Thread: for americans

I definitely don't like the trip we're on in this society--I see the present world order as a giant machine working to turn everything on earth into money. I don't believe it can change by any uprising against it, though. We need to build something better, a more natural way of getting along that makes this system obsolete. To me it's about changing the idea-space until revolution is unnecessary. Ideally I'm an anarchist (an archos=no leaders), but anarchy requires everyone to take a lot of responsibility, and most people seem happier to hand their fate over to someone else and follow orders.

All the same, I will vote, because it's the only practical way to oppose Bush & pals, who have done tremendous damage on a global scale already. In 2000 I didn't like that Bush got in, but I thought, "How much harm can he do?" Man, did I learn my lesson.

I will not vote. 1 count means nothing. WATAHHH!

Originally posted by Truthbearer
I understand what you say completely. But as long as society is in this state, the only way to be happy is to be ignorant. Once you know the truth, that is something pretty difficult to do(pratically impossible in my case).

Realistically speaking, I don't think that I can cause this revolution to begin. I think that what I can do is pretty limited, as long as I am alone in my cause. I know there are plenty like us out there, but we will never do anything without unison. If we unite, we can do anything. There are more and more people awakening to the truth by the minute. Soon we should be enough to do what we need. An insurection. They can fight a concrete enemy, such as a nation, but can they really stand a chance against their own? I don't think so.

All that I can ever expect of my life is to unite with enough people so that we can purchase some large estate, in which several people could live their lives the way they always wanted. In a sort of Utopic society, where we can focus on the things that truly matter, the things that truly makes us grow as humans and evolve. That will be the time to be happy and free, not now...

Hehe, the Matrix philosophy eh

Originally posted by Taosaur
All the same, I will vote, *because it's the only practical way to oppose Bush & pals, who have done tremendous damage on a global scale already. *In 2000 I didn't like that Bush got in, but I thought, \"How much harm can he do?\" *Man, did I learn my lesson.

Well half the people(it is pretty close to 50/50) think kerry is far worse, which is saying something.

Originally posted by Alric

Well half the people(it is pretty close to 50/50) think kerry is far worse, which is saying something.

Polls cannot be trusted. Not saying Kerry is better, but I really don't think the American people have the capacity to grasp the concept of a genuinely good president in the first place. It could be someone like many of us, fighting for genuine equality of all people, and people would think it was the devil...Media is used against decent people all the time

I am not really getting the numbers from the polls even though the polls also say it. I am getting it because it seems half is always argueing with the other half about it.

Originally posted by Awaken
Hehe, the Matrix philosophy eh

I wasn't really thinking about that when I wrote this, but I guess so...

That is why I like the matrix so much, I am completely sure that it was intended to be a parallel or a metaphor for today's society...

Anyway, all I want is to be free and be able to focus my life on a spiritual purpose, rather than selling my soul to the capitalist society for concepts as irrelevant as money and comodity...

I made this image last night, I feel it summarises Tom Ridge fairly well: http://www.freewebs.com/universalfacts/ridge.jpg
(You have to copy + paste it )

My fairly political site: http://www.freewebs.com/universalfacts/index.htm

Originally posted by Taosaur
I definitely don't like the trip we're on in this society--I see the present world order as a giant machine working to turn everything on earth into money. *I don't believe it can change by any uprising against it, though. * We need to build something better, a more natural way of getting along that makes this system obsolete. *To me it's about changing the idea-space until revolution is unnecessary. *Ideally I'm an anarchist (an archos=no leaders), but anarchy requires everyone to take a lot of responsibility, and most people seem happier to hand their fate over to someone else and follow orders. *

I don't think anarchy is the way to go either. People are not ready for that responsibility. I think that we should have a council of like 5-10 people elected by the people, in charge of making all the desicions that currently just made by the president. Whenever one of them is found to have some alterior purpose, other than serving his country, he will be impeached and someone new will be re-elected.

Also, I don't really think that we can gradually morph this society into a better one. We are already to deep in, and even if that was possible it would probably take ages and ages. I really don't see it as a possibility. I think there has to be some sort of insurrection led by the people. Bush and other leaders are no one, without the people they rule and command. They also cannot tell a person with a certain ideology from another, so they don't really have a concrete enemy to fight, and they won't be able to fight it with all their might, cause there will probably be people of our ideology posing as their own. Moles, if you will. An inssurection is virtually unstoppable.

