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    1. #51
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      Actually, the amount of O2 that the world's forests puts out is miniscule compared to the O2 output of the ocean's algae. Deforestation has other very bad consequences and needs to stop, but it won't effect the atmosphere very much.

      The problem is that as sea temperatures increase due to global warming, algae dies.

    2. #52
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
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      Find ONE American scientist (preferably in the area of climate, earth sciences, or a related field) who denies global warming, and who has does not have direct ties to ExxonMobil. Or find ONE publication or organization that has publicly denied global warming that has no such ties. Just one. Post it here. Drewmandan showed that a "quick google search" fails miserably, so I implore you to put a little thought into it.
      Apparently you haven't been paying attention to your own thread if you think no such scientists has been mentioned.

      Also, your repulsion of any skeptic of this hypothesis shows a gross misunderstanding of the scientific method. Politics should have no place at all in a scientific debate, and skepticism is the holy grail.
      You're contradicting yourself. You keep saying that the solubility of CO2 decreasing is increasing global warming by released CO2 from the ocean (which is true) I'm confused how Venus got involved in this. Yes, CO2 is the major reason Venus' atmosphere is so hot, but it's got 90x as much atmosphere as Earth. Earth can never get like Venus even if the atmosphere was 100% CO2.
      Well apparently you've just completely lost the thread then. The thread was this; there will never be a scenario in which Earth's climate spirals uncontrollably due to our influence. A small CO2 increase will cause a small temperature increase; there's no exponential feedback at play here or anything like that.

      And no, what I've been saying is that CO2 sol./temperature is an explanation of the correlation between the two, with temperature as the causal factor; except this explanation actually has empirical evidence and is proper science, quite unlike anthropic global warming.
      Watch the damn Youtube. No one knows solar activity from 1000 years ago, but Galeglio started recording them in the 1600 and they've been watched constantly since the 1800s.
      So when you said that solar activity hasn't changed you were actually making stuff up. Again.
      All oxygen breathing life gives off CO2, but it wouldn't increase it dramatically like it's been doing. You know that graph of the CO2 levels over the last 50 years? Those cyclical ups and downs every year are because of animals.

      Animals can only shape an atmosphere over very long periods of time. The only thing that can change it abruptly like we're seeing is the sun, volcanos, or man.
      You realise that there wouldn't be any oxygen in the atmosphere if it werent for life?

      But anyway, you've lost the thread again. I wasn't saying that animals are responsible for the recent rise in CO2, if I remember rightly that is down to our burning fossil fuels. We were talking about how, during the history of the Earth, other factors have affected the temperature, such as solar activity (which you said does not change, although you've now said you have no evidence at all for that), and biological processes.
      It is science. Cold air doesn't hold water vapor as well. Fact. Less CO2 in the atmosphere means cooler temperatures. Fact. I can do calculations, they aren't hard. I don't understand why this is so hard for you to get, removing CO2 brings down temperature, which brings down humidity, which further decreases temperature.

      100% (all greenhouse components) - 35% (CO2 + methane) = 65%
      65% * 1 (constant heat from the sun) = .65 (amount of heat held by the atmosphere)

      Graph of water capacity vs temperature


      Take any point on the graph, take 65% of it and you get the drop in water vapor temperature. Now add the loss of water vapor to the CO2 + methane portion and repeat until the change is negligible.
      Well done, those two things are facts! However, your calculations show an incredible ignorance. Have you studied mathematics or any physical science to a high level?

      1. Why did you remove the methane when we were talking about CO2?
      2. You've made a massive assumption about a proportionality between temperature of the planet and the amount of greenhouse gas in its atmosphere. According to your logic a planet with no greenhouse gas would be absolute zero.
      3. Why the hell would you take 65% of a temperature in Celsius? Do you have any basic understanding of thermodynamics or what temperature actually is??
      4. You realise that if you actually apply your iterative process, the temperature will always fall to absolute zero?? You think that's correct?

    3. #53
      Dreaming up music skysaw's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Apparently you haven't been paying attention to your own thread if you think no such scientists has been mentioned.
      Gee really? Then how come you cannot come up with his name? What the hell is so hard about that?

      So far in this thread exactly one climate scientist has been named: S. Fred Singer. I have fully covered his ties to ExxonMobil.

      If you're seeing another name here, it can only be attributed to hallucination.
      Last edited by skysaw; 12-23-2008 at 06:47 PM.
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    4. #54
      Xei
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      Find ONE American scientist (preferably in the area of climate, earth sciences, or a related field) who denies global warming, and who has does not have direct ties to ExxonMobil.
      Uhhhh Michael Crichton? There was also that list on Wikipedia. What exactly do you want?

      By the way, what's with insisting that they're American??

      Seriously, your attitude to scientific skepticism is ridiculous. Skepticism is at the heart of science, and as soon as you start shooting the skeptics, you're out of science and back into the dark ages.

    5. #55
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Uhhhh Michael Crichton? There was also that list on Wikipedia. What exactly do you want?
      I want a scientist, preferably in a related field. I said that several times. Crichton is not such a scientist.

      The list on Wikipedia was suggested as a good place to pull such a name from, but you didn't attempt to do so. Do you actually want me to systematically discredit as many as I can one by one? Would you actually read each of these posts? If yes, I'll begin, but I was hoping you could save everyone the bother and just point to your favorites. Or perhaps that is difficult for you because you don't know who these people are?

      By the way, what's with insisting that they're American??
      Nothing sinister in this. 1. ExxonMobil is an American company, their ties are more likely to be in America. And 2. though there are examples outside America, it is seriously harder to do the research on this end, FIA not extending to the scope of the entire world. My task requires enough work as it is, but if it's an issue, why don't we both agree that at least there are no American scientists that fit that criteria.

      Seriously, your attitude to scientific skepticism is ridiculous. Skepticism is at the heart of science, and as soon as you start shooting the skeptics, you're out of science and back into the dark ages.
      Why don't you go back and read my response to Crichton's speech? I gave him a lot of credit for that, even though he is not a climate scientist. I consider this a much healthier form of skepticism than the form that completely shuts out the possibility of global warming while not even knowing the source and funding of your data.
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    6. #56
      Xei
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      I want a scientist, preferably in a related field. I said that several times. Crichton is not such a scientist.
      ...perhaps look up the definition of preferably? But ok, let's not get hung up on arguing for the sake of it.
      The list on Wikipedia was suggested as a good place to pull such a name from, but you didn't attempt to do so. Do you actually want me to systematically discredit as many as I can one by one? Would you actually read each of these posts? If yes, I'll begin, but I was hoping you could save everyone the bother and just point to your favorites. Or perhaps that is difficult for you because you don't know who these people are?
      Sure, discredit every one.

      You've asked for climate scientists who are skeptical.

      You've been given a whole list.

      What more do you want?? You've been given precisely what you asked for. So now the only thing left for you to do is discredit them.

      Although of course I can't give any evidence for this my old geography teacher has a PhD in geography and he said it was all scaremongering.

      By the way, what's with quoting Drew in your signature? Do you think he's wrong or something?

    7. #57
      Dreaming up music skysaw's Avatar
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      It's a very lazy approach to the challenge. I wonder how many I will have to do before you see a pattern?

      I do have a life, but I'll start thinning your pack a bit just for fun...

      the list.

      First up, Timothy Ball, PhD.
      Former Senior Economic Advisor to Russian President Vladimir Putin 2000-2005
      Founding member, Economic Freedom Network, set up by the Canadian-based Fraser InstituteDirector, Institute of Economic Analysis, Moscow. 1994-2000

      Expert, Heartland Institute ($676,500 From Exxon since 1998)
      Associate, Tech Central Science Foundation ($95,000 in 2003)

      Please let me know if you see any association or dollar amount you do not believe. I can post IRS documents and documents directly from Exxonmobil if you want, but it's going to seriously slow down the process.
      Last edited by skysaw; 12-23-2008 at 07:42 PM.
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    8. #58
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      Next up, Robert Carter

      Professor, Marine Geophysical Laboratory, James Cook University
      Former Director, Australian Secretariat for the Ocean Drilling Program
      Contributing Writer, Tech Central Stationfounding member, Australian Environment Foundation
      Founding member scientist, New Zealand Climate Science Coalition.

      Speaker, Heartland Institute ($676,500 From Exxon since 1998)
      Contributing Writer, Tech Central Science Foundation ($95,000 from Exxon in 2003)
      Last edited by skysaw; 12-23-2008 at 07:40 PM.
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    9. #59
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      Moving right along...

