Thread: What do you guys think of Luci? Kickstarter

Hi Rynkrt3,

I removed the link, since it's not allowed. If you would like an opinion on a product, please post it's description. Thank you.

*moved to Lucid aids

I wonder if Sageous has an opinion. It sounds promising to me. The test results they posted are similar to some of the regular lucid dreamers on here, so if I can just get there "naturally" along with the benefit of more self awareness and improved waking life, I would prefer to skip the expensive device...but it is tempting.

It supposedly detects REM brainwaves through a head band and then produces a verbal alert into an earphone twice to let you know you are dreaming.

I'v seen the kick starter video, and I don't really see how it is any different from the "other" lucid dreaming induction devices that they mentioned. I think even though the sound might bleed into the dream, you'd still have to be actively attempting to lucid dream to realize what the voice is saying and to act upon it, and then once you are lucid you would have no way of turning the voice off which could get annoying and could possibly wake you up. Although it is nice to see an active attempt to bring lucid aids to the spotlight.

Call me optimistic but i think it is easy to make a sound recorder you can turn off while in a lucid dream

All lucid dreaming induction devices work through the same principle, EILD (externally induced lucid dream). No device that used EILD as of yet claims to produce results without first learning to recognize the external stimuli. For example, the REMI states that you must learn to reality check when you see a light source. just like how the LUCI will utilize a similar method with sound.
Problem with these devices is that they rely on us noticing the outside stimulus by it bleeding into the dream, but as most of us know this is a fairly unreliable method. Our brