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    Thread: RE: About God

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      RE: About God

      I saw the thread about what gods intentions are for us and I thought I should make a reply BUT I didnt want my reply bogged down under three pages where no one would find it so I made this post. You started discussing in particular the purpose of the body whether it was just a shell or whether it was evil or a prison so i decided to share a few of the beliefs of my religion. This will be a little long but if you are interested in this stuff I assure you that you wont be disapointed. Seriously read this through.

      The Body as a Blessing

      John S. Tanner, “The Body as a Blessing,” Ensign, July 1993, 7


      God cares about our time and all time, about this world and the next, about the body and the spirit. Indeed, it teaches that the body is sacred and intimately intertwined with the spirit. It affirms that the physical body, like the earth itself, shall be redeemed and is meant to be a source of joy. (See D&C 88:15, 25-31.)

      The Body and Joy

      The Doctrine and Covenants declares that “spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy. And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.” (D&C 93:33-34.) In these verses and others like them, modern revelation restores a truth known before the world was: namely, that the body is a blessing. Its creation was welcomed by heavenly rejoicing and pronounced “good,” even “very good,” by God himself. (Job 38:4-7; Gen. 1:31; Moses 2:31.) The physical body is a divine gift, a complement crucial to the spirit if we are to receive a fulness of heavenly joy and glory. As Joseph Smith taught: “We came to this earth that we might have a body and present it pure before God in the celestial kingdom. The great principle of happiness consists in having a body.” 1

      This remarkable perspective affirms the intrinsic goodness of both the physical body and the physical world. Our spirits need bodies that can suffer pain and savor pleasures. Bodies advance us toward a higher order of being—for “the Father has a [glorified] body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s.” (D&C 130:22.) Likewise, resurrected beings have bodies of flesh and bones (D&C 129:1-2), while the dead look upon “the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage” (D&C 45:17; D&C 138:50). 2

      These truths overturn entrenched tradition. They contradict traditional and conventional beliefs that regard the body as impure and as useful mainly to be resisted if not actively punished, philosophies that imagine God to be an unembodied spirit, unsullied by any taint of physicality, or dogmas that conceive birth as the imprisonment of the spirit.

      The doctrines of the Restoration, by contrast, suggest that birth liberates the spirit, enabling it to experience the wonder of physical sensation. This is how infants seem to respond to the physical world—grabbing their feet, clutching another’s fingers, savoring milk, splashing in the bath—seemingly enthralled with the sheer miracle of themselves and the natural world, every day filled with new wonders. If their eternal spirits could speak, perhaps newborns would salute their bodies as an inestimable treasure, as Thomas Traherne imagines in a poem entitled “The Salutation”:

      These little limbs [says the infant to its new body],
      These eyes and hands which here I find,
      These rosy cheeks wherewith my life begins,
      Where have ye been?

      [I] did little think such joys as ear or tongue,
      To celebrate or see:
      Such sounds to hear, such hands to feel, such feet,
      Beneath the skies, on such a ground to meet. 3

      Another seventeenth-century poet wisely wrote that without a body, the spirit like “a great prince in prison lies.” 4 If our spirits were to remain unembodied, we would not be free to progress eternally and would therefore be “shut out from the presence of our God.” (2 Ne. 9:8-9.)

      We should therefore teach our children to love their bodies, to accept them as gifts. Not that they need much instruction from adults; it is generally we who could learn from them. My toddlers, for example, often taught me about the innocent joy of the body. They loved to cavort to a song that began “I like to feel my body move …” The music invited them to run and jump and skip and hop. They often pulled me into their pure celebration of physical activity.

      Similarly, one of my favorite home movies records our toddler, speckled with mud, sitting in a rain puddle, kicking and splashing with sheer delight. It then shows on her first birthday, grabbing a fistful of cake, squeezing it in her hands, smearing it into her mouth, and grinning in utter ecstasy. A child’s world is full of sweet sensation: wiggling toes into soft mud, falling into fresh snow, kicking through fallen leaves. Children seem to know intuitively that the sensory world is “charged with the grandeur of God.” 5

      My wife and I often feel a childlike joy when hiking. While climbing mountain trails, we enjoy a rich suffusion of sensory experiences. We feel our hearts pounding and muscles stretching. We touch the soft new growth on pine and fir trees and smell the spicy mountain sage and evergreen. We taste ice-cold water, tart plums, and sweet trail mix. We hear the birds and wind in the trees and gaze on glorious mountain vistas. We feel a spirit of rejoicing: “Then sings my soul, my Savior God, to thee, How great thou art! How great thou art!” (Hymns, 1985, no. 86.) Through such physical experiences, our spirits find peace and draw close to Heavenly Father and to each other.

      Not to Excess, Neither by Extortion

      If the body is intrinsically good, why then do the scriptures speak of the evil of being carnally minded and of the hostility between flesh and spirit? (See, for example, 2 Ne. 9:39; Rom. 8:5-7.) To understand this, we need to attend to what the prophets mean by such terms as carnal, natural man, and the flesh. As scripture uses the term, man’s carnal nature is not the same as his physical nature, nor are sins of the flesh only those relating to our physical bodies. Paul lists among the “works of the flesh” many sins that have little to do with the body and much to do with the spirit—for example, idolatry, hatred, heresies, and envyings. (Gal. 5:19-21.) He seems to equate flesh with what King Mosiah calls “the natural man”—that lower, fallen part of our natures which tends to take us away from God. (Mosiah 3:19.) Likewise, to be in a “carnal state” is not simply to have a physical body but to be “carnally minded”—or full of evil desires. We become “carnal” not by acquiring bodies (if so, children would be sinful!) but by loving evil. (Moses 5:13.) The body itself is not evil, though having a body introduces the potential for doing evil. Evil rises out of how we use the body—or rather abuse it. One of the challenges of mortality is for the spirit to learn to appropriately control the body.

      The Doctrine and Covenants has much to teach us here, much that helps correct the false dualism fostered by a variety of mistaken religious and philosophical traditions about the body. 6 Consider, for example, section 59. [D&C 59] In it, the Lord encourages us to receive his gifts of physicality with gladness and gratitude:

      “Verily I say, that inasmuch as ye do this, the fulness of the earth is yours, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which climbeth upon the trees and walketh upon the earth,

      “Yea, and the herb, and the good things which come of the earth, whether for food or for raiment, or for houses, or for barns, or for orchards, or for gardens, or for vineyards,

      “Yea, all things which come of the earth, in the season thereof, are made for the benefit and the use of man, both to please the eye and to gladden the heart,

      “Yea, for food and for raiment, for taste and for smell, to strengthen the body and to enliven the soul.” (D&C 59:16-19.)

      In these verses, the Doctrine and Covenants reiterates the lessons of Genesis, when God rejoiced in his handiwork seven times over. We are invited to receive the world as did Adam and Eve on the morning of creation: “The fulness of the earth is yours”— beasts, fowls, herbs, and every good thing. (See Gen. 1:26-29.) We are also informed of something implied but not spelled out in Genesis: namely, that the Lord ordained this rich plenty not merely to serve the utilitarian purpose of sustaining life but specifically to give pleasure: “to please the eye and to gladden the heart.” The world is beautiful by divine design.

      Then the Lord adds a caution: “And it pleaseth God that he hath given all these things unto man; for unto this end were they made to be used, with judgment, not to excess, neither by extortion.” (D&C 59:20; emphasis added.) The intense physical pleasure the earth affords is deliberate; God intends food to taste good, landscapes to please the eye, smells to gladden the heart. Such great gifts, however, can be abused. This is the connotation of the telling word extortion—which literally means to “twist out.” Our use of the physical world and the body must not be twisted out of the divinely ordained purposes for which they were given. Physical pleasure is good in its proper time and place, but even then it must not become our god.

      These verses from section 59 frame the way I taught the law of chastity to my children and, as a campus bishop, to the young people in my ward. Sexual pleasure—like taste, smell, and other sensations—is among the good gifts a kind Father in Heaven has given us. Sex is not evil, nor is it shameful. Properly expressed, human intimacy gladdens the heart and enlivens the soul. Happily married couples know that physical intimacy is a source of sweet solace and great joy. But this divine gift, like all other physical pleasures, must not be used “by extortion.” Within the bounds the Lord has set, it will bring joy; twisted against its divine purposes, it will bring misery and remorse.

      The Soul of Man

      This balanced appreciation of the body found in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ stands in sharp contrast to the accent on human depravity so common in the Prophet Joseph’s day. In contrast to rigid dualism between body and spirit, the Doctrine and Covenants affirms the integration and continuity of spirit and matter, heaven and earth. Consider the following remarkable representative verses:

      “The spirit and the body are the soul of man.” (D&C 88:15.)

