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    1. #1
      Bio-Turing Machine O'nus's Avatar
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      A Warmonger Explains War to a Peacenik

      (Yeah, it's long, but it's great)

      PeaceNik: Why did you say we are we invading Iraq?

      WarMonger: We are invading Iraq because it is in violation of security council
      resolution 1441. A country cannot be allowed to violate security council
      resolutions.

      PN: But I thought many of our allies, including Israel, were in violation of
      more security council resolutions than Iraq.

      WM: It's not just about UN resolutions. The main point is that Iraq could have
      weapons of mass destruction, and the first sign of a smoking gun could well be a
      mushroom cloud over NY.

      PN: Mushroom cloud? But I thought the weapons inspectors said Iraq had no
      nuclear weapons.

      WM: Yes, but biological and chemical weapons are the issue.

      PN: But I thought Iraq did not have any long range missiles for attacking us or
      our allies with such weapons.

      WM: The risk is not Iraq directly attacking us, but rather terrorists networks
      that Iraq could sell the weapons to.

      PN: But couldn't virtually any country sell chemical or biological materials?
      We sold quite a bit to Iraq in the eighties ourselves, didn't we?

      WM: That's ancient history. Look, Saddam Hussein is an evil man that has an
      undeniable track record of repressing his own people since the early eighties.
      He gasses his enemies. Everyone agrees that he is a power-hungry lunatic
      murderer.

      PN: We sold chemical and biological materials to a power-hungry lunatic
      murderer?

      WM: The issue is not what we sold, but rather what Saddam did. He is the one
      that launched a pre-emptive first strike on Kuwait.

      PN: A pre-emptive first strike does sound bad. But didn't our ambassador to
      Iraq, April Gillespie, know about and green-light the invasion of Kuwait?

      WM: Let's deal with the present, shall we? As of today, Iraq could sell its
      biological and chemical weapons to al-Qaeda. Osama Bin Laden himself released
      an audio tape calling on Iraqis to suicide-attack us, proving a partnership
      between the two.

      PN: Osama Bin Laden? Wasn't the point of invading Afghanistan to kill him?

      WM: Actually, it's not 100% certain that it's really Osama Bin Laden on the
      tapes. But the lesson from the tape is the same: there could easily be a
      partnership between al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein unless we act.

      PN: Is this the same audio tape where Osama Bin Laden labels Saddam a secular
      infidel?

      WM: You're missing the point by just focusing on the tape. Colin Powell
      presented a strong case against Iraq.

      PN: He did?

      WM: Yes, he showed satellite pictures of an al-Qaeda poison factory in Iraq.

      PN: But didn't that turn out to be a harmless shack in the part of Iraq
      controlled by the Kurdish opposition?

      WM: And a British intelligence report...

      PN: Didn't that turn out to be copied from an out-of-date graduate student
      paper?

      WM: And reports of mobile weapons labs...

      PN: Weren't those just artistic renderings?

      WM: And reports of Iraqis scuttling and hiding evidence from inspectors...

      PN: Wasn't that evidence contradicted by the chief weapons inspector, Hans Blix?

      WM: Yes, but there is plenty of other hard evidence that cannot be revealed
      because it would compromise our security.

      PN: So there is no publicly available evidence of weapons of mass destruction in
      Iraq?

      WM: The inspectors are not detectives, it's not their JOB to find evidence.
      You're missing the point.

      PN: So what is the point?

      WM: The main point is that we are invading Iraq because resolution 1441
      threatened "severe consequences." If we do not act, the security council will
      become an irrelevant debating society.

      PN: So the main point is to uphold the rulings of the security council?

      WM: Absolutely. ...unless it rules against us.

      PN: And what if it does rule against us?

      WM: In that case, we must lead a coalition of the willing to invade Iraq.

      PN: Coalition of the willing? Who's that?

      WM: Britain, Turkey, Bulgaria, Spain, and Italy, for starters.

      PN: I thought Turkey refused to help us unless we gave them tens of billions of
      dollars.

      WM: Nevertheless, they may now be willing.

      PN: I thought public opinion in all those countries was against war.

      WM: Current public opinion is irrelevant. The majority expresses its will by
      electing leaders to make decisions.

      PN: So it's the decisions of leaders elected by the majority that is important?

      WM: Yes.

      PN: But George Bush wasn't elected by voters. He was selected by the U.S.
      Supreme C...

      WM: I mean, we must support the decisions of our leaders, however they were
      elected, because they are acting in our best interest. This is about being a
      patriot. That's the bottom line.

      PN: So if we do not support the decisions of the president, we are not
      patriotic?

      WM: I never said that.

      PN: So what are you saying? Why are we invading Iraq?

      WM: As I said, because there is a chance that they have weapons of mass
      destruction that threaten us and our allies.

      PN: But the inspectors have not been able to find any such weapons.

      WM: Iraq is obviously hiding them.

      PN: You know this? How?

      WM: Because we know they had the weapons ten years ago, and they are still
      unaccounted for.

      PN: The weapons we sold them, you mean?

      WM: Precisely.

      PN: But I thought those biological and chemical weapons would degrade to an
      unusable state over ten years.

      WM: But there is a chance that some have not degraded.

      PN: So as long as there is even a small chance that such weapons exist, we must
      invade?

      WM: Exactly.

      PN: But North Korea actually has large amounts of usable chemical, biological,
      AND nuclear weapons, AND long-range missiles that can reach the west coast AND
      it has expelled nuclear weapons inspectors, AND threatened to turn America into
      a sea of fire.

