soya lecithin

Hi !

I have never tried any serious lucid aids besides bananas , apples, etc. on my wbtb

now, i have read about choline and bought a bottle of <Link Removed> soya lecithin capsules.



i had really interesting, fastpaced, vivid and long LDs ( what any Lder wants !! ) with just 3 capsules ( each capsule

providing 18mg of choline, 16mg of inositol and 24mg of phosphorus) which is far less than the recommended dose for LDing ( average 400 mg i guess )

but i found an interesting thing: i can only get good results if i chew the capsules, not if i swallow or drink !

im just afraid i can get desensitized. do you think its possible with such small dose ?

some guys take piracetam to avoid desensitization, but i don´t know..altough the dose is small the effect is so strong

Beside becoming desensitized its bad habit to repeatedly take food supplements despite what the directions may tell you. Look at the back of the bottle and you will see that often the RDA (recommended daily allowance) is almost 100-800% more less than what a single capsule contains.
As an example, I happened to be looking at iron tablets and they actually contained 800% the amount of b12 one should take everyday, not that it's a high figure but I wouldn't recommend it.

However looking at your tablets there really should be no problem, the amount of choline you are taking is relatively low and there isn't even a RDA for insotol, it actually enhances the effect of the choline and we consume almost a gram of it every day.
I think you should limit yourself to 2-3 times a week, just be sure to have a two or three days break so that the chemicals can be fully removed from your body.

Don't have the supplement yet, but I was considering getting some to see if it will help with dream recall. Until the time I get to buy it, I am thinking of drinking a glass or two of soy milk, which should contain some lecithin too and see if there are any effects.

As far as supplements in general are concerned, I think that taking a supplement once, twice a week will help you remain sensitive to it. One very extreme bad example of overuse I can think of is my mom who was taking melatonin every day to help her sleep and now she can't sleep without it, and she is so used to it, she actually can't use it help her fall asleep anymore either. That's melatonin but anything you overdo in frequency may cumulate in your body and lead to all kinds of side effects.

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

Don't have the supplement yet, but I was considering getting some to see if it will help with dream recall. Until the time I get to buy it, I am thinking of drinking a glass or two of soy milk, which should contain some lecithin too and see if there are any effects.

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thank you. if you try i would like to know about it ;)

i never tried soy milk, it looks interesting too

i will convince my family to take this pill at 4 am ;)

i want to see their faces next morning if it has any result !!

my dad just agreed ;)

Sure thing, will report back on trying soy milk.

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Originally Posted by VagalTone

i will convince my family to take this pill at 4 am ;)

i want to see their faces next morning if it has any result !!

my dad just agreed ;)

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That sounds like fun! Good luck! :D

Update: The previous day slept only 6.5 hrs, had 2 eggs for dinner (rich in lecithin) and a glass and a half of soy milk before bed. The result - during the 7 hours I slept, had vivid dreams and became lucid. It may have been the soya + eggs, a placebo effect, a possible unintentional REM rebound or a mix of those things. May try the egg soya combination before bed again to see if there are consistent results.

nice ! i dont know but perhaps that mix can work even better on a wbtb ??

last night i didn´t take it, but i will do it tonight and report some details

as a side note, my dad didn´t notice unusual thing :( but his mindset was like « ok, i will do it if it makes you happy »

tried again last night, but my excitement ( «im about to LD!!» ) lead me to insomnia ;)

i decided to wake up at usual time ( despite not having to ) giving myself the chance to have hopefully a rebound effect tonight

Thanks for the update! :) You may be right about taking the stuff during WBTB.

Yesterday: took 1 glass soy milk, vivid dreams, average dream recall, non-lucid

Today: 1 and half glass soy milk, rather poor recall, can't remember about vividness, short lucid when zombi DCs were heading towards me

Next steps: will be taking a break from soy milk because I have been gulping too much of the stuff lately. :D Will try to get some lecithin pills sometime next week and continue experimenting with them pre bed and WBTB and also try soy milk WBTB and eggs pre bed.

