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    1. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by Greedo View Post
      If they can prove they've been putting in an effort to make art they won't be... But if they just say they're an "artist" and then do nothing waiting for "artistic inspiration" they will be asked to take another job... Death is the final judgement, not the initial.
      And how does one "prove" they're creating art, and not just creating crap?

    2. #27
      The Anti-Member spockman's Avatar
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      Ideally, the government wouldn't force people to take jobs at all... In a utopia a government shouldn't exist. But that doesn't mean society shouldn't exist. The society each has thier own role. One is a scientist. One is a farmer. One is a doctor. Everyone contibutes to everyone else because everyone else contributes to them. If someone wants to step outside that circle, fine. But then they aren't going to get any help from anyone else within society.

      But in a Utopia, regulation is un-necassary. Start over mandating something trying to get a forced Utopia and you have a negative Utopia.
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    3. #28
      Xei
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      There are some obvious ideas that most of us would agree with. First off is no labour; automated farming machinery, services industries, etcetera. This would have to all be a sustainable system, but that's not impossible to attain. Then there is the overcoming of all disease, etcetera.

      Progress would then be made for the sake of mankind; research in technology, science, and metaphysics, alongside others who create art. This really rests on the idea that human nature can overcome the primal instincts which often seem to have driven events in the whole of our history and that a significant enough number who would do work for the sake of mankind instead of just their own gain... I suppose my utopian society is very communist in this way. There is a problem though with what happens when we reach the peak... I'm not sure if the human race is made to live in an unchanging, undeveloping world. We've been constantly developing since we first evolved and it's an integral part of the human spirit now.

      Another problem is with immortality; in the utopian society we would have overcome unintentional death, but this would mean restricting the number of children you're allowed to have, if any, quite severely, to stop overpopulation. This is unfair on couples in itself, and there's the issue of whether the consciousness of a new being is somehow more valuable than that of an existing being.

      With regards to the law I think it's fairly simple: you do not do anything that harms another. Otherwise, you are completely responsible for your own body, to do with as you will.
      Last edited by Xei; 10-14-2008 at 11:33 PM.

    4. #29
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      As rediculous as it sounds (and as rediculous as it is) i say the matrix would be the best uptopia. Not one where they simulate the world here, but one that you have control of, a perpetual lucid dream, i have no idea how they would do this, but in my opinion, it would be great for the individual.

    5. #30
      The Anti-Member spockman's Avatar
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      Originally Posted by Xei There are some obvious ideas that most of us would agree with. First off is no labour
      I strongly disagree with you there.

      automated farming machinery, services industries, etcetera.
      This is the direction that we are going in most westernized cultures, in my opinion alot of it has been negative to the average moral cosntitution of a person. Where's the pride? Where is the work ethic?
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    6. #31
      Xei
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      ...in the other sectors I mentioned? Science and the arts? I don't think anybody would rather be doing physical work, especially when it becomes unecessary.

    7. #32
      The Anti-Member spockman's Avatar
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      ...in the other sectors I mentioned? Science and the arts? I don't think anybody would rather be doing physical work, especially when it becomes unecessary.
      I think it's important that we do an amount of our own menial tasks and exert ourselves physically regularly.

      It gives us pride. Self purpose or drive. Accomplishment. Work ethic.

      I would prefer to live in a Native American culture than a fully automated one. Though I thinkt here's something to say about a balance. (I would pick my life right now above either of those.)
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    8. #33
      Chef vo Schwiiz Greedo's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by drewmandan View Post
      And how does one "prove" they're creating art, and not just creating crap?
      What is art and what is crap? If it doesn't work, if it's horrible, then get a new job... Not everyone is meant to be an artist obviously.
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    9. #34
      The Anti-Member spockman's Avatar
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      But what he's saying I think is that one man's abstract art is anothers conglameration of random colors. Who decides? A totalitarian leader?
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    10. #35
      Chef vo Schwiiz Greedo's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by spockman View Post
      But what he's saying I think is that one man's abstract art is anothers conglameration of random colors. Who decides? A totalitarian leader?
      Why is Picasso's stuff regarded as high art, but if I draw a line on paper it isn't? Who decides? The people. Society.
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    11. #36
      The Anti-Member spockman's Avatar
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      But artists and such are often not appreciated by the majority. Even great ones. Who's to say Navar isn't the greatest band in existance just because so few people like them? (I'm not saying they are.)
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    12. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by spockman View Post
      But artists and such are often not appreciated by the majority. Even great ones. Who's to say Navar isn't the greatest band in existance just because so few people like them? (I'm not saying they are.)
      Those that suck can pursue it as a hobby of course. But they'll still be expected to work.

      Hmm how about this.. If you can make money with it, you qualify as you can pay taxes.
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    13. #38
      Xei
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      I think it's important that we do an amount of our own menial tasks and exert ourselves physically regularly.
      Well I suppose there would always be that option available.

      But as soon as it is pointless I don't know that anybody would want to.

      I feel that you are being too resistive to change when considering utopias...

    14. #39
      The Anti-Member spockman's Avatar
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      I'm just trying to look at what is good for the human soul based on my experiences. When I have finished writing a paper, a poem, an art peice that I've spent many hours on I have felt pride, accomplishment, yes.