      WM: That's a diplomatic issue.

      PN: So why are we invading Iraq instead of using diplomacy?

      WM: Aren't you listening? We are invading Iraq because we cannot allow the
      inspections to drag on indefinitely. Iraq has been delaying, deceiving, and
      denying for over ten years, and inspections cost us tens of millions.

      PN: But I thought war would cost us tens of billions.

      WM: Yes, but this is not about money. This is about security.

      PN: But wouldn't a pre-emptive war against Iraq ignite radical Muslim sentiments
      against us, and decrease our security?

      WM: Possibly, but we must not allow the terrorists to change the way we live.
      Once we do that, the terrorists have already won.

      PN: So what is the purpose of the Department of Homeland Security, color-coded
      terror alerts, and the Patriot Act? Don't these change the way we live?

      WM: I thought you had questions about Iraq.

      PN: I do. Why are we invading Iraq?

      WM: For the last time, we are invading Iraq because the world has called on
      Saddam Hussein to disarm, and he has failed to do so. He must now face the
      consequences.

      PN: So, likewise, if the world called on us to do something, such as find a
      peaceful solution, we would have an obligation to listen?

      WM: By "world", I meant the United Nations.

      PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the United Nations?

      WM: By "United Nations" I meant the Security Council.

      PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the Security Council?

      WM: I meant the majority of the Security Council.

      PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the majority of the Security Council?

      WM: Well... there could be an unreasonable veto.

      PN: In which case?

      WM: In which case, we have an obligation to ignore the veto.

      PN: And if the majority of the Security Council does not support us at all?

      WM: Then we have an obligation to ignore the Security Council.

      PN: That makes no sense.

      WM: If you love Iraq so much, you should move there. Or maybe France, with all
      the other cheese-eating surrender monkeys. It's time to boycott their wine and
      cheese, no doubt about that.

      PN: I give up!


    2. #2
      Member Lowercase Society's Avatar
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      Its the same old damn arguement across the globe.
      The US invaded Iraq, big deal, we already basically own the country. GET OVER IT peoples...arguing isn't going to change the course of the world. I mean there is ALWAYS going to be complaints about the actions of the number 1 country in the world.

      Take ancient greece for example...when they invaded different countries just to expand their borders, that was 'highly unethical' too...but no one takes that into consideration today. *vent*

      Sorry! i just had to get that out...im just sick of all these arguements about the war...WARS WILL ALWAYS HAPPEN, whether we want them or not...people will keep on dying...its the way this greedy world works.
      "i am the crumpled sheets of paper behind an artists' attempt at perfection"


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    3. #3
      Member Umbrasquall's Avatar
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      Realism. Good point LC. To bad what America doesn't realize that it's following the exact path every other power in world history has taken. I'm not going to expand though because I might cause a lot of angry debate.

      That argument is pretty old, but still, I read it for fun.

    4. #4
      Member Lowercase Society's Avatar
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      Originally posted by Squall
      Realism. Good point LC. To bad what America doesn't realize that it's following the exact path every other power in world history has taken. I'm not going to expand though because I might cause a lot of angry debate. *

      That argument is pretty old, but still, I read it for fun. *
      If i had a say in the matter, i think the US will be the last super power ever. The world is getting too...old and used. Its going to be all over soon, and no one is THAT close to the amount of influence as the US...perhaps Japan or Germany or England...but there is no other path to take if you are the super power of the world.
      Circles, cycles, death.
      "i am the crumpled sheets of paper behind an artists' attempt at perfection"


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    5. #5
      Member Umbrasquall's Avatar
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      True...

    6. #6
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      It's funny how the Peacenik had more questions than answers.

    7. #7
      Member Umbrasquall's Avatar
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      I thought the PN was supposed to be the interrogator.

    8. #8
      Member Kaniaz's Avatar
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      This might be intresting to see.

      According to "John Titor", who was a supposed time traveller from sometime in the near future (2012, I believe), the USA will be entering a war/get people really angry in 2004 (we've already got angry people). After 2004, violence will flare up and down a bit, then all hell breaks loose and we enter World War III. Luckily for the globe, it is short lived. However, Russia launches nuclear missles at the great cities during the war in an attempt to stop the war.

      Because of this, the earth has now got a problem. While country areas are fine, larger areas, such as London, Washington DC, New York, etc, are now radioactive and cannot be entered. It also requires us to now filter our water to remove radioactive particles from it.

      I suppose it will not be long until we find out wether John Titors posts are true.

    9. #9
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      No one is going to shoot nuclear missiles at anyone to try and make peace. Once you hit the button your pretty much dead within the hour. They are basicly used as a bluff or by someone who knows they going to die and wants to take out as many people as they can before they go.

      Sad thing is US wouldn't be where it is today without war. Its how we gained most of our land. Either directly or indirectly from war. Though I would like to think we don't do that stuff anymore.

    10. #10
      Member Umbrasquall's Avatar
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      Where did you find this Titor guy's article?

    11. #11
      Member Kaniaz's Avatar
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      johntitor.com has all his posts. He went back to 2012 sometime ago.

    12. #12
      moderator emeritus jacobo's Avatar
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      good read, thanks for sharing.
      clear eyes. strong hands.

    13. #13
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      he went back to the future?

    14. #14
      Member WerBurN's Avatar
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      john titor was supposedly some guy who timetraveled back to our era from the year 2012 and posted a buncha apocalyptic stuff on the bbc (i think thats where it was at least)...on the subject of the US degrading and collapsing like every great nation ever, that is exactly why im moving to Japan in the not so distant future...

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