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    Thread: An Unpopular Opinion on the Lucid Dreaming Competition.

    1. #26
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      The definition of "many" can be found in any dictionary. Misguided purposes include any desires of the ego to fulfill some kind of sensual pleasure that is unrelated to the desire for genuine spiritual growth.

    2. #27
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      Quote Originally Posted by VinceField View Post
      Then again, putting the ego aside and seeing the activity (in this case, lucid dreaming) for its true value and cultivating the desire to better oneself through this means, the person will have all the motivation they need to engage in a successful LD practice without having the need to feed their ego.
      And where does fun factor into your worldview? I fully believe in analyzing my own actions—that's a key to self-awareness—but sometimes it's wiser to accept that I'm doing an activity purely to take care of myself, rather than to better myself or feed into a nobler goal. I can take the energy I gain from a lucid dreaming practice and feed that energy into making an impact on the world, and the lives of the people who are important to me. That's enough for me.

      Quote Originally Posted by VinceField View Post
      Intentions are probably the most important aspect to any action.
      Our philosophies aren't aligned here. That doesn't mean that the path you walk is wrong for you, or that the path I walk is wrong for me.

      I pick up a half-eaten copy of a book by Neil Gaiman, and decide this is all his fault.

    3. #28
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      "Many" can be either "a lot" or "the majority". Would you consider my desire to have an epic swordfight with magic powers, or my desire to become the character of my favorite video games, to change landscapes because it's cool, or to simply have company from imaginary people (nice girls, in my case), desires of the ego? These are not directly related to spiritual growth, but they help me in having a peace of mind. So if you maximize every action for spiritual growth, having epic swordfights or cuddling with pretty girls is not the right thing to do. But I wouldn't consider these actions and/or desires as obstacles for my spiritual growth. What do you think about this?

      I remember our previous discussions Vince, and I just wanted to say that I think I am approaching this with a different state of mind now. Previously I was more about attacking you and what you said and pointing out where you were wrong (though "wrong" is too weak a word to describe what I felt about your views ), which was the wrong way to go about it. I think that now I am coming at you with nothing but curiosity and an open mind
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    4. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by Samael View Post
      And where does fun factor into your worldview?
      Fun is a big part of my life and I believe an important aspect of self improvement and spiritual growth. The path is fun. Progress is fun. Fun can be found in the smallest things with the right perspective. One does not need to succumb to the ego's fantasies and desires for sensual pleasure to enjoy life. There is a pleasure that is far more fulfilling that comes with cultivating wholesome and pure states of mind that no sense pleasure can touch- this includes physical and nonphysical (lucid dreaming) senses.

      I fully believe in analyzing my own actions—that's a key to self-awareness—but sometimes it's wiser to accept that I'm doing an activity purely to take care of myself, rather than to better myself or feed into a nobler goal.
      I don't see a difference between taking care of oneself and bettering oneself or working towards a noble goal. In fact, if one is not working to better oneself or striving towards noble purposes, one is not really taking care of oneself at all.

      I can take the energy I gain from a lucid dreaming practice and feed that energy into making an impact on the world, and the lives of the people who are important to me. That's enough for me.
      I'd be interested to hear a real world example of this.

      Our philosophies aren't aligned here. That doesn't mean that the path you walk is wrong for you, or that the path I walk is wrong for me.
      In one sense, one's path can only be wrong if it does not bring them to the desired destination. In another sense, one may be misguided in choosing the destination to begin with.

    5. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ginsan View Post
      "Many" can be either "a lot" or "the majority". Would you consider my desire to have an epic swordfight with magic powers, or my desire to become the character of my favorite video games, to change landscapes because it's cool, or to simply have company from imaginary people (nice girls, in my case), desires of the ego?
      Yes, I would say those are desires of the ego. A temporary and ultimately unsatisfactory means to peace and happiness.

      These are not directly related to spiritual growth, but they help me in having a peace of mind. So if you maximize every action for spiritual growth, having epic swordfights or cuddling with pretty girls is not the right thing to do. But I wouldn't consider these actions and/or desires as obstacles for my spiritual growth. What do you think about this?
      I think the more you focus on the sword fights, the less you focus on investing your time and energy into practices that more effectively bring the changes you are seeking.