Have you seen fight club? That is the sort of insurrection I am talking about. People sabotaging their own work places, just cause they know that the fact that they are employed by them, doesn't mean they bought their loyalty and will. I think its the best chance we got...

Does that council only do what the president does now? If so what about congress and stuff? If all your doing is changing the office of president I don't think you will change much of anything. Infact you might have huge problems when they all start to argue and where being attacked. If your getting rid of congress and stuff, well thats a dictatorship.

As for the insurrection, I would take the slow path that might take a really long time rather than the mass killing, lets kill everyone in charge method.

Originally posted by Alric
Does that council only do what the president does now? If so what about congress and stuff? If all your doing is changing the office of president I don't think you will change much of anything. Infact you might have huge problems when they all start to argue and where being attacked. If your getting rid of congress and stuff, well thats a dictatorship.

As for the insurrection, I would take the slow path that might take a really long time rather than the mass killing, lets kill everyone in charge method.

Who ever said anything about killing? If I am not mistaken, in Fight Club(which I mentioned) no one(or very few people) were killed in order for the credit card buildings to be blown up. Those are the sort of things I would be after. The system, not the people themselves...

Also, how would a council of rulers that have no congress be a dictatorship? I said that anyone who is found to be taking decisions for any other motive that is not the well-being of the people is to be impeached. That should solve the problem.

My point in doing this, is that ths way we don't rely as much in the beliefs of one man and judgement of one man. It makes corruption a bit harder, though obviously not impossible. We would just be placing more obstacles in the way. We also gain the possibility of having a more "fair" judgement regarding the way the government should proceed on several matters...

Who will impeach them? Themself? If they do it themself then there is nothing stopping them from agreeing not to do it to each other and the government can easily become a dictatorship. That is why our government is split in 3 parts and they all watch each other.

If we only had a congress, even though its made up of a lot of people they could all give themself more and more power and no one could stop them. Your really taking away a ton of obstacles not putting more in.

As for taking out the "system" you can't do it without taking out people. Blowing up a few random buildings isn't going to change the government. They could sit in some shed and still do their work. They will just call you terrorist and then hunt you down anyway.

Originally posted by Truthbearer

My point in doing this, is that ths way we don't rely as much in the beliefs of one man and judgement of one man. It makes corruption a bit harder, though obviously not impossible. We would just be placing more obstacles in the way. We also gain the possibility of having a more \"fair\" judgement regarding the way the government should proceed on several matters...

Ideally, that's how our system is supposed to work, anyway. The President is only responsible for enacting policies written and voted on in Congress, and subjected to testing and interpretation by the courts. In this administration, however, congress has been allowing W. to dictate legislation, and military and police agencies have been built up and consolidated to give him more muscle and keep everyone in line.

Also, this myth(possibly true) has built up of a brutish working-class populace that's totally down with bombing brown people and keeping queers in their place. People in office and in the media who consider themselves intellectuals are afraid of this president, because they see he is willing and able to rally people around the flag of paranoid hate, so many people in the best positions to oppose him are appeasing him instead, which allows him to snatch up more and more power.

Originally posted by Alric
Who will impeach them? Themself? If they do it themself then there is nothing stopping them from agreeing not to do it to each other and the government can easily become a dictatorship. That is why our government is split in 3 parts and they all watch each other.

If we only had a congress, even though its made up of a lot of people they could all give themself more and more power and no one could stop them. Your really taking away a ton of obstacles not putting more in.

As for taking out the \"system\" you can't do it without taking out people. Blowing up a few random buildings isn't going to change the government. They could sit in some shed and still do their work. They will just call you terrorist and then hunt you down anyway.

Who ever said that they would impeach themselves? You are basing all your arguement on one assumption, instead of trying to find a way in which it would work.

I was thinking more along the lines of it being exposed by the other members of the council, or by any citizen that feels he has a valid case. If there is enough evidence to argue that he is not doing what is best for the people, a motion must be made to impeach him. After this, the people can vote as to whether he should remain in office, or if he should be relieved of this duties...

It is all about thinking of ways to make it work. I think that we can still have a congress, but the only way to make it truly valid is that there are no parties of any sort. Every man for himself, and they are supposed to express his/her views, and not that of a "party". No alliances also mean that there will be less corruption in the form of sympathizing with your own(example, democratic party congressmen voted against Clinton's impeachment, etc)

You must know today's government is far from perfect, and there is always room from improvement, mostly when it is in a state as decadent as the one it is presently in. Instead of trying to argue why this government is great, I suggest we try and take the good stuff and find ways to improve it, to make it stronger. That is all I am doing...

My point was you would need another part of the government. If not anyone working for the government would be below the council ran by the council. So basicly if the council is telling them what to do, you can't rely on them to do anything about the council, how could they? It would be like you trying to fire your boss. So basicly your only relying on the council. All they have to do is buddy up to each other and then you screwed.

Yeah, I get your point. All the we must do it find a way for that not to happen, like any citizen being able to make a claim against a member of the council as long as it is well justified. There is no diplomatic impunity in my idea of a government...

Originally posted by Truthbearer+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Truthbearer)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-Awaken

Hehe, the Matrix philosophy eh

I wasn't really thinking about that when I wrote this, but I guess so...

That is why I like the matrix so much, I am completely sure that it was intended to be a parallel or a metaphor for today's society...

Anyway, all I want is to be free and be able to focus my life on a spiritual purpose, rather than selling my soul to the capitalist society for concepts as irrelevant as money and comodity...[/b]

The Matrix is very clearly aimed directly at the problems of today's society...I couldn't agree more.

Spirituality is the only path which has given me unadultered bliss and peace of mind. All I want is to help people see their paths too, and share good experiences. I'm tired of the whole materialistic ego-trip...It's like a drug - it'll bring you up but knock you down at the same time. There's no eternity in buying stuff. Eternity comes from saying yes to the moment and enjoying life with others - not competing and judging people in negative ways.

I personlly like it how it is. Even if you think there are problems with the government the basic set up is very solid, theres no reason to change that.

I can think of plenty of reasons to change the current form of government I guess you really have to be put at odds with authority to see the hypocrisy...Experiencing their lies firsthand doesn't leave much room for doubt that changes need to take place.

Originally posted by Awaken
The Matrix is very clearly aimed directly at the problems of today's society...I couldn't agree more. *

Spirituality is the only path which has given me unadultered bliss and peace of mind. All I want is to help people see their paths too, and share good experiences. I'm tired of the whole materialistic ego-trip...It's like a drug - it'll bring you up but knock you down at the same time. There's no eternity in buying stuff. Eternity comes from saying yes to the moment and enjoying life with others - not competing and judging people in negative ways.

I couldn't have said it better myself. That is what I think life is about to, discovering yourself and a higher purpose than the one that we are superficially presented with...

Alric: It is in fact very solid, as any other system of control is. All I want is something much more fair, just and corruption-proof. The current government is too vulnerable to corruption in my opinion. Just think about how rich the government is making the company they hired to rebuild Irak, coincidentally Dick Cheney's former company(he was the CEO)...

Originally posted by Truthbearer

All I want is something much more fair, just and corruption-proof. The current government is too vulnerable to corruption in my opinion. Just think about how rich the government is making the company they hired to rebuild Irak, coincidentally Dick Cheney's former company(he was the CEO)...

See, this is why I favor anarchy ideally (though I agree people aren't ready for it yet, if we'll ever be): any system with leaders is going to tempt the power-hungry to seek authority over others.

People are certainly not ready for anarchy...Everyone's too dependent on others for guidance, and it's been a constant cycle lately. When I have kids, they're gonna be self-reliant and inquisitive about the structure of the world. Questioning authority will be a regular topic at the dinner table

There is no such thing as corruption-proof. You just need to keep an eye out for it and deal with any that comes along.

Originally posted by Awaken
When I have kids, they're gonna be self-reliant and inquisitive about the structure of the world. Questioning authority will be a regular topic at the dinner table

I am not sure if I will ever have kids, although I hope I will. I have thought about this topic very much, and eventhough they should be taught all that I know, I don't really want to impose my beliefs upon them, which is what I think I will probably end up doing.

I will try to be as neutral as possible and just let them know their options. In the end, they are to take the path that they desire, not the one I want them to have. Otherwise I would be a hypocrite, dictating how we all should be free and how we should see beyond the facade, but then giving my children a certain view...

I know corruption is inevitable, but that doesn't mean we can add as many measures as possible, to at least make it harder to occur....