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    1. #1
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Who killed rock and roll?

      I have believed very strongly for a very long time that classic rock is hands down the greatest music there has ever been. Today's music is pathetic compared to what we had in the 70's and late 60's. So what happened? My theory is that MTV caused image to be more important than the music itself, so only supermodel looking people could get good music deals. The result of that is that the pool of musicians to choose from for recording deals shrank immensely, and the emphasis started getting put in the wrong places. The result was that the music really suffered. Would Janis Joplin be able to get famous in today's entertainment climate? I really don't think so. It's such a shame. Think of all of the great talent that will never make it big.

      When did music bite the dust? I pinpoint the year 1981. Do you know what else happened that year? The emergence of MTV, starting with the appropriately titled video "Video Killed the Radio Star" by The Buggles. Thus, my theory.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    2. #2
      Generic lucid dreamer Seeker's Avatar
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      1981 might have been the beginning of it. I remember when MTV first came on, the music videos were of the musicians playing their instruments. Remember Fleetwood Mac, 'Hold on to me'?

      Seems there was some good music through the 80's though, Scorpions being an example. I think Rap and then Hip-hop were contributing factors. I guess it is just cooler to see how many words you can rhyme with F*** than to listen to your fathers music.

      However, all is not lost. Although my daughter is into the new stuff, my son is a hardcode classic rock listener. All the old standards, Floyd, Kansas, Styx, Zepplin, Journey
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    3. #3
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Yeh, it's not really dead in the sense that it has been forgotten. I am just saying that no more is coming out.

      I love a lot of the heavy metal of the 80's. But I think the pop got worse and worse over the course of the decade. It still wasn't that bad in the early 80's, but it was, in my opinion, clearly worse than the music of the late 70's.

      And rap, uuuuuuggggggghhhhhhhh!!! When is that monotonous garbage going to finally go out of style? Every time I see a rap video on T.V., which is much more often than I would like, I say, "Oh, it's that video of a bunch of thugs standing around their cars and moving their hands in the air while they try to act tough and arrogant."

      Like you pointed out, classic rock lives on, but rock of that type or on that aesthetic level is not being created in significant amounts. I am a teacher, and every year, I bring up The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Fleetwood Mac, and other great acts of the past just to make sure at least some of the students are familiar with them. Fortunately, most of the students have heard of them, and there are always a few major fans. If that ever changes, I am going to bring my CD's to class and win over some recruits to make sure the legend lives on in their generation.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    4. #4
      FBI agent Ynot's Avatar
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      don't judge hip-hop on the commercial crap you see on MTV
      but it's a fact of life, that the gangsta rap and thug imagery side of hip-hip makes a lot of money
      80% of hip-hop sales come from white middle class kids
      musical preferences are one thing, but don't don't be so quick to tarnish the whole genre

      Hip-hop is a culture
      that culture was spawned from the black and hispanic sections of New York
      sections of society that held very little financial security or oppotunity for many of the kids growing up there.
      the music that came out was truer to the heart than any punk kiddie guitar band (genre bashing goes both ways )

      True hip-hop represents
      anti-violence (or rather, redirection of violence into competative dance)
      racial acceptance (which also goes both ways)
      and finally, self challenge
      no other performing art has a competitive spirit so finely ingrained as hip-hop
      it's that competitive spirit that drives the art form.

      As I said, musical preference is all well and good
      but there's good people out there, putting a lot of effort into hip-hop
      don't be so ready to sweep them under the carpet

      just a couple of small un-signed tracks I had lying around
      there's no copyright on these, save credit to the artists

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    5. #5
      FBI agent Ynot's Avatar
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      ooh, sorry
      forgot to say

      Who killed Rock & Roll?
      Gary Glitter
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    6. #6
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Woops, I hope I didn't offend a rap fan. I didn't use the term "hip hop". I used the term "rap". I am still confused about what the difference is, but it seems to me that hip hop encompasses more than just rap. Rap was much better in the early days. Run DMC, Grandmaster Flash, the Fat Boys, etc. were amusing and creative. They were partly about ego, but other things too. The rap that is all over the place today is mostly about ego, violence, and sociopathic attitudes. I don't care how straight from the heart it is, which I don't think it is any way. It encourages what I consider the black holocaust, black on black murder, which is a big problem in my city and my country. I live in Mississippi, which is the state with the second highest murder rate per capita in the United States, second to Louisiana. I live in the state capital, Jackson, which is the city behind that unfortunate statistic. The murder problem around here is something I take very seriously, and today's rap generally promotes it like there's no tomorrow. It's absolutely sickening. The last thing poor black youth need to hear is that they are nothing unless they are sociopathic. That's pressure that really hurts poor black communities, and it is the vibe I get from todays's rap, generally. There are exceptions, of course. I should mention that the vast majority of that vibe and the pressure it creates don't come from entertainment, but some of it does. I think gangster rap is more of a symptom than a cause, but it is still something I have a problem with.

      But more to my point, today's rap sucks musically (in my opinion). Every damn time, it's a bunch of thugs, or imitation thugs, simultaneously yelling a bunch of inaudible but obviously aggressive stuff about how bad ass they think they are. It has gotten very monotonous and unoriginal, and I am ready for it to go away.

      My objection to it has nothing to do with a problem with black people in general, only the ones that encourage the killing of the others while not sounding good. I love Motown, Jazz, and Delta Blues. Blues and Jazz were both invented within a few hundred miles of my apartment, as was rock and roll, which was all black in the beginning. Today's black music, in my opinion, is pathetic compared to the black music of the past.

      And Gary Glitter has some explaining to do!
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    7. #7
      FBI agent Ynot's Avatar
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      nah, you didn't offend me, mate
      no worries
      just trying to emphasise that gangsta rap is not (by any means) the true nature of hip-hop

      Rapper = vocal recording artist who makes and sells records

      MC (Master of Ceremonies) = live entertainer who can rock a crowd

      Hip-hop = all 4 performing arts elements working together (MC's / rappers, DJ's, B-Boys and Graff artists)

      anyway, back on topic.......

      Rock & roll used to be good
      but I really detest the whole male make-up, long greasy hair, tongue sticking out, kill your mum crappy bollocks rock
      bring back the guys in suits and ties playing acoustic, that was much more clean cut and presentable.

      and what is the fascination with effects pedals? - it seems it's ok to suck on the guitar, as long as it's horribly distorted and wah'ed the fuck out proportion.
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    8. #8
      Member TygrHawk's Avatar
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      I have to say that I'm encouraged. Over the past year or two, I have talked to many teenagers who are more and more into 70s and 80s rock -- Pink Floyd seems to be near the top of everyone's list, but they are also listening to Rush, Journey, Styx, Metallica, Alice Cooper, Scorpions, Def Leppard, Motley Crue, Heart, Van Halen, Judas Priest, etc. etc. etc. Seems to me that good taste in music is making a comeback.
      Wayne

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      Mynd you, mse bites Kan be pretty nasti...

    9. #9
      FBI agent Ynot's Avatar
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      Tommy Kinsman
      now there's proper music
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    10. #10
      Member InTheMoment's Avatar
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      Originally posted by Tygerhawk
      Seems to me that good taste in music is making a comeback.
      I sure hope that is true! Too many young people grow, up now a days, not realizing the contributions of such musical geniuses as the Polyphonics and other great musical pioneers.

      Hide the kids...Uncle ITM is back!
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    11. #11
      Member TygrHawk's Avatar
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      The guy on the bottom looks like Howard Cosell.
      Wayne

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      Mynd you, mse bites Kan be pretty nasti...

    12. #12
      DuB
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      Re: Who killed rock and roll?

      Originally posted by Ynot
      Hip-hop is a culture
      Exactly, and for this reason, it will never die. It will change, sure, but it's too closely linked to black culture as a whole to ever simply die out.