      “All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure.” (D&C 131:7.)

      “All things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal.” (D&C 29:34.)

      “That which is spiritual [is] in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual.” (D&C 77:2.)

      The emphasis in these verses falls on continuity rather than on contrast.

      This continuity between the physical and the spiritual is evident in countless ways in daily living. A favorite family anecdote illustrates the liaison between body and spirit. One day my mother-in-law, who is very sensitive to the Spirit, baked some wonderful homemade sweet rolls. Everyone enjoyed them, but the rolls were so large that even her teenage boys could eat no more than one and a half. That night as the family gathered around the bed for family prayer, my father-in-law called on his wife to pray.

      Silence.

      “Dear,” he repeated after a few awkward moments, “would you like to pray tonight?”

      Another pause, her head still buried in the bedspread. Then in a mournful, muffled voice, she said, “I don’t feel very spiritual—I ate three sweet rolls!”

      I suspect that all of us have eaten too many sweet rolls now and then. From such experience, we know the subtle but real connection between the physical and the spiritual. Fortunately, our spirits are affected not just negatively but positively by what we do to our bodies. I know a young boy, for example, who was overweight, depressed, and failing school. He started exercising, joined the swim team, and began working out regularly. His grades went up, his confidence increased, and his spirits soared.

      Similarly, I knew an alcoholic whose addiction enslaved him and broke up his family. At heart, he was a kind, good, and mechanically gifted man. But these gifts were mostly hidden because of his alcoholism. Then, in the last six years of his life, with great effort, he overcame his addiction. He became a new man. He held a steady job and used his considerable mechanical savvy to fix things for people. But above all, he repaired a broken relationship with his family. At his funeral, I wondered if in his last years he had discovered some of the “hidden treasures” promised to those who observe the Word of Wisdom. (D&C 89:19.) We who loved him certainly discovered treasures that had been hidden in him until he mastered the Lord’s law of health.

      The Word of Wisdom is but one of many ways the Doctrine and Covenants establishes the intimate link between body and spirit. Commending tasting and smelling (D&C 59:19), singing and dancing (D&C 136:28; D&C 25:12), loving and grieving (D&C 42:45; D&C 130:2), the Doctrine and Covenants is truly a book for our entire being. It reveals a God who cares for the wholeness of our souls—body and spirit—and intends to redeem them so that his children may receive a fulness of joy. (D&C 88:15-16.) Of the dead it is written: “Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.” (D&C 138:17.)

      Religions of mankind have sometimes been contemptuous of the body and deaf to what one poet called the carol of the creation. 7 Not so the restored gospel, as revealed in the Doctrine and Covenants. In this book of scripture, the carol sounds again, clear and joyous: “Let the earth break forth into singing. …

      “Let the mountains shout for joy, and all ye valleys cry aloud; and all ye seas and dry lands tell the wonders of your Eternal King! And ye rivers, and brooks, and rills, flow down with gladness. Let the woods and all the trees of the field praise the Lord; and ye solid rocks weep for joy!” (D&C 128:22-23.)

      Modern revelation celebrates elemental life, for “the elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples.” (D&C 93:35.) The Prophet Joseph remarked: “No person can have this salvation except through a tabernacle.” 8 The body is a temple. No wonder our temples of stone serve our temples of flesh. Both are sacred sanctuaries of the Spirit.

    2. #2
      Member Rtex's Avatar
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      WHoa!

      Holy Crap!!!!
      You expect people to actually read that? Sorry but **whistles** that is one long post!

      Sorry but no, My attention span is NOWHERE near that long
      "Everyone wants to be the star of their own movie. No one wants to be a support cast..." - Leoj

      "Everyone thinks that that point of "The Rtex Show" is that Rtex gets what he wants. When in reality "The Rtex Show" Is really the long sad tale of what happens to Rtex before he dies." - Leoj

      "I keep trying to find the cookie cutter that is responisible for what's cooking in my head, but I digress." - Leoj

    3. #3
      bleak... nerve's Avatar
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      ^ ditto that. ^


      Ignorant bliss is an oxymoron; but so is miserable truth.

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      Put that into your own words in about 5 paragraphs at most.

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      bleak... nerve's Avatar
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      ^_^ yes please.


      Ignorant bliss is an oxymoron; but so is miserable truth.