Purely as a side issue, have you ever smelt choline tablets?...they smell crappy. Choline is an important part of lecithin. I used to work in a margarine factory where they had kegs of lecithin (they add it to margarine as an emulsifier, but also for its anti-spattering characteristics). It was dark brown and had the consistency of very thick axle grease and it was a standing joke to "mould" it into the shape of a fresh "jobbie" (if you know what I mean)...in appearance you'd be hard put to tell the difference. Just a bit of trivia I thought might lighten your day. Enjoy your toast everyone

Lol, LukeSid, thanks for the info. Not sure I wanted to know these details but anyways...Good thing I don't eat margarine. :D

Btw, from what I've heard working in food production can change your views about a lot of things they sell. But then, unfortunately, we still need to eat. :P

I bought some lecithin capsules the other day which were 1200 mg each but I was horrified when I saw the size of each individual capsule (after opening the dark bottle.)
Sure enough I went to swallow one with water an hour before bed and of course it got lodged in my throat (or gullet to be more precise.)
Water or nothing would shift it, plus the capsule wasn't dissolving or breaking up. I nearly threw it back up again but I managed to get it to move down by moving my head and neck, plus by keeping calm (10 to 15 minutes later.)

You have to be careful with some of these capsules when swallowing, as you are not supposed to tilt your head back as apparently it narrows the throat, etc. (Not that I recall doing that?)

It was a bit painful, but I've had the experience before (with other tablets) so I know what to expect. :(

To get round it I split a capsule open with a knife. (The capsule skin was quite thick like soft plastic.) It is a messy process though.
Going on what lukeSid said, the liquid inside does remind you of axle grease in colour and consistency. I tried tasting it and the lecithin (liquid) tastes ok. This is how I will try it in future, by popping and chewing on the caspsule in my mouth, plus it should speed up the absorbtion time as there is no (thick) capsule to dissolve internally. :)

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Originally Posted by Highlander

I bought some lecithin capsules the other day which were 1200 mg each but I was horrified when I saw the size of each individual capsule (after opening the dark bottle.)
Sure enough I went to swallow one with water an hour before bed and of course it got lodged in my throat (or gullet to be more precise.)
Water or nothing would shift it, plus the capsule wasn't dissolving or breaking up. I nearly threw it back up again but I managed to get it to move down by moving my head and neck, plus by keeping calm (10 to 15 minutes later.)

You have to be careful with some of these capsules when swallowing, as you are not supposed to tilt your head back as apparently it narrows the throat, etc. (Not that I recall doing that?)

It was a bit painful, but I've had the experience before (with other tablets) so I know what to expect. :(

To get round it I split a capsule open with a knife. (The capsule skin was quite thick like soft plastic.) It is a messy process though.
Going on what lukeSid said, the liquid inside does remind you of axle grease in colour and consistency. I tried tasting it and the lecithin (liquid) tastes ok. This is how I will try it in future, by popping and chewing on the caspsule in my mouth, plus it should speed up the absorbtion time as there is no (thick) capsule to dissolve internally. :)

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Be careful Highlander, you maybe prone to pill esophagitis !

The capsules size can be terrifying , chewing is the best option, more comfort ( despite the taste ) and more efficacy.

Although it's early days yet, because I've had 2 LD's I (like anyone I suppose) am gagging to get some more. Choline & galantamine are meant for old farts like me...to offset Alzheimers. Of course, they are only available on the NHS to people with low/medium symptoms...and I ain't there yet. It's likely that my LD's came on the back of Laberge's thesis that getting up an hour early, staying up for an hour then WBTB the greatly increase chances of lucidity (both after 09.00 AM) But it's clear that lucid dreams are still hit-and-miss for me at the moment.

Of course, I could be closing the gap all the time, with increasing awareness and the right foodstuffs...who knows?

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Originally Posted by dutchraptor

Beside becoming desensitized its bad habit to repeatedly take food supplements despite what the directions may tell you. Look at the back of the bottle and you will see that often the RDA (recommended daily allowance) is almost 100-800% more less than what a single capsule contains.

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dutchraptor is dead right of course. Younger people like you are are basically using aids like this to enhance your experience I'm contemplating using them to achieve regular lucidity Old people usually have very little melatonin etc. But, apart from the fact that it's by no means certain yet that I'm going to need these aids, they're so bloody dear (I estimate that 1 tablet of galantamine is about £1 in the UK) Before I go down that road I'm going to tailor my diet towards foods high in melatonin and choline/lecithin. I can see that I'll probably never have ongoing enhanced lucidity but I can live with that

Maybe you should be careful. Who knows what could happen?

Attachment 5595



Foods High In Lecithin | LIVESTRONG.COM

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Originally Posted by VagalTone

Be careful Highlander, you maybe prone to pill esophagitis !

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Thanks VagalTone regarding the advice regarding the capsules which I will bear in mind.
Generally with normal sized pills I have no problem, although I always have to take them with fluids.

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Originally Posted by LukeSid

... Younger people like you are are basically using aids like this to enhance your experience I'm contemplating using them to achieve regular lucidity Old people usually have very little melatonin etc.

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Where does that put us 'middle-aged farts' who regularly acheive DILD's? :P

As one of the UK (property sales) sayings goes that it's all about "Location, location, location." Similar with dreaming it is about "Recall, recall, recall."

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Originally Posted by LukeSid

Maybe you should be careful. Who knows what could happen?

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Good advice!

Attachment 5595 = someone after a little too much L-Arginine maybe? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by dutchraptor

Look at the back of the bottle and you will see that often the RDA (recommended daily allowance) is almost 100-800% more less than what a single capsule contains.

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While what you say is true, the RDA of choline is roughly 550mg. Even though he may be getting enough from food sources, 54 mg a day is not going to cause any problems.

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Originally Posted by Highlander

Where does that put us 'middle-aged farts' who regularly acheive DILD's? :P
As one of the UK (property sales) sayings goes that it's all about "Location, location, location." Similar with dreaming it is about "Recall, recall, recall."

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Point taken Highlander and a reflection of my undying self-doubt. I assume you're saying it's all about memory improvement? In a way, now I've had 2 minor LD's I'm worse. I'm looking at diet and pills as the answer because I still believe that my 69 years are the cause of of my problem in achieving #3...I think "well I've done it twice why not reasonably regularly from now on?"

Re visualisation. I assume that means seeing images with eyes closed? Well I don't...and quite a few others don't judging by this.
dfan says» Blog Archive » I (still) don’t see anything when I close my eyes Does that have any relevance on my chances of greater lucidity?

I must admit I dabble in ADA and memory exercises. . I do have a certain amount of attention deficit, which I get around by switching from one exercise to another and never concentrating on one...and hoping that the sum-total of what I do will add up to lucidity. Maybe it will if I continue with them in tandem

I'm good with mantras...where was I 5 minutes ago? regular "I am dreaming" exercises with Rc's....not just by rote...things like that. I know I rest too much on the "I'm very old" excuse and I've got do greater memory and awareness...in fact, just discussing it here I can see how it would "stretch" the brain and expand the consciousness...I have to take the pain

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Originally Posted by LukeSid

Point taken Highlander and a reflection of my undying self-doubt. I assume you're saying it's all about memory improvement? In a way, now I've had 2 minor LD's I'm worse. I'm looking at diet and pills as the answer because I still believe that my 69 years are the cause of of my problem in achieving #3...I think "well I've done it twice why not reasonably regularly from now on?"

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The thing is you know you have done it before so it will happen again, that's how I look at things. It can take time.

Often I get really short DILD's where a lot of people wouldn't even bother recording inc. hypnagogia, dreamlets, etc.
Yet along with the chaff comes the wheat. I have to work at those which are more fewer and far between. I have never really had a WILD as such, but I always try and class an attempt as an opportunity to learn (or learn from) rather than see it as a failure.
So if I didn't have a journal system then my dreams and experiences would drop (I guess) like a stone; which comes to my point about motivation which is (as you probably know) is key also.

The good thing is you are really keen and have a great sense of humour. I know you mention your age, but the thing is none of us can turn back the clock. Us 'oldies' can have the advantage however of tapping into a wealth of knowledge, experience, memories and past dreams - so we have a head start there!
Sure the chemistry is different, but nothing is ever impossible.
(In the East the 'old man' is always depicted as the wise one - look at Yoda for instance. He hobbles about with his walking stick but at the same time his mind is badass!)
It doesn't help with the Western media (money) machine - it seems biased towards the young IMO, where they want everybody to all kowtow to the Kardashians! :whyme:

With the pills/supplements then that is a personal choice where it would be prudent to do your research like you have been doing, especially as some you can get a tolerence to if you take them too regularly.
The main one would be to make sure it didn't react with any other medication you had been prescribed off the doctor, so it is always best to seek professional advice if you are older even if you are using herbs I guess.