      As far as who killed classic rock, the answer is, of course, nobody. The shift away from classic rock music happened the same way it happens with all music:
      --As more and more classic rock style music was coming out, rock bands started to write differently in order to separate themselves from the crowd and be noticed. Another contributing factor is simply the changing times and people's tastes in music shifting.
      --Record companies know that the one of the keys to finding the \"next big band\" is to find a band that is novel (but not TOO novel! ), so they started giving their attention to these new, different rock bands.
      --The vast majority of music listeners (which is where the money lies), being only \"casual\" music listeners, only listen to what is on the radio and don't care to delve much deeper into the world of music. This same group of people tires relatively quickly of a certain kind of music and will begin to desire \"something new.\" They hear these new bands on the radio and buy their records.
      --These new bands become more and more successful until THEY become the \"standard.\" Eventually we find ourselves back at step 1.
      Thus, popular music evolves.
      (Edit: I should clarify that this applies to modern music, modern being since the invention of a means of mass distribution of music (near the beginning of the 20th century). Before that, music did change, of course, but it was much more static as compared to the rate popular music changes today. The modern music industry, along with huge advances in mass communication, cause popular music to shift much more rapidly nowadays.)
      Originally posted by Universal Mind
      My theory is that MTV caused image to be more important than the music itself, so only supermodel looking people could get good music deals. The result of that is that the pool of musicians to choose from for recording deals shrank immensely, and the emphasis started getting put in the wrong places. The result was that the music really suffered. Would Janis Joplin be able to get famous in today's entertainment climate? I really don't think so. It's such a shame. Think of all of the great talent that will never make it big.
      While I agree that the emergence of MTV did increase "good looks" as a factor in a band's ultimate success, I strongly disagree that this alone killed rock.

      Looks are much less a dependent factor in a Rock band's success then, say, a straight pop artist. Look at rock bands nowadays; most of them aren't exactly models! HOWEVER, looks are a factor to some degree, as they have always been. Looking back on popular classic rock, very few of these artists were particularly unattractive (Janis Joplin would be one of the exceptions ). Now, granted, they weren't models either; they were generally along the same standards as rock bands are nowadays, especially when you consider that the very image of what is "good looking" was different back then.

      So, in conclusion, I believe MTV to be only one of the many factors contributing to the "death" of classic rock, and a minor one at that.

    13. #13
      Member bradybaker's Avatar
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      Rock and roll is hurting, but it's certainly not dead.

      All you fogies are failing to recoginize that at some point in life, everything new becomes bad. It is the music you listen to right before this happens that will be what you listen to and cherish for the rest of your life.

      To prove this point, ask yourself, "Have I genuinely searched for any new bands to listen to in the past 10, 20 or 30 years? Or do I dismiss everything I hear on the radio and label it insipid trash concocted by the misguided youths that my generation gave birth to?"

      I suspect that the answer will be "No I have not searched, yes I do dismiss."

      For a lucky few here, the music you're stuck on is 60s and early 70s rock, for the unfortunate ones, its late 70s and 80s rock.

      I however, along with various others on this forum are lucky enough to still be at a point in their life where they are open to new bands and new types of music.

      To answer the question...I can't really speak for what killed rock in the late 70s and early 80s, but I know that bands like Nirvana and Pearl Jam signaled the return before Mariah Carey, bubblegum pop and boy bands called the whole thing off.

      In recent years, I actually credit a very unlikely source for bringing back a more rockin' sound into the mainstream.

      Avril Lavigne.

      While she is obviously still just pop-punk, sell out trash, she at least opened a large percentage of youths up into a more rockin' culture and killed off Britney Spears and the last of the boy bands. And this is where Nickelback, Staind, and all the other pop-grunge clones have found a place to settle.

      Not that I'm saying this is good or even respectable music, it's simply a reason not to despair.

      My point is that true rock is not found in the Top 40, it never has been, you guys should know that. Led Zeppelin only ever had one Top 10 song, and it didn't even go Number 1! The critics soundly trashed all of their albums. The greaet Bob Dylan was never a mainsteam hit.

      To find some decent rock n' roll turn off the radio and turn off MTV. Get yourself on the internet and tap into the vast number of independent record labels out there!

      Kids today don't know what the fuck they're talking about, their flavor of the week is decided by Time Warner and BMG executives in a board room every monday morning. And if you guys think that that's all that's out there now, you're the one with the problem, not them.