      But it's an entirly different feeling, and just as refreshing, to work construction in the hot sun for 12 hours and come home be able to lay on my bed and say, "I really put something up today."
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    15. #40
      Xei
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      Well personally I have a 'physical' job at the moment, which is washing up at the pub. I get no real feeling of accomplishment from it, and I know that if it there were a more efficient automated mechanical means then I would definitely not turn up for free to turn the machine off and do it myself for a feeling of accomplishment.

    16. #41
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      Quote Originally Posted by Greedo View Post
      Those that suck can pursue it as a hobby of course. But they'll still be expected to work.

      Hmm how about this.. If you can make money with it, you qualify as you can pay taxes.
      Make money? What are you talking about? You already said your society doesn't use money.

    17. #42
      Chef vo Schwiiz Greedo's Avatar
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      No I didn't. I said it's taxed heavily.

      I think you're too anti-communist to see that my ideas aren't communist
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    18. #43
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      Quote Originally Posted by Greedo View Post
      No I didn't. I said it's taxed heavily.

      I think you're too anti-communist to see that my ideas aren't communist
      Sure, what's not communist about a planned economy where trade for profit is illegal and not working results in the death penalty? How could I be so foolish as to see that as pure Stalinism?

      Quote Originally Posted by spockman View Post
      But it's an entirly different feeling, and just as refreshing, to work construction in the hot sun for 12 hours and come home be able to lay on my bed and say, "I really put something up today."
      That's fine. I really understand the appeal, even if I don't share it. But here's the thing, you can't just say that everyone else has to work because you happen to like it. Consider a future post-scarcity society where most labour is done by machines and the only large-scale uses of human brains involve creativity, be it in art, philosophy, science, what have you. Now, some people may very well want to work and break a sweat. So let them. If they want to make things with their own two hands, let them. But then others might like having machines do the work, and using their time and energy on other things. So why not let them use the machines? Why shouldn't people be allowed to live a hedonistic lifestyle? What possible argument could you have for why that should not be allowed?

    19. #44
      Chef vo Schwiiz Greedo's Avatar
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      Can you please give me a direct quote where I said that "trade for profit is illegal"?
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    20. #45
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      Quote Originally Posted by Greedo View Post
      Can you please give me a direct quote where I said that "trade for profit is illegal"?
      Hmm I'm getting yours and spock's mixed up because they're so similar. It's implied anyway. Being a professional trader would be punishable by death in your society because such an occupation would be seen as "unproductive", which is quite ironic, considering trade allows for comparative advantage, which is the foundation of abundance.

      But anyway, I think the best test of a utopia is to put yourself in the shoes of a person at the very bottom of the ladder. I think you guys are envisioning these communisms where you're really smart and you get to be a doctor or a scientist, and you let others get the crappy jobs. But try putting yourself in the shoes of a person that's, say, depressed and doesn't want to work. Well, that's a simple one. They get put to death. How would you feel if you were that person? Would you feel like justice was being done? Would you marvel at the sheer bliss of living in such a utopia?

      You see, in my utopia, not wanting to work just means you don't work. You may not be important to society in any way, but you still live a very comfortable life. I could easily put myself in that person's shoes.

    21. #46
      Chef vo Schwiiz Greedo's Avatar
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      A professional trader? Like a stock trader? There would be stock traders hired by the government and you could do it yourself if you wanted to as a side job.

      You wouldn't marvel at the sheer bliss of living in such a utopia if you were put to death, quite simply because you'd be put to death... What they are doing is theft, and theft is a crime. Criminals have no rights in my utopia...
      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/greedo1/greedosig.jpg

    22. #47
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      Quote Originally Posted by Greedo View Post
      You wouldn't marvel at the sheer bliss of living in such a utopia if you were put to death, quite simply because you'd be put to death... What they are doing is theft, and theft is a crime. Criminals have no rights in my utopia...
      So the answer is, no, you couldn't live in your utopia unless you were at the top. Wow. That's some utopia you got there.

      And how, exactly, does simply being alive constitute theft? What if a person didn't work but managed to grow their own food? What are they stealing, exactly?

    23. #48
      Chef vo Schwiiz Greedo's Avatar
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      Yes, that's exactly what I said. Wow you're good! You win, I lose!

      Oh wait. Did I say that? Hm... No, no I did not.

      I said that the bums on the street would be killed off. You can be in the middle. There is a middle between a CEO and a homeless man.

      Honestly, how many people live like that? And they are stealing because they're not paying taxes. So stealing from the government.
      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/greedo1/greedosig.jpg

    24. #49
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      Quote Originally Posted by Greedo View Post
      Honestly, how many people live like that? And they are stealing because they're not paying taxes. So stealing from the government.
      So let me get this straight. They're stealing by not paying taxes. But they haven't made any money to pay taxes on. So they owed money from the start, or in other words, everyone is born indebted to the government, and the penalty for not paying taxes is death.

      Perhaps you could explain to me how this isn't slavery.

    25. #50
      Chef vo Schwiiz Greedo's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by drewmandan View Post
      So let me get this straight. They're stealing by not paying taxes. But they haven't made any money to pay taxes on. So they owed money from the start, or in other words, everyone is born indebted to the government, and the penalty for not paying taxes is death.

      Perhaps you could explain to me how this isn't slavery.
      You're expecting accomodation and services without paying for it. How is that not laziness and purposeful misuse of the system?
      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/greedo1/greedosig.jpg

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