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Originally Posted by LukeSid

Re visualisation. I assume that means seeing images with eyes closed? Well I don't...and quite a few others don't judging by this.
dfan says» Blog Archive » I (still) don’t see anything when I close my eyes Does that have any relevance on my chances of greater lucidity?

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If you dream and remember your dreams then you are visualizing; period. (@ Alpha/Theta brainwave state.)
When we are awake we generally tend to be in Beta; whilst a creative state (visualisation) is more Alpha/Theta.

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Originally Posted by LukeSid

I must admit I dabble in ADA and memory exercises. . I do have a certain amount of attention deficit, which I get around by switching from one exercise to another and never concentrating on one...and hoping that the sum-total of what I do will add up to lucidity. Maybe it will if I continue with them in tandem

I'm good with mantras...where was I 5 minutes ago? regular "I am dreaming" exercises with Rc's....not just by rote...things like that. I know I rest too much on the "I'm very old" excuse and I've got do greater memory and awareness...in fact, just discussing it here I can see how it would "stretch" the brain and expand the consciousness...I have to take the pain

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Mental exercises and MILD affirmations are great tools for us students, whether young or old.

Good luck BTW. :thumbup:

Never underestimate them old farts. Those guys can be very persistent and in the end it is persistence that wins the ld battle. :putemuppunk: A lot of the, hmm, how should I say, skilled lders here are not kids but adults that have struggled hard to find out a system that works for them and have consistently applied it over and over again (and ever seeking means to improve their skills).

For that matter, I have had lds for as long as I can remember, about 1-2 lds a month for many years. I have been at this level until last year when I decided to become more serious, and finally this year something clicked. Therefore, I've had more lds in the last 2 years than in the previous, say 10 years. Hence, I can say that age is not the single factor that you must look at when analyzing lding.

I know there are many angles to look at this but let me see what are some main points that quickly come to my mind. I actually still haven't read Yushak's book but it seems to me that neurotransmitters play a great role in lds. (among other things which we may discuss some other time). With regards to that experimenting with foods and supplements and their respective effects on lds seems quite logical.

The problem with age is that we suffer a decline in the number of cells and receptors so intake of foods boosting these neurotransmitters becomes less effective. However, not all is lost because neurogenesis and neuroplasticity are on our side. Neurogenesis means you can grow new brain cells. Some things that help neurogenesis are physical and mental exercise along with foods like blueberries, green tea and curcumin. I think meditation helps with that as well as with neuroplasticty. Neuroplasticity is about the changes inside your brain, different connections, etc. Usually, behavior/actions/thoughts that are repeated form stronger connections in the brain, allowing for a quicker execution next time. Well, I believe lding is no exception to this and in the long run as one gets to do this more and more, these connections get stronger and it becomes easier. So, above a certain treshold lucidity is about to bring more lucidity. Therefore, you may be getting better with lding even if as you are unavoidably growing older.

Ok, this post is getting long already so I am going to stop here, but I think you get the point.

I also want to say that I am really happy to see that there are great guys like you that are genuinely interested in getting into the very essence of things, keep on researching and asking questions, analyzing and sharing all this stuff. This collective effort makes it so much easier for so many people on this website and saves us all lots of precious time.

Highlander has shared his dream and ld history and I am very impressed how much he has achieved over the years, what is more, he is getting better and better at this. :goodjob2:

LukeSid, you also have my admiration for starting on the path of lding and being so persitent about it. :goodjob: It's great that you have succeded in inducing lds and I am sure many more are waiting for you. By the way, talking about supplements and wbtb, you may also want to check another thread where we have been experimenting with caffeine.

Caffeine as a trigger

Sweet dreams to all! :)

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Originally Posted by Highlander

I have never really had a WILD as such, but I always try and class an attempt as an opportunity to learn (or learn from) rather than see it as a failure.

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i have never been successful doing WILD and I'm not sure why. I get SP and rushes but nothing else. Most blogs say it's because we're not asleep enough. I get a little sign that I'm on the edge...just a little snort (a mini-snore) but never progress from that. I found an interesting blog from lucidpedia

7 Common WILD Problems - Blog | Lucidipedia.com

"For some people the dream won’t create itself visually. Those people will need to open their eyes once the WILD is successful and the dream is already formed." If you don't see it how do you know when it's formed? It talks about visual, auditory (due to an accident, I'm partially deaf and I've got tinnitus) and sensory "when I start a WILD, I try to feel the ground in the dream first. I touch and feel around like a lost blind man. Once I’m confident that I’m in a dream, I open my eyes." What does he mean? If I feel a bed I'm still here...if I feel cow pasture I'm somewhere else? I just don't understand

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Originally Posted by Highlander

The good thing is you are really keen and have a great sense of humour. I know you mention your age, but the thing is none of us can turn back the clock. Us 'oldies' can have the advantage however of tapping into a wealth of knowledge, experience, memories and past dreams - so we have a head start there!Sure the chemistry is different, but nothing is ever impossible

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Right on. You've got to laugh (at everything....including your own death, the biggest joke of all. After a lifetime of accumulating wisdom and knowledge Pooof! Up in smoke..."I don't mind dying...I just don't want to be there when it happens" - Spike Milligan God bless him)
.

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Originally Posted by Highlander

(In the East the 'old man' is always depicted as the wise one - look at Yoda for instance. He hobbles about with his walking stick but at the same time his mind is badass!)

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You've met the wife then? Thanks for responding Highlander...you're Welsh right? (my humour can be remorseless...on a desert island, you'd want to kill me)
I take on board everything that the regulars on here say and you may have seen enough of my scribbles to know that I won't give up...I may winge, but I won't give up and I may overdose...then I'll give up.... Regards and thanks

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

Never underestimate them old farts. Those guys can be very persistent and in the end it is persistence that wins the ld battle.

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...and if we can do nothing else, we sure can fart.

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

A lot of the, hmm, how should I say, skilled lders here are not kids but adults that have struggled hard to find out a system that works for them and have consistently applied it over and over again (and ever seeking means to improve their skills).
For that matter, I have had lds for as long as I can remember, about 1-2 lds a month for many years. I have been at this level until last year when I decided to become more serious, and finally this year something clicked. Therefore, I've had more lds in the last 2 years than in the previous, say 10 years. Hence, I can say that age is not the single factor that you must look at when analyzing lding.

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I take a look of comfort from that NyxCC. I tend to think that this site is awash with pimply 16 year olds when, of course, that's Live Leak

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

neurogenesis and neuroplasticity are on our side. Neurogenesis means you can grow new brain cells.

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That's amazing because that's exactly one of my approaches. "OK...my brain cells might have atrophied but stroke victims find new neural pathways, so regenerate Ed" also, if I suddenly decide to get fit I'd have to start slow and build up. When I first tried to WILD the SP and rushes were unbelievable Afterwards, I felt that I might have blown a fuse...I tried too early and maybe Ed's avoiding WILD's like the plague. Also, coffee's one of little planned experiments...having one or two espressos, just to see the result. Thanks a lot for the advice NxyCC . I love this site...not least because people are intelligent and civilised. Nice talking to you. I'm off for my one hour warmup, sacred dance and magic incantations...then back into the fray.

Thanks once again...and I love you all! (in a non-sexual purely platonic kind of way of course)

@ NyxCC.
Thanks for sharing and for your complements. Likewise.

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Originally Posted by LukeSid

"For some people the dream won’t create itself visually. Those people will need to open their eyes once the WILD is successful and the dream is already formed." If you don't see it how do you know when it's formed? It talks about visual, auditory (due to an accident, I'm partially deaf and I've got tinnitus) and sensory "when I start a WILD, I try to feel the ground in the dream first. I touch and feel around like a lost blind man. Once I’m confident that I’m in a dream, I open my eyes." What does he mean? If I feel a bed I'm still here...if I feel cow pasture I'm somewhere else? I just don't understand

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You can always check out this DV guide which should help you (and me) :
http://www.dreamviews.com/wild/13150...g-sageous.html

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Originally Posted by LukeSid

...and if we can do nothing else, we sure can fart.

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Lol. :lol:

(O.P: My apologies for going a bit off topic.)

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Originally Posted by Highlander

(O.P: My apologies for going a bit off topic.)

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Apology accepted ! Btw, i am loving this funny and friendly off topic discussion :) I think we are all wishing for LukeSid's 3rd lucid :)