      I remember our previous discussions Vince, and I just wanted to say that I think I am approaching this with a different state of mind now. Previously I was more about attacking you and what you said and pointing out where you were wrong (though "wrong" is too weak a word to describe what I felt about your views ), which was the wrong way to go about it. I think that now I am coming at you with nothing but curiosity and an open mind
      That's great man, I did notice this and I think your new attitude is awesome and far more beneficial.
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    6. #31
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      Now that we're totes off the rails anyways, I've stumbled onto a philosophical quandary I'd be thrilled to have Vince address.

      If one continuously pursues, achieves, and maintains egoistic pursuits that bring a sense of peace, happiness, and fulfillment. Then could you not say that one leads a peaceful, happy, fulfilling life? If so, what greater value can one expect from life if one instead forsakes egoistic desires, assuming such a path also brings a sense of peace, happiness, and fulfillment?
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    7. #32
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      Quote Originally Posted by Mzzkc View Post
      Now that we're totes off the rails anyways, I've stumbled onto a philosophical quandary I'd be thrilled to have Vince address.

      If one continuously pursues, achieves, and maintains egoistic pursuits that bring a sense of peace, happiness, and fulfillment. Then could you not say that one leads a peaceful, happy, fulfilling life? If so, what greater value can one expect from life if one instead forsakes egoistic desires, assuming such a path also brings a sense of peace, happiness, and fulfillment?
      The problem with egoistic pursuits is that they are almost always based on sense desires and usually rely on the thoughts, opinions, actions, etc of others to some extent. These ego-rooted feelings of happiness do not last, and as I said, the results pale in comparison to the results of a genuine spiritual practice that allows one to cultivate wholesome mind states from within, largely independent of external conditions. These egoistic desires are rooted in attachments, and with attachment there is always a degree of stress and there is never a complete sense of peace and fulfillment, by the very nature of attachment. So while anyone can say that they lead a peaceful, happy, and fulfilling life, those who rely on that which is temporary and unsatisfactory for these good feelings do not truly experience them, they simply experience illusory versions of them. This becomes clear when genuine states of peace, happiness, and fulfillment are developed.

    8. #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by Mzzkc View Post
      Now that we're totes off the rails anyways
      Oh, 100%. But JadeGreen seemed pretty happy with the answer they got upthread.

      Quote Originally Posted by VinceField View Post
      These ego-rooted feelings of happiness do not last, and as I said, the results pale in comparison to the results of a genuine spiritual practice that allows one to cultivate wholesome mind states from within
      So, simply put, you follow this version of the Jedi Code:

      There is no emotion, there is peace.
      There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
      There is no passion, there is serenity.
      There is no chaos, there is harmony.
      There is no death, there is the Force.
      And I follow this one:

      Emotion, yet peace.
      Ignorance, yet knowledge.
      Passion, yet serenity.
      Chaos, yet harmony.
      Death, yet the Force.
      Or from a non-fictional source:

      Quote Originally Posted by Parker Palmer
      As you integrate ignorance and failure into your knowledge and success, do the same with all the alien parts of yourself. Take everything that’s bright and beautiful in you and introduce it to the shadow side of yourself. Let your altruism meet your egotism, let your generosity meet your greed, let your joy meet your grief. Everyone has a shadow… But when you are able to say, “I am all of the above, my shadow as well as my light,” the shadow’s power is put in service of the good. Wholeness is the goal, but wholeness does not mean perfection, it means embracing brokenness as an integral part of your life. (Source)
      You asked for an example of the way that I put the energy from my lucid dreaming practice into the world, but that's just it. It's a practice that lets me generate creative energy and working momentum, in the same way that exercising lets me strengthen my muscles and manage my chronic pain. Everything that I do benefits from the practice.
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      I pick up a half-eaten copy of a book by Neil Gaiman, and decide this is all his fault.

    9. #34
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      Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
      Last edited by Sensei; 08-24-2015 at 06:37 PM.
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    10. #35
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      And through my passions, I gain strength.

      I walk the path that embraces both the light and the dark. Must be why I love Midsummer.

      I pick up a half-eaten copy of a book by Neil Gaiman, and decide this is all his fault.

    11. #36
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      You gain strength through your passions? Really?

