Galantamine/Alpha-GPC

**bula** · 10-12-2013 03:02 AM

I've recently gotten back into LDing after a few years without practicing it. Of course, since I had a solid period of successful LDing, I am a little bit beyond excited to start having them again since I know what's possible

I bought some alpha-GPC (delivers choline to the brain as well as being an acetylcholine precursor, crosses BBB better than choline alone) locally, and am waiting on some galantamine since this seems to be the closest to the holy grail of LD aids (other than herbs that I'm not comfortable doing, being in recovery). I know that most people use galantamine/choline after a few hours of sleep to take advantage of the peak plasma levels and corresponding longer REM periods. However, I have sleep problems (trouble falling asleep, but mostly staying asleep). This has left me in a bit of a quandary. I tried Alpha-GPC before bed and basically, I just had very "chaotic" dreams that might as well been a string of nonsensical words; like a dream on speed. It wasn't vivid or conducive to LDing.

Because WBTB and WILD is sort of what I want to avoid, I'm wondering why it wouldn't be possible to just take the galantamine and choline in the morning, or even afternoon for that matter. Obviously, the plasma levels won't be quite as high, but it's still better than nothing right or is it counter-productive in some way I'm not seeing? Also, for those that have had Alpha-GPC and galantamine by themselves, can you compare the "potency" of the two (since both effectively increase acetylcholine levels)?

Of course, I am keeping a dream journal, doing lots of RCs and focussing on LDing (just in general) throughout the day. However, I remember that it does take some time to start being successful, no matter how dedicated or confident you are so I'm just looking to boost my chances of starting to have LDs sooner.

Thanks!

EDIT: Also, it might be worth mentioning that I drink kava a few times a week for anxiety/insomnia and notice that it creates vivid dreams. I look forward to trying it as a LD aid and I'll be sure to let everyone know how that goes, but I need to get more successful LDs under my belt before undertaking stuff that isn't a known LD aid.

**FryingMan** · 10-12-2013 11:41 AM

If you haven't yet, you may want to check out Thomas Yuschak's supplements for LD book. The graphs there show that galantamine really is only present in any concentration in the next few hours after taking it.

I also have "long back to sleep" sometimes if I do mentally stimulating things other than simply journaling. Doing things that promote the body's need for sleep (like regular intensive exercise) or maybe purposefully getting less sleep one night in order to sleep more the next (REM rebound) may work nicely when coordinated with galantamine/gpc.

I'm leery though of the supplements route, I've read one reviewer of the book who says he lost the ability to LD without those supplements for a year after only taking one shipment's worth, and that he was LDing for 10 years previous to that. There's no doubt they work, though...

**bula** · 10-12-2013 04:23 PM

Thanks. I haven't read that book yet, although I've seen it mentioned extensively throughout these forums. I'm reading that it has linear pharmacokinetics (clearance rate remains constant as dose changes). Unless I'm mistaken, because the drug's half life is ~7 hours, and if we assume 100% BA of an 8mg dose, after 7 hours, 4mg will still be in plasma. Maybe what he measured was the levels/effect of galantamine on acetylcholinesterase? If you have the book do you mind taking a snap of that page for me (I couldn't find it at the library, thanks!)

I'm thinking I might just bite the bullet and do some WBTB or WILDing maybe two nights out of the week when I can manage it. I'm excited to try another WILD since yesterday afternoon I took a nap and almost had a WILD, but the strong pressure sensation on my chest and the tingling throughout my body kept kind of bringing me out of (what seemed like) SP and I kept changing positions and once I finally gave up, that's of course when I fell through to sleep

Last night I had my first, intentional lucid dream thus far though! While my lucidity was short, I wasn't exactly stabilized in the dream, no wishing to be. I had other ideas on my mind... I seemed to lose lucidity in the act with my DC, but still, short as it was, it was very nice. Also, I was able to wake up and remember 5 different dreams! My recall was astronomically higher. This could be due to the fact that I
1. Stopped taking an anti-histamine to help me sleep
2. Took some Alpha-GPC throughout the day yesterday.

Regardless, I am aware of the delicate nature of neurobiological functioning and will be sure to keep the supplements down to a minimum. This series of dreams last night is very encouraging, and I don't want to lose that.

thanks again!

**FryingMan** · 10-12-2013 05:43 PM

Ah right you are, galantamine has a peak plasma time of 1 hour and an elimination half-life of 7 hours.
GPC has a peak plasma time of 3.5 hours and an elimination half-life of 1.5 hours.
The author also takes 0.3mg of melatonin with them since they can make it harder to get back to sleep.

I may try only if all else fails, say, after a year of constant determined effort doesn't get me close to the frequency / experience I desire.

**bula** · 10-12-2013 06:08 PM

Alright, thanks for checking up on that. I'm guessing that the GPC's half-life is a bit misleading (especially taken with galantamine) because it's probably measuring the actual compound's half-life instead of the half-life of the effect it elicits since it's really only a precursor to acetylcholine. I would bet that the physiological effects of the GPC are longer lasting than the half-life would indicate. It's actually a good sign that the half-life is only 1.5 hrs, because I'm guessing that means that it is acetylcholine is synthesized fairly rapidly. How long that acetylcholine is actually available for neural activity is another thing, but one thing is for sure, if an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor like galantamine is taken concurrently, it should keep that acetylcholine "free" and "active" much longer.

Regarding melatonin, doesn't that suppress REM (eventually causing an REM rebound)? If you take it after 4 hrs of sleep along with G/GPC, wouldn't the REM be suppressed when you're really trying to have it (ie. later in sleep)?

**FryingMan** · 10-12-2013 07:16 PM

Yes melatonin is a REM inhibitor in general but the author recommends such a small quantity (0.3mg) and claims that at that small level there is no REM inhibition but still helps to get to sleep countering the alertness effect of the galantamine/GPC. He emphasized to be really careful with the melatonin dosage because too much more, say a dose of 0.5 mg, he found to inhibit dreaming. I'm sure the amount is different for everyone but the key thing is start really low and only increase if necessary.