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      I dont think its a good idea to summarize that into a few small paragraphs as it wouldnt appropriately convey the message. You guys ever read a book? Arent you guys just sitting on the forums killing time anyways? It cant hurt that much to take 5 minutes at the most to read it.

      But hey i guess i could try to sum it up in one or two tidy sentences for those.... less inclined to effort


      The physical body is a divine gift, a complement crucial to the spirit if we are to receive a fulness of heavenly joy and glory. Gaining a body is one of the primary reasons for us being on the earth.

      That sums up the message pretty much. This dissapoints me so much!


      And in answer to the private message here:

      www.lds.org


      Use the search option to find info on specific things. ( on the top of the page)

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      Guardian Serinanth's Avatar
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      I think the thing is that its all basically cut and paste right? no one wants to read that, we want to know how YOU feel, in your own words, sure cut and paste here and there but We want your opinions, your thoughts, not somone elses, even if they are close to your own.
      "A knight is sworn to valor.
      His heart knows only virtue.
      His blade defends the helpless.
      His might upholds the weak.
      His word speaks only truth.
      His wrath undoes the wicked."

      Impossible is only that which has yet to be imagined

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      these ****ARE**** my ****SPECFIC**** to the letter beliefs. In other words this is part of the gospel I personaly believe in. I dont know how you people can think that my personal beleifs arent the same as the docterine i believe in. Here this might help I TESTIFY THAT THESE ARE MY PERSONAL BELIEFS AND I KNOW THEY ARE TRUE. I use that specific message because I know if i tried to write it up I would mislead people and I would not get my point across very well. That is a talk of one of my church leaders. This is no different than just quoting scriptures to explain what I beleive. If I quoted scriptures would you ask me to put them in my owns words? I dont think so. What really gets to me is you all read thermo's conspiracy post which was just as long without a single complaint!

      I find my self hard pressed to like this forum suddenly -_-


      HHHHMMMmmm

    9. #9
      Guardian Serinanth's Avatar
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      ack! calm yourself
      I read all of what you wrote too... I am just saying what I think everyone else was trying to get at.
      "A knight is sworn to valor.
      His heart knows only virtue.
      His blade defends the helpless.
      His might upholds the weak.
      His word speaks only truth.
      His wrath undoes the wicked."

      Impossible is only that which has yet to be imagined

    10. #10
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      I didn't read thermo's post. I read about half of it and got bored and just read the other replies to it.

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      [i]almost [/i]long enough

      This is very well thought out Fatal.

      You must have spledid dreams, and it sounds like you have a wonderful family. How old are your kids? They will all be strong willed and free in life I think.

      I agree with you.
      You make many good points, but you should learn to make references to other belief systems to further communicate your very peaceful and down to earth pereption of The Doctrine and Covenants and Christianity,
      I would love to hear your interpretations of early Buddhist and Taoist belief systems, or Native American tribalism, perhaps even Shamanism, you seem to have a very open and loving mind. All religions worship the same god, to me, they just use different rhetoric for the same concepts of love and eternity.

      The way you speak of the elements is intriguing. Have you studied any elementalism? Many cultures had understandings of the elements that I feel are very pertinent to human balence (especially because of globablism and the crisis our cultural indulgence is causing) despite the fact that most would be afraid of things that may be labeled 'magic' of 'evil' or 'witchcraft.'

      I see all religions weaving in and out of eachother. Elementalism, and the elemetal force behind all of our society is often unnoted or rejected etirely. I see the machinery and know that it came from metal, from harnessed fire, from 'modern magics.' Old magic, new magic, what is the difference? only form.

      I have studied this culture in depth along with myth and the history of world social rhetoric. I see that we have changed our words to justify our acts to the innocent workers who perpetuate the system.

      I think now, that the truth of modern civilization is that we are abusing what God gave us. We are unbalencing the earth, human to evironment karma is way bad, we cultivate in mass quantities and the world is becoming dry, we in amarica are just on the rich end..I am worried about our overindulgence. Instead of praying we are filling our bellies.

      The world now seems to consist of various addictions: food (sugar, wheat, cocoa, opium [natural and synthetic], tea, coffee, sex, tv, war (good begets bad), social fashion, technology, necromancy, politics, and a million more material demigods. Yet all are parts of god and therefor still holy.

      none of these make us productive or good in gods eyes, they are frivolity. we wpend our days seeking pleasure in short fixes instead of attempting to build any sort of peaceful environment -which is getting more and more cramped- or learn to at least not kill eachother!


      and now to wrap it all back around to lucid dreaming.

