• Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views




    Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
    Results 1 to 25 of 26
    Like Tree3Likes

    Thread: Choline and Nicotine

    1. #1
      LD's this year: ~7 tommo's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Melbourne
      Posts
      9,202
      Likes
      4986
      DJ Entries
      7

      Choline and Nicotine

      Just figured this out a while ago.
      Since I can't get any Galantamine or Piracetam etc. in Australia, I have been looking for other routes.
      Nicotine is anticholinesterase inhibitor as well, just like the 'acetams and Galantamine.
      So I took two Phosphatidyl choline (extract from soy lecithin - 420mg) pills and a Nicotine gum - 2mg (I just chewed and swallowed it, but I may get the pills instead next time).

      I gotta say, I think it's worked quite well. My memory feels great right now. I'm not taking ages to write this like I usually do. I'm gonna take another combo of this tonight and see if it affect my dreams as well. Will report back.

      Obvious note just in case: Don't take Nicotine pills/gum if you don't already smoke, as it is still addictive. Unless you have no regard for your health. Then go ahead.

    2. #2
      LD's this year: ~7 tommo's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Melbourne
      Posts
      9,202
      Likes
      4986
      DJ Entries
      7
      Just tried it this morning with a 1.5mg Nicotine mint pill thing and 420mg soy lecithin extract.
      Definitely a noticeable improvement in dream quality and recall. Almost instantly.
      I've barely been able to remember my dreams properly for the last year or so. I remembered 3 from just this morning, from around 8:00 - 9:30.

      I also had clarity and lucidity in the start of the last dream, but I was not lucid enough to realise I was dreaming.

    3. #3
      Previously Pensive Achievements:
      1 year registered Veteran First Class 5000 Hall Points
      Patrick's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2005
      Location
      UK
      Posts
      1,777
      Likes
      840
      Out of interest, how is Nicotine an ACE inhibitor? I thought it was just a nAChR agonist?

    4. #4
      LD's this year: ~7 tommo's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Melbourne
      Posts
      9,202
      Likes
      4986
      DJ Entries
      7
      ACE inhibitor is not anticholinesterase inhibitor.

      I don't know enough about it tbh. But you are right that it is a nAChR agonist.
      It increases the action of those receptors. So I figure taking more choline will allow it to increase further, in conjunction with the nicotine also increasing it.

      Maybe I was wrong that it's an anticholinesterase inhibitor though. I thought I had read that a while ago, but maybe not.

    5. #5
      Previously Pensive Achievements:
      1 year registered Veteran First Class 5000 Hall Points
      Patrick's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2005
      Location
      UK
      Posts
      1,777
      Likes
      840
      Oh sorry I read "Acetylcholinesterase". Never heard of anticholinesterase.

    6. #6
      See, for yourself ShadowOfSelf's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 2011
      LD Count
      Posts
      802
      Likes
      297
      Are you meant to swallow the gum lol

      Hmm been wanting to try a nicotine patch when I sleep but they're kind of expensive... would smoking a cigarette in a wbtb work just as well?

      And what does the choline do, just make it more effective?

    7. #7
      LD's this year: ~7 tommo's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Melbourne
      Posts
      9,202
      Likes
      4986
      DJ Entries
      7
      Quote Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick View Post
      Oh sorry I read "Acetylcholinesterase". Never heard of anticholinesterase.
      lol, still not ACE inhibitor.

      It's really complicated. You have anti-cholinesterase, which breaks down acetylcholinesterase in to choline (and acetic acid; irrelevant).
      Then you have an anti-cholinesterase inhibitor, which inhibits anti-cholinesterase from breaking down acetylcholine.
      and....

      Quote Originally Posted by ShadowOfSelf View Post
      And what does the choline do, just make it more effective?
      Choline/acetylcholine is the active chemical in all these nootropic formulas.
      I'm not sure how it works except that it is a neurotransmitter, a very fundamental one. So I guess more of it helps neurons communicate even better.
      It is also hypothesized that it helps the two hemispheres of the brain communicate more easily. But I don't really know.

      Quote Originally Posted by ShadowOfSelf View Post
      Are you meant to swallow the gum lol

      Hmm been wanting to try a nicotine patch when I sleep but they're kind of expensive... would smoking a cigarette in a wbtb work just as well?

      And what does the choline do, just make it more effective?
      I don't mind swallowing gum, it's not harmful lol But I got the pills now.
      The patches are expensive. Don't really know why. The mints are less expensive and that gum is the cheapest.
      Smoking with WBTB would work too, but it doesn't last as long, while mints and patches exert their effect for a longer time.
      Plus smoking may be too stimulating, stopping you from going back to sleep.

    8. #8
      See, for yourself ShadowOfSelf's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 2011
      LD Count
      Posts
      802
      Likes
      297
      Thanks for the response, tell us how you get on with the pills!