      Check out these artists:
      The Black Keys (spectacular two-piece blues-rock band that are often compared to Hendrix)
      Songs: 10am Automatic, Girl Is On My Mind, Stack Shot Billy

      Eagles of Death Metal (great side project of Joshua Homme, lead singer and guitarist of Queens of the Stone Age, I like to call it "boogie rock")
      Songs: Miss Alissa, Already Died

      Little Barrie (great indie band headed by guitar phenom Barrie Codegan, a soulful, funky rock album like few others)
      Songs: Burned Out, Long Hair

      The Clientele (you guys wish you were back in the 60s?, check these guys)
      Songs: Since K Got Over Me

      Death From Above 1979 (looking for something different to rock your socks off? This is a two-piece, drum & bass band, the drummer sings)
      Songs: Black History Month

      The Dirtbombs (great Detroit-garage rock)
      Songs: Underdog, Stop

      Gogol Bordello (vintage gypsy punk)
      Songs: Immigrant Punk, Dogs Were Barking

      Kings of Leon (hailed by many as 'the redneck version of the Rolling Stones", trust me, thats a good thing)
      Songs: Joe's Head, Four Kicks

      Sleater-Kinney (I'm sure some of you have heard of these girls. One word, "raw")
      Songs: What's Mine Is Yours, Entertain

      The White Stripes (sorry, I have to plug my favorite band, give em a chance, there's more to them than Seven Nation Army)
      Songs: Hello Operator, Girl You Have No Faith In Medicine, Red Rain, Offend In Every Way, Screwdriver

      With the exception of the Stripes (and possibly DFA1979), you will never hear these bands on the radio or see their videos on MTV.
      If you take the time to look, I assure you that there is good, solid rock 'n roll out there. But it's not going to come to you.
      "This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time."



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    14. #14
      Member Gezus's Avatar
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      bradybaker is right, black keys and white stripes kick ass btw. Nobody looks for anything less known anymore, that's why most people I know are into either old rock, the crappy pop of the new age, really bad gangsta rap, or the newer emo stuff. But there's more to it then that, I usually go on amazon.com and look up some bands that I like, and there are lists you can look fthrough on the side with at least one album by the artist you looked up. I have found plenty of people with the same taste in music as I, so I found a bunch of new bands through them. Although if you look up led zeppelin, you'll prolly only find lists with other old music on them
      "I hate to advocate drugs, sex, violence and insanity, but they've worked for me." -Hunter S. Thompson

    15. #15
      Member bradybaker's Avatar
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      Originally posted by Gezus
      I usually go on amazon.com and look up some bands that I like, and there are lists you can look fthrough on the side with at least one album by the artist you looked up.
      http://www.metacritic.com
      That site is a gold mine.
      "This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time."



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    16. #16
      DuB
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      Originally posted by bradybaker
      Led Zeppelin only ever had one Top 10 song, and it didn't even go Number 1! The critics soundly trashed all of their albums.
      As a die-hard Led Zeppelin fan, I must interject on this one point.

      The ONLY reason Led Zeppelin only ever had one Top 10 song is because they didn't like releasing singles. They didn't even release the famous "Stairway to Heaven" as a single. If we talk about albums, however, Led Zeppelin is the only band to have had all their albums reach the U.S. Billboard Top 10, and of these nine albums, six went to number one. And while it is true that critics "soundly trashed" Led Zeppelin's early albums (even though they were selling like hot cakes), they began to change their tune with the release of their famous, untitled fourth album. By the release of "Physical Graffiti," Led Zep was untouchable. Their last two albums, however, did receive some criticism from fans and critics alike.

      The fact is, Led Zeppelin was an IMMENSELY popular band, and in their height they were consistently selling out show after show on their massive world tours. Don't fool yourself into thinking that they were anything close to resembling "underground."

    17. #17
      FBI agent Ynot's Avatar
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      the constant search for new music is very addictive

      the constant search for original pressings of that music on vinyl is both addictive, time-consuming and only for the socially inept

      don't do it, kids
      just say no
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    18. #18
      Member bradybaker's Avatar
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      DuB: That was meant as a compliment for Led Zeppelin, not an insult.
      "This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time."



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    19. #19
      DuB
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      Originally posted by bradybaker
      DuB: That was meant as a compliment for Led Zeppelin, not an insult.
      I know that you weren't trying to diss the Zep However, like I said, as a die-hard fan I'm absolutely obliged to correct your mistaken views on their popularity. In fact, nearly all of the classic rock that lives on today was popular and "mainstream" at the time of it's release.

      So, I'm not at all going against your case as a whole, but I must correct you on one point; there was a time when "true rock" was found in the Top 40. 8)

    20. #20
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      Hey! I'm brand new here!

      I wanted to reply to your post about good bands... I think you need to consider adding Ashlee Simpson to that list.

      Listen to me before you burst out in laughter. Did you know that she writes all her own songs? and that her new album was praised by many rock critics? It has very unique guitar work not seen since the days of early ac/dc I read somewhere. But you probably already know this anyway... anyway, my bottom line, is that even though ashlee simpson is 'mainstream' (sort of) her work is as original as the bands you listed, if not more original and cutting edge.
      But you probably alread knew all of this, cause I can tell we're both into music big time, we probably share much of the same views and oppinions

    21. #21
      Member bradybaker's Avatar
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      Disregard anything airbus says. It's a friend of mine playing a prank on me, trying to draw me into a big argument..it almost worked.
      "This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time."



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    22. #22
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      excuse me? don't listen to what I have to say?
      I have never met you, or anyone on this board, I'm simply just trying to have an intelligent conversation and you disregard everything I have to say over some ridiculous claim?? that's upsetting to me. I thought people on this board were respectful of different oppinions and/or views, I really hope you don't represent the other people on this forum

    23. #23
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Y'all made some really good points (Although I can't say I am into Ashlee Simpson, but I respect strong musical appreciation. I promise I will give Ashlee Simpson another look. Brady, do you live in Ottowa?). Dub, there's a lot of truth to your theory.

      A lot of people might completely shut their minds to new music, but I don't. I am always looking for music I have never come across before, new and old. I have watched MTV and VH1 on a regular basis since they came on the air. I like the White Stripes and some other new bands. Have you ever heard of Pig Destroyer? They are very new, and they are one of the best speed metal bands ever. I also really like Kitty and Slipknot. My point is that in looking at so much new music, and even really appreciating some of it, nobody comes close to the level of The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Jefferson Airplane, Janis Joplin, The Doors, Fleetwood Mac, Jethro Tull, Yes, The Grateful Dead, and lots of others. That music, in my opinion at least, is far out of the league of what we have today. I really wish it would get that good again.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    24. #24
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      Hey, I'm probably the youngest one posting on this thread, at 14, I would like to think I have a very defined musical taste. I'm big on the 70s/80s, but there is one artist I absolutely must mention (especially the drummers).
      Cited from the book "Blink":
      "'I was blown away' Kallman remembers. 'I thought, I've got to meet this guy. I brought him immediately to New York. He sang for me...face to face.' Later, Kenna happened to be in a recording studio with one of his friends, who is a producer. There was a man there named Danny Wimmer who worked with Fred Durst (from limpbizkit). Danny listened to Kenna's music. He was entranced. He called Durst and played him one of kenna's songs, 'Freetime', over the phone. Durst said 'Sign him!'"

      Kenna's music is absolutely amazing. You absolutely must listen to his percussion it's not heavy or overbearing (usually just a basic hi-hat, bass drum, snare mix) but it's so original it's amazing.

      I cannot emphasize enough how much listening to his music has improved my drumming.
      Whats better than complete freedom from laws, both judicial and physical?

    25. #25
      Member bradybaker's Avatar
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      Originally posted by I
      ^ Disregard anything airbus says. It's a friend of mine playing a prank on me, trying to draw me into a big argument..it almost worked.
      Ok, in light of some new evidence, I'm moderately sure that I've made a mistake. And I apologize for doing so. I hope I don't regret this...

      Moving on...Ashlee Simpson?!?!!?

      a) She might write them but she certainly doesn't sing them, and I'm not just talking about the SNL incident. Ever heard of Pro Tools? It's the reason that 'pop princesses" like her, Duff and Lohan sound like decent singers on the radio. It's the reason that people think the girl from Evanescence can sing. They can't sing, it's all computers!

      I could go, "blah bleh blee" into a microphone and they could turn it into the most beautiful thing you've ever heard.

      B) Aside from the fact that she can't sing, I can least respect Lohan, Duff, the other Simpson, Spears, and rest of the pop gang because they made it on their own. They actually had to convince someone to sell their image.

      Then Ashlee Simpson comes along..."Hey, my sister is famous! No fair! I want to be famous too!". Next thing you know, boom, she has a record deal. What a surprise?

      Oh, and her latest album got trashed by just about everyone, including the LA Times, NY TImes and Rolling Stone Magazine.

      c) Guitar work not seen since AC/DC?!?!? AC/DC was nothing original. You won't find Angus Young on any lists of greatest guitarists.

      There is no artist in the world today who deserves to die more than Ashlee Simpson.
      "This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time."



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