      My dreams are disturbed I see things growing and decaying...and for some reason, in our time, we are experiencing an accellerated decay. Most do not notice, but most do not go in to meditative trance for hours on end (usually sessions of this magnitude are 6 to 8 hrs long). I am worried. Something great is happening, but I am not sure what it is, I just feel reverberations of powerful energy. And the Bible and the Tao and Buddha and Krishna and the all and the nothing tell me that if I sense decay concetrated throughout American cities and places, socially and physically, some great good is also upon us, that which I do not know. For every reaction there must be the equal opposite somewhere. I think we live in rare times, indeed.

      This is also why I rarely form visualizations them with all my soul.

      Thank you for writing that Fatal, I hope more take the time to appreciate your words. It definitly got me thinking about some things I hadn't considered before.
      Juliao
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      ~ Thief 25 ~ Ninja 17 ~ Cook 60
      Tarutaru, Windurst
      Leviathan
      . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ja42.blogspot.com . . . . . . . .

    12. #12
      bleak... nerve's Avatar
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      Re: [i]almost [/i]long enough

      Originally posted by Blulanou42
      This is very well thought out Fatal.

      You must have spledid dreams, and it sounds like you have a wonderful family. *How old are your kids? *They will all be strong willed and free in life I think.

      i want to know what you are implying right here. you are saying you can only have good/lucid dreams if.....?


      Ignorant bliss is an oxymoron; but so is miserable truth.

    13. #13
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      no

      I am saying that I like his perspective

      he percieves a kind and gentle world, therefor dreams in a similar reality.

      in our dreams i think we are aloud a reflection, a sort of metaphysical inverse between our world and the world of our dreams. Karma?

      Everyone can have a lucid dream, but some are not worth while.
      qualitative vs. quatitative, you could say, paper doll

      I appreciate open and peaceful minds, those are people of strong will most often.
      Juliao
      ~Bard 57 ~ White mage 42 ~ Black mage 20
      ~ Thief 25 ~ Ninja 17 ~ Cook 60
      Tarutaru, Windurst
      Leviathan
      . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ja42.blogspot.com . . . . . . . .

    14. #14
      bleak... nerve's Avatar
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      so you're saying i don't DESERVE to lucid dream because i seem pissy in a forum?

      to be honest, (believe it or not) i have a pretty open and peaceful mind.


      Ignorant bliss is an oxymoron; but so is miserable truth.

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      Here comes the hard part... Those writings are not actauly my own. I am not John Tanner. John Tanner is a leader within my church. The Chuch Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I chose to post one of his talks that are here to give people an idea of the beliefs and doctrine of the LDS church about such things. I certainly wish I were such a wise an enlightened person myself but i just cant sit back and take credit for being this person when i am not.

      Im very sorry for allowing this to happen.

    16. #16
      Guardian Serinanth's Avatar
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      its sokay, sometimes someone writes something or says something that is nearly identical to how you feel, and you were tyring to get across the embodyment of your faith. Though you didnt outright say that You were John Tanner, "Share a few of my beleifs" kinda implied it. Don worry bout it.
      "A knight is sworn to valor.
      His heart knows only virtue.
      His blade defends the helpless.
      His might upholds the weak.
      His word speaks only truth.
      His wrath undoes the wicked."

      Impossible is only that which has yet to be imagined

    17. #17
      Member icedawg's Avatar
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      Hey all,

      Please refrain from discussing beliefs on this site. I understand feeling passionate about what one believes in and wanting to share it with the world, but inevitably, someone else's beliefs or feelings will be tread upon. You've all seen this, I'm sure, and that's just not what this forum is here for. I'm not locking this thread; I'm simply asking that it stop.

      Thank you.

    18. #18
      bleak... nerve's Avatar
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      i agree with admin. i did suggest putting a stop to discussion of beliefs once on here somewhere..


      Ignorant bliss is an oxymoron; but so is miserable truth.

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      Taking all the credit... jk you just want to be moderator...

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      :)

      Oh, sorry to mistake you, I assumed that was your name, fatal.

      It doesn't matter though, you are passing along the words and realize there importance. Wisdom reflects in karma.
      Juliao
      ~Bard 57 ~ White mage 42 ~ Black mage 20
      ~ Thief 25 ~ Ninja 17 ~ Cook 60
      Tarutaru, Windurst
      Leviathan
      . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ja42.blogspot.com . . . . . . . .

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