      Thats amazing Samael, my passions last for days at most. What gives me strength is a healthy breathing habit, a healthy diet, a good night's rest. Also music occasionally and recently my curiosity for philosophy and psychology has been a great source of strength.
      Last edited by Ginsan; 08-24-2015 at 07:09 PM.

    12. #37
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      Haha. I know I am not contributing very much by just throwing in sith code.

      Y'all should open another thread though.
      Last edited by Sensei; 08-24-2015 at 07:12 PM.

    13. #38
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      Sensei, what exactly do you mean by "peace is a lie, there is only passion"?

      I have to challenge you on this, I can't stand it when people throw around vacuous statements like that.

    14. #39
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      Ginsan. I actually am a Christian and believe in the Bible, so I don't really need to post here. You probably know what I believe and what I would post. If you want to talk to me, PM me and we can have a one on one convo.

      Peace is a lie, there is only passion is just the Sith Code. I love star wars with a passion and couldn't help but throw it out when I see the Jedi code. (Though both are very flawed ideas, which is why the galaxy goes to crap without a 'balance').

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      "I believe...." Is not an argument.

    16. #41
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      Quote Originally Posted by Samael View Post
      So, simply put, you follow this version of the Jedi Code:
      No, that is not my "code." Some pretty big leaps have been made to arrive at that conclusion. No worries.

      Regarding embracing and integrating "brokenness," recognizing and accepting one's harmful tendencies is the first step towards positive and beneficial change. But I believe it is a mistake to leave this "brokenness" as it is when it can be eradicated or transformed into something better, something more beneficial to oneself and others, something that results in pure and wholesome mind states rather than harmful ones.
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    17. #42
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ginsan View Post
      "I believe...." Is not an argument.
      We're not really arguing, so much as throwing around our various philosophies in life at this point.

      Quote Originally Posted by VinceField View Post
      No, that is not my "code." Some pretty big leaps have been made to arrive at that conclusion.
      I didn't mean it as a conclusion so much as an allegory to illustrate where both of us were coming from, specifically on the "emotion" versus "peace" line. Like Sensei said, these fictional systems were written to deliberately have flaws that the writers could draw on.

      VinceField, could you start a new thread and we can jump in? We've probably derailed this discussion enough.

      I pick up a half-eaten copy of a book by Neil Gaiman, and decide this is all his fault.

    18. #43
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      Quote Originally Posted by Samael View Post
      We're not really arguing, so much as throwing around our various philosophies in life at this point.
      Yes, but even when throwing around your philosophy you have to give arguments for it, if you want to be part of an intelligible conversation. I can go around saying "I believe in torturing and eating children because my belief says that it's the most beautiful thing you could possibly do", but this is kind of talk is absolutely devoid of any content. If I have no arguments, I might as well have said nothing at all.

    19. #44
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      Quote Originally Posted by Samael View Post
      VinceField, could you start a new thread and we can jump in? We've probably derailed this discussion enough.
      A mod will split it off eventually, I'm sure. =P

      Quote Originally Posted by VinceField View Post
      These ego-rooted feelings of happiness do not last, and as I said, the results pale in comparison to the results of a genuine spiritual practice that allows one to cultivate wholesome mind states from within, largely independent of external conditions.
      I don't buy it. Who's to say the joy someone gets from a relaxing walk in the park while holding hands with a loved one is any greater than some vague notion of self-derived happiness? And who's to say a life continuously filled with such moments is any less fulfilling than a life without them? Though one may draw their happiness from external, ego-driven experiences, in the end, both are content. So why is the way you propose so superior?

      You say (emphasis mine):
      Quote Originally Posted by VinceField View Post
      The problem with egoistic pursuits is that they are almost always based on sense desires and usually rely on the thoughts, opinions, actions, etc of others to some extent.
      Even you are unsure. If a life filled with egoistic pursuit leads only to dissatisfaction and unwholesomeness, then I would think there'd be no room for the bolded words above.

      Maybe I'm being slightly pedantic, and forgive me if that's the case, but I'm not yet convinced.

      Quote Originally Posted by VinceField View Post
      These egoistic desires are rooted in attachments, and with attachment there is always a degree of stress and there is never a complete sense of peace and fulfillment, by the very nature of attachment.
      This point seems tenuous at best. Would you suggest I forgo reading so as to avoid growing attached to characters with whom I will inevitably part ways as I close the pages and set down the book? Is it not better to have known someone--to have grown close to another being--and then lose them, than to have never grown attached at all? What sort of life is that? To deny yourself any attachments, all for the sake of some heretofore unexplained spiritual path of wholesomeness and peace?

      That reminds me of the utter hell I perceive the Christian heaven to be. Sitting around in an eternal, vegged out state of bliss, unable to think new thoughts or experience anything except that numbing happiness for the rest of time--past even the heat-death of the universe. To me, that's arguably more horrifying than non-existence...but it's not nearly as unappealing as living a life void of the things I enjoy most. After all, Christian doctrine allows you to get away with pretty much anything you want in this life. Hell, even murder is considered a-okay, so long as you ask for forgiveness.

      But I digress.

      Quote Originally Posted by VinceField View Post
      So while anyone can say that they lead a peaceful, happy, and fulfilling life, those who rely on that which is temporary and unsatisfactory for these good feelings do not truly experience them, they simply experience illusory versions of them. This becomes clear when genuine states of peace, happiness, and fulfillment are developed.
      As a bit of a closet audiophile, I often think the same of people who listen to music on the old stock Apple buds. "If they just gave a decent set of headphones a chance, they would experience music the way it was always meant to be experienced!" But what I've learned over the years, is that people are genuinely content with what they know and what they're comfortable with. And if what they have now is perfectly acceptable, and bringing them happiness, why try to push them along a different path?
      Last edited by Mzzkc; 08-24-2015 at 09:17 PM.
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    20. #45
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      Mzzkc, I think that you hit my main concerns with the whole idea of Buddhism. I often think "if I meditate enough and nothing matters, I will be happy no matter how much suffering exists in the world, therefor, I should be careful not to meditate too much". But this is a false concern. Your sense of well-being can be detached from everything, you can be at peace regardless of what's happening in the world. But that doesn't make you unable to care for others, you can try to make the world a better place without being tormented by huge amounts of empathy.

      "And who's to say a life continuously filled with such moments is any less fulfilling than a life without them?" I think that this is your main point, am I right? Ofcourse a life continuously filled with such moments is great, it's better than the lives of the vast majority of people. But if you are depending on things like music, friendship, health, sex, taking a walk while holding hands with your lover, you are in trouble. Because the moment those things are taken away from you, or that possibility exists, you are threatened. Every time the things that you enjoy are taken away from you, you become less happy. When a friend dies, when you get ill, when a relationship falls apart, or even when any of these things are about to happen, you are grieved, you become frustrated and you lose your peace of mind. But this is not necessary, you can have a peace of mind, while enjoying these things, but you do not have to become attached to them. It does not have to disturb your peace of mind when you lose something that makes you happy. You only need to observe your mind and see for yourself that these pleasures are transient and depending on them will inevitably cause you unhappiness.

      Vince, did I get it right?
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    21. #46
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      Mzzkc

      My goal is not to convince you. I believe I have said everything that needs to be said for anyone with an open mind to see where I am coming from. Some of the points you've made or questions you've raised have actually already been answered in my previous posts, while others express a misunderstanding of what I have said. If you ever really want to understand what I am coming from, do some research into Buddhism, or better yet, give the practice a shot. Maybe you will gain the first hand experience of the concepts I have shared, as I have. Take care.
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    22. #47
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      Vince, with all due respect, I would like to point out that that's a cop out. You like to improve yourself, right? You could have tried to rephrase your arguments, maybe you can plant a seed for spiritual interest in him. I see this as a challenge to my ability to explain my view more clearly. If I can't, I'm either wrong, or I am just bad at explaining things.
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    23. #48
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ginsan View Post
      Your sense of well-being can be detached from everything, you can be at peace regardless of what's happening in the world. But that doesn't make you unable to care for others, you can try to make the world a better place without being tormented by huge amounts of empathy.
      Well said good sir!