      Vincent Gray (Not American, but covering anyway)

      Expert Reviewer, Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change
      Contributing Writer, Tech Central Station
      Founding member, New Zealand Climate Science Coalition.
      Author of "The Greenhouse Delusion".

      Expert, Heartland Institute ($676,500 From Exxon since 1998)
      Contributing Writer, Tech Central Science Foundation ($95,000 from Exxon in 2003)
      CFACT delegation at UNFCCC '07, Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow ($542,000 from Exxon since 1998)
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    10. #60
      Dreaming up music skysaw's Avatar
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      I have now covered the part of the list labeled "Believe global warming is not occurring or has ceased"

      When you are ready to proceed, please say so. I'm running to grab a Pepsi.

      PS - the signature is just a minor celebration that Drew and I found some common ground. Something we both believe.
      Last edited by skysaw; 12-23-2008 at 07:46 PM.
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    11. #61
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      skysaw, it doesn't matter where they get their funding. If they've published articles in peer-reviewed journals, then what they're saying has some credence.

      I would also like to point out that your entire argument is self-defeating. I quote Al Gore: "You can’t make somebody understand something if their salary depends upon them not understanding it."

      Well put, Gore. And who's salary depends more on alarmism and pseudoscience than a climatologist?

    12. #62
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      Quote Originally Posted by drewmandan View Post
      skysaw, it doesn't matter where they get their funding. If they've published articles in peer-reviewed journals, then what they're saying has some credence.

      I would also like to point out that your entire argument is self-defeating. I quote Al Gore: "You can’t make somebody understand something if their salary depends upon them not understanding it."

      Well put, Gore. And who's salary depends more on alarmism and pseudoscience than a climatologist?
      Most climatologists are university professors or NASA engineers. Their interest is science, not displacing blame.

    13. #63
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
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      Indeed. You realise that every single person who specialises in anthropic global warming will have no source of income if anthropic global warming is discredited?

      So you can add every global warming scientist ever to your list of people who are potentially being funded to lie.

    14. #64
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      Quote Originally Posted by drewmandan View Post
      skysaw, it doesn't matter where they get their funding.
      This thought might have some merit if it were not such a demonstratably blatent trend. Are you saying there is no merit in questioning the motives of a publication? It's unbelieveable to me that the pattern means nothing to you. It is more than statistically significant. Am I to believe that these scientists funded by Exxon all just coincidentally deny global warming, against the general trend? Bullploppy.

      As to "salary depends upon them not understanding it" these people I am dissecting for you are the very epitome of that paradigm, and in fact that is the entire point of this thread.

      If they've published articles in peer-reviewed journals, then what they're saying has some credence.
      Ok, I'll bite. Please cite the articles that appear in peer-reviewed journals. Only please refrain from posting examples where the journal itself does not have direct ties to ExxonMobil. Same problem.
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    15. #65
      Xei
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      What's with Drew's quote still?

    16. #66
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Indeed. You realise that every single person who specialises in anthropic global warming will have no source of income if anthropic global warming is discredited?

      So you can add every global warming scientist ever to your list of people who are potentially being funded to lie.
      I don't for one second believe that you think scientists only have jobs due to the global warming scare. I'm sure if we were to consider all of them, we might find a few who think they need to be on that side for their job, but if they thought about it, they'd realise that the real bucks would be in simply signing on at Heartland Institute, and getting in on some of that loose oil money.

      Are you no longer interested in my dissecting the list? I wouldn't want to waste my time. Just say the word.

      What's with Drew's quote still?
      Answered in post #60
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    17. #67
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      Quote Originally Posted by skysaw View Post
      I don't for one second believe that you think scientists only have jobs due to the global warming scare. I'm sure if we were to consider all of them, we might find a few who think they need to be on that side for their job, but if they thought about it, they'd realise that the real bucks would be in simply signing on at Heartland Institute, and getting in on some of that loose oil money.
      So what you're saying is, despite the fact that you do believe that scientists will endorse the unpopular notion of there being no AGW for money, they won't ever endorse the popular notion of AGW for money, despite the fact that doing so would necessarily give them more good feelings, fame, and money? And on top of this, you're saying that if anyone was found that disagreed with the consensus, then they must be working for Exxon, and that the burden of proof is on us to prove that they're not?

      This is looking more and more like a cult movement to me.

    18. #68
      Dreaming up music skysaw's Avatar
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      Ok, I'm going to move onto the heading "Believe global warming will benefit human society," since this is probably the most irresponsible position, and I wouldn't want these lingering on anyone's "possible" list.

      Craig D. Idso (B.S., M.S., Ph.D. - Geography/Agronomy)
      Graduate Research Associate, office of Climatology, Arizona State University.
      Former Director of Environmental Science at Peabody Energy in St. Louis, MO.
      Co-produced the report, "The Greening of Planet Earth, Its Progression from Hypothesis to Theory," the Western Fuels Association (nice...).

      Chairman of the Board, Founder and Former President, Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change ($100,000 from Exxon since 1998)
      Expert, George C. Marshall Institute ($715,000 since 1999)
      Board of Academic and Scientific Advisors, Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow ($542,000 from Exxon since 1998)
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    19. #69
      Xei
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      I don't for one second believe that you think scientists only have jobs due to the global warming scare. I'm sure if we were to consider all of them, we might find a few who think they need to be on that side for their job, but if they thought about it, they'd realise that the real bucks would be in simply signing on at Heartland Institute, and getting in on some of that loose oil money.

      Are you no longer interested in my dissecting the list? I wouldn't want to waste my time. Just say the word.
      Of course there are. There's hundreds of people now getting PhDs in global warming.

      Continue if you want, but like I said, it's pretty pointless. And as soon as politics starts to take the centerground in a scientific issue something's gone very wrong.
      Answered in post #60
      Uhhhh okay. It's a fact, you see. People tend to agree on those.

    20. #70
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      Quote Originally Posted by skysaw View Post
      Ok, I'm going to move onto the heading "Believe global warming will benefit human society," since this is probably the most irresponsible position, and I wouldn't want these lingering on anyone's "possible" list.
      No. Do the rest of the last list.

    21. #71
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      Quote Originally Posted by drewmandan View Post
      So what you're saying is, despite the fact that you do believe that scientists will endorse the unpopular notion of there being no AGW for money, they won't ever endorse the popular notion of AGW for money, despite the fact that doing so would necessarily give them more good feelings, fame, and money?
      I believe I just said that that very scenario could happen. Want to do some research comparable to mine to look into it?

      And on top of this, you're saying that if anyone was found that disagreed with the consensus, then they must be working for Exxon, and that the burden of proof is on us to prove that they're not?
      No, obviously the burdon has been put on ME, since you all are too lazy to put forth one name you believe to be clean. That is why I have been going through that wikipedia list. I've also already said that there could be some not working for Exxon. This process is to find those persons, if any, and look at their opinions. So far, you have not contributed to that end.

      This is looking more and more like a cult movement to me.
      It could look like anything from your vantage point. You do not seem bother to do any of your own research.

      Look, my point from the very outset of this thread was that Exxon is buying scientific opinion. I have provided (and continue to provide) MOUNDS of evidence to support that claim. So far, there has been no evidence from anyone to the contrary. If your response to Exxon funding is "so what?" then we're done, and I don't see why you're posting. But it does matter to many other folks, and they may be interested in seeing this information.
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    22. #72
      Dreaming up music skysaw's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by drewmandan View Post
      No. Do the rest of the last list.
      That list was "Believe global warming is not occurring or has ceased." I have already covered all three entries. Please pay attention.
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    23. #73
      Dreaming up music skysaw's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Continue if you want, but like I said, it's pretty pointless. And as soon as politics starts to take the centerground in a scientific issue something's gone very wrong.
      Well hey, if it's pointless I'm happy to spend my time on other things. However, this concedes the point for me, since nobody could complete the challenge.

      It still blows my mind that it holds no significance for you, but what can I do. Your opinions are your own, and you're entitled to them.
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    24. #74
      Xei
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      ??? You asked for climatologists who are skeptical but not being paid. You've been given a list. You've assumed everybody on the list is being paid. And this equals a point for Skysaw?

      Great work.

    25. #75
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      ??? You asked for climatologists who are skeptical but not being paid. You've been given a list. You've assumed everybody on the list is being paid. And this equals a point for Skysaw?
      Of course it's a point for Skysaw. You said continuing on the list was pointless. You have now changed your mind?

      The challenge was for YOU to find ONE name not taking money. You lazily pointed to a wikipedia list someone else compiled. I systematically start taking that list apart, and you tell me there's no point in doing so. Then you blame me for stopping?? Holy crap, make up your mind.

      One last time. Do you or do you not want me to continue with the list? It is completely up to you.
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