    9. #9
      Previously Pensive Achievements:
      1 year registered Veteran First Class 5000 Hall Points
      Patrick's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2005
      Location
      UK
      Posts
      1,777
      Likes
      840
      Tommo, don't you mean acetylcholinesterase (ACE) breaks down acetylcholine into choline and acetic acid, and anti-cholinesterase (ACE inhibitor) inhibits acetylcholinesterase?

      With regards what acetylcholine actually does, although it's still an important neurotransmitter in the brain, its main function is in the periphery, where it is released by motorneurons onto muscle cells. Hence blocking acetylcholine activity in the periphery (reducing ACh synthesis, increasing ACE activity, blocking ACh receptors etc.) results in muscle paralysis.
      Last edited by Patrick; 03-10-2012 at 11:55 AM.

    10. #10
      LD's this year: ~7 tommo's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Melbourne
      Posts
      9,202
      Likes
      4986
      DJ Entries
      7
      Quote Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick View Post
      Tommo, don't you mean acetylcholinesterase (ACE) breaks down acetylcholine into choline and acetic acid, and anti-cholinesterase (ACE inhibitor) inhibits acetylcholinesterase?
      No.... I meant cholinesterase breaks down acetylcholine in to choline and acetic acid.
      anti-cholinesterase inhibits cholinesterase from doing this.

      ACE inhibitor vvvv - completely different thing.
      ACE inhibitor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    11. #11
      Previously Pensive Achievements:
      1 year registered Veteran First Class 5000 Hall Points
      Patrick's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2005
      Location
      UK
      Posts
      1,777
      Likes
      840
      Quote Originally Posted by tommo View Post
      No.... I meant cholinesterase breaks down acetylcholine in to choline and acetic acid.
      anti-cholinesterase inhibits cholinesterase from doing this.

      ACE inhibitor vvvv - completely different thing.
      ACE inhibitor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      What the actual hell, you just repeated exactly what I said!!!!

    12. #12
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
      Banned
      Join Date
      Aug 2005
      Posts
      9,984
      Likes
      3084
      I just saw that post in the 'new posts' sidebar, and I thought to myself, "I bet he is replying to something tommo said".
      Patrick likes this.

    13. #13
      LD's this year: ~7 tommo's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Melbourne
      Posts
      9,202
      Likes
      4986
      DJ Entries
      7
      Quote Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick View Post
      What the actual hell, you just repeated exactly what I said!!!!
      no. You said "acetylcholinesterase (ACE) breaks down acetylcholine into choline and acetic acid"
      I said "cholinesterase breaks down acetylcholine in to choline and acetic acid."

      This really isn't going to lead anywhere though. I thought you wanted info on this. So I was giving you all I know.
      That's all. Unless you were going somewhere with it?

      I was hoping some other people could try this out as well. Coz I don't know if the choline is doing anything now, may just be the nicotine, which has known effects on dreaming.

    14. #14
      Previously Pensive Achievements:
      1 year registered Veteran First Class 5000 Hall Points
      Patrick's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2005
      Location
      UK
      Posts
      1,777
      Likes
      840
      Cholinesterase is actually a group of enzymes which break down acetylcholine. Acetylcholinesterase is one of the members of that family, and also breaks down acetylcholine. So they're pretty much the same thing in this circumstance.

      The end.

    15. #15
      LD's this year: ~7 tommo's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Melbourne
      Posts
      9,202
      Likes
      4986
      DJ Entries
      7
      Ahehehehehehm.

      Ok so I woke up at 5:30 this morning and took 1.5mg nicotine pill and a choline pill.

      I had some incredibly intense dreams. I also kept waking up a lot. Like every 5 minutes it felt like, but I can't be sure of the exact time. It felt like every dream went forever.

      One of the dreams I remember waking up and just instantly going "ohhh no, THAT was a dream?" "WTF!"

      It was really weird, the instant I opened my eyes I knew I had just been dreaming.
      Did an RC but to no avail.

      I'm going to do it again tomorrow morning. There are some very interesting effects here that I would like to explore.

    16. #16
      Wololo Achievements:
      Created Dream Journal Tagger Second Class 1000 Hall Points Made lots of Friends on DV Populated Wall Referrer Bronze Veteran First Class
      Supernova's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2009
      LD Count
      Gender
      Location
      Spiral out, keep going.
      Posts
      2,909
      Likes
      908
      DJ Entries
      10
      Acetylcholine transmits nerve impulses to muscles, how is that relevant?

    17. #17
      Member Huntstreet's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 2012
      LD Count
      6
      Gender
      Location
      USA
      Posts
      71
      Likes
      49
      DJ Entries
      3
      Interesting stuff. I use nicotine, but not choline. Is this something that you can get at a regular store that sells supplements, or do you have to order it online?

