growth and create a toxic environment for any kind of change.
      What power? This is a minor website, nearly lost in the cloud of information we all float through every day. This is not some mighty regime or existent community that must be properly governed. It is a website that a guy thought it would be cool and modestly profitable to own a few years back, and likely a website that he will sell someday to some other guy with the same idea, or new plans altogether. Any "power" wielded here probably comes as an afterthought to a guy who is doing many other things in his life... he probably doesn't even realize he is wielding power at all. And therein lies the solution, I think: If we were all to simply concentrate on discussing dreaming, and listening to each other with interest and civility, we all could very likely get along as a community without ever even caring about the rules of the site... and in its ideal state that sort of interchange will likely cause the community to grow.

      I have said all these things before. I outlined several solutions to DV's overall and specific challenges in the post that was deleted. Why would the admins delete the post? Why would the discussion be stifled? Well, I could tell you, but then the rule book would be thrown at me. Whenever these issues boil to the surface, which they do every now and again, they are immediately shoved back down.
      I'm in deed of that thumb & forefinger emoticon again Chimp. Get over yourself. I've been here almost as long as you, have had my share of dust-ups with other members, have openly expressed my opinion to the mods many times, and have never seen a post deleted. Perhaps you are simply assuming a bit too much ownership of this place, and that assumption is pissing off the admins? I don't know. But if you stop trying to make everything better -- or, rather, more conducive to your own ideals -- and simply used this site as the platform for exchanging knowledge about dreaming that it was meant to be, you might find the People in Power up there a little easier to live with.

      The change you are going to see is in a couple years DV will either be up for sale or shutdown. That is the solution keebali will have for the site.
      Okay. That not only makes sense, but it sort of reflects the natural order of things. Should I still be here when DV is sold, or shutdown, I will be annoyed because I would have to find a new forum, or perhaps relieved that my time will suddenly be better spent. I would not, however, be angry because someone had the audacity to destroy my community. I was, after all, using Keebali's site, with the full understanding that he was presenting it for my use (and for his profits), and not presenting it because he was obliged to fulfill my needs or the the needs of the LD'ing community... to assume he is obliged to serve us seems remarkably arrogant, I think.

      In summary: There is a distinct lack of understanding when it comes to the operation of a social structure in the current leadership. This has precipitated a loss of community. Its that simple. Those who have been involved enough to see that either aren't willing to say anything for whatever reason, or have moved on to a different site. They would rather spend their time and effort in something worthwhile than fighting what they see is a losing battle. Its unfortunate but true. Some of the longest serving members of DV are currently on sites that are DV's top competition. DV is losing to their competition at an incredible rate. Those at the controls here just don't seem to care enough to find solutions or step out of the way so others can do what they were incapable of doing.
      Okay. That too is the nature of things.

      My general summary is this: if the owner of this site doesn't give a crap about it, and has chosen or been driven by ignorance to destroy the DV community (and thus his site's success), then this site will decay and we will eventually all move on. Though we did indeed create all of its content, none of us hold an actual stake in this place, Chimp, and the best we can do as a community is keep that content alive and interesting enough to attract new members and maybe invite the return of older members. The rest is up to Keebali.

      It would probably take a concentrated effort by several non staff members to turn this situation around. Staff keep the cogs turning, but they don't make the content that the cogs move. It would take a change in leadership, something I suggested last year which is typical of these circumstances in the business and political world. I know this may be a controversial statement and I understand that most people might not even think it justified. Truth is in reality, those in power who have failed in their responsibilities must be overwhelmed by power outside of themselves. When there is a popular uproar over someones performance, they are forced out. I doubt this would happen at DV since most of our community power has left, but all the same that is the solution.
      I am not here to assassinate anyone's character, just to point out the truth. That will probably get me into trouble, but then life would be boring if you didn't stand up for anything wouldn't it....
      Here's a solution, Chimp: why not just put together a consortium of interested community members and buy out Keebali? Make the place ours, truly. Then you can see that we are properly lead, right? ...

      Okay, that's about all I got, and far more than I had intended to say. Sorry in advance if I offended you at all, Chimp, as that was not intended.
      OpheliaBlue, Sivason, Alex and 2 others like this.

    3. #53
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      Thanks Sageous. I can't add a thing to that.

      If I don't reply again to any of this, it's because I'm about to go on my Birthday-Vacay-Gone-Cray-Cray!! I'll be back Tuesday, but I imagine by then this thread will have been locked. And for good reason. Fuck it I'm locking it now. If that makes me a horrible admin, feel free to unlock it staff and continue the discussion. I'm just going to be too busy enjoying life for the next 4 days, than worrying about the outcome of this thread.

    4. #54
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      With threads like this, staff, even admins, don't acts without getting at least a second opinion. Locking was a staff decision.

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