      "And who's to say a life continuously filled with such moments is any less fulfilling than a life without them?" I think that this is your main point, am I right? Ofcourse a life continuously filled with such moments is great, it's better than the lives of the vast majority of people. But if you are depending on things like music, friendship, health, sex, taking a walk while holding hands with your lover, you are in trouble. Because the moment those things are taken away from you, or that possibility exists, you are threatened. Every time the things that you enjoy are taken away from you, you become less happy. When a friend dies, when you get ill, when a relationship falls apart, or even when any of these things are about to happen, you are grieved, you become frustrated and you lose your peace of mind. But this is not necessary, you can have a peace of mind, while enjoying these things, but you do not have to become attached to them. It does not have to disturb your peace of mind when you lose something that makes you happy. You only need to observe your mind and see for yourself that these pleasures are transient and depending on them will inevitably cause you unhappiness.

      Vince, did I get it right?
      Man, you really hit the nail on the head Ginsan. Thank you for compensating for my laziness by elaborating on these points. I was trying to avoid a drawn out debate, but it seems you've taken care of business!

      Quote Originally Posted by Ginsan View Post
      Vince, with all due respect, I would like to point out that that's a cop out. You like to improve yourself, right? You could have tried to rephrase your arguments, maybe you can plant a seed for spiritual interest in him. I see this as a challenge to my ability to explain my view more clearly. If I can't, I'm either wrong, or I am just bad at explaining things.
      I know, I copped out. I've been down this road before many times, and more times than not, it just leads to me repeating myself and others maintaining their original viewpoint. You can only rephrase so many times before you're just wasting everyone's time. I do believe it is important to plant these "spiritual seeds" as you say, and I believe my original statements did just this, even though they were met with resistance. I'm not sure if your elaboration will make a difference, and if it does, that is awesome. Personally, I've reached a point where I have little interest in pushing my views beyond providing a clear explanation. Take it or leave it. Being content with others expressing doubt or disagreement with my perspective has proven to be extremely liberating. Of course, I try to help when I believe my advice may be of use, but letting go of the need to measure up to the scrutiny of others is a giant leap in the right direction in terms of cultivating genuine peace and happiness. This does not mean the questions and doubts of others are ignored or suppressed, it simply means they are allowed to disagree and the ego doesn't feel the need to prove itself.
      Last edited by VinceField; 08-24-2015 at 10:07 PM.
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    24. #49
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      Heheheh = D My criticism was posted while you were writing that post (#48), but it seems to have been unnecessary since you have acknowledged your laziness already I'm glad to have hit the nail right on the head.

      Regarding your edit, I have to deal with my frustrations of explaining things too. For example whenever I see how much cruelty is done to animals by the food industry, how much difference people could make to the people who are starving and getting sick in developing countries by donating a little bit of money (instead of spending thousands on useless things), I immediately want to go and convince everybody I know. It could have a huge impact! But then I realise that this would only lead to my own frustration. So I need to keep a balance between not beating myself up because I could be doing more good, and my peace of mind. And whenever my peace of mind becomes less fragile, I make it possible for me to do more good in the world. I'm glad that this time my equanimity and my sense of what's good was not outweighed by frustration.

      Mzzkc, this is nothing personal, there is just something annoying about having to explain yourself, I hope you can relate.
      Last edited by Ginsan; 08-24-2015 at 10:07 PM.

    25. #50
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ginsan View Post

      Regarding your edit, I have to deal with my frustrations of explaining things too. For example whenever I see how much cruelty is done to animals by the food industry, how much difference people could make to the people who are starving and getting sick in developing countries by donating a little bit of money (instead of spending thousands on useless things), I immediately want to go and convince everybody I know. It could have a huge impact! But then I realise that this would only lead to my own frustration. So I need to keep a balance between not beating myself up because I could be doing more good, and my peace of mind. And whenever my peace of mind becomes less fragile, I make it possible for me to do more good in the world. I'm glad that this time my equanimity and my sense of what's good was not outweighed by frustration.
      The idea of importance that I wanted to convey was actually not about frustration, but rather, releasing the need to prove oneself. Because this need to be right or to convert others' thinking is usually the cause of the frustration you speak of, letting go of this alleviates any possible frustration, as well as the desire to engage in the activity that previously led to the frustration. But even if one was to engage in debate, the frustration would not arise despite how fruitless the discussion turned out to be. It's not about avoiding the frustration, it's about transcending it, eliminating its cause.

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