    18. #18
      LD's this year: ~7 tommo's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Melbourne
      Posts
      9,202
      Likes
      4986
      DJ Entries
      7
      Choline is not illegal anywhere, so any supplement store will sell it.
      If you can't find it, look for soy lecithin, as it is mostly choline.

      Supernova, it is a neurotransmitter.

    19. #19
      Previously Pensive Achievements:
      1 year registered Veteran First Class 5000 Hall Points
      Patrick's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2005
      Location
      UK
      Posts
      1,777
      Likes
      840
      Quote Originally Posted by Supernova View Post
      Acetylcholine transmits nerve impulses to muscles, how is that relevant?
      As I have already mentioned...

      Quote Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick View Post

      With regards what acetylcholine actually does, although it's still an important neurotransmitter in the brain, its main function is in the periphery, where it is released by motorneurons onto muscle cells. Hence blocking acetylcholine activity in the periphery (reducing ACh synthesis, increasing ACE activity, blocking ACh receptors etc.) results in muscle paralysis.
      And as tommo says, it is also an important neurotransmitter in the CNS. I think it has several neuromodulatory roles but not sure exactly.

    20. #20
      Member
      Join Date
      Feb 2012
      LD Count
      30
      Gender
      Posts
      477
      Likes
      128
      DJ Entries
      188
      The nicotine might work..but it also may give you cancer. Not worth it.
      Patrick likes this.

    21. #21
      LD's this year: ~7 tommo's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Melbourne
      Posts
      9,202
      Likes
      4986
      DJ Entries
      7
      Nicotine by itself may increase risk of cancer by about 1.2%, which is statistically insignificant. It's all the other shit they put in cigarettes that'll kill you.
      ShadowOfSelf likes this.

    22. #22
      Previously Pensive Achievements:
      1 year registered Veteran First Class 5000 Hall Points
      Patrick's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2005
      Location
      UK
      Posts
      1,777
      Likes
      840
      Quote Originally Posted by tommo View Post
      Nicotine by itself may increase risk of cancer by about 1.2%, which is statistically insignificant. It's all the other shit they put in cigarettes that'll kill you.
      How do you get that that's statistically insignificant? The result is 1.2%, but the significance is unknown unless you provide the sample size and the occurence of cancer in each subject. Then you could figure out if the chance of getting that 1.2% result by mere fluke is less than 5% (which would make it a significant result); which is probably where you're getting confused?

      Because you can be 1.2% more likely to get cancer through a certain behaviour, and it can certainly be statistically significant.

    23. #23
      LD's this year: ~7 tommo's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Melbourne
      Posts
      9,202
      Likes
      4986
      DJ Entries
      7
      I knew someone would pick up on that lol
      No, I don't know the exact figures, but there have not been many studies done on Nicotine alone, so I figured there is not enough data, and that .2% could easily be due to chance. I probably should have just said insignificant.
      Living near a busy road would do more damage.

    24. #24
      Previously Pensive Achievements:
      1 year registered Veteran First Class 5000 Hall Points
      Patrick's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2005
      Location
      UK
      Posts
      1,777
      Likes
      840
      Fair enough!

    25. #25
      Member Achievements:
      Referrer Bronze Veteran First Class Tagger Second Class Made lots of Friends on DV 5000 Hall Points
      snoop's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 2008
      LD Count
      300+
      Gender
      Location
      Indiana
      Posts
      1,715
      Likes
      1221
      Nicotine alone is probably what's responsible for your more vivid dreams. Caffeine, if you take it directly after waking up for WBTB has a pretty similar effect. Stimulants give you lighter sleep--the key is not to take a stimulant that will keep you awake. Nicotine and caffeine both work pretty indirectly as CNS stimulants, so they're pretty good to use for this purpose.

      Btw, if I had to guess, nicotine is a competitive agonist of acetylcholine receptors. If this is true, by making acetylcholine more available, you may be partially sabotaging yourself by taking choline. I doubt it really has an effect, but it's something to think about.

    Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

    Similar Threads

    1. Replies: 3
      Last Post: 12-23-2012, 02:13 AM
    2. Nicotine & Sleep
      By TrackerYoga in forum Sleep and Health
      Replies: 32
      Last Post: 03-29-2009, 03:11 AM
    3. Nicotine & Sleep
      By TrackerYoga in forum Lucid Aids
      Replies: 1
      Last Post: 11-10-2008, 10:17 PM
    4. nicotine
      By ollei in forum General Lucid Discussion
      Replies: 8
      Last Post: 03-13-2008, 02:20 PM
    5. Nicotine & Dreaming
      By Jesus_Smurf in forum The Lounge
      Replies: 4
      Last Post: 07-28-2004, 04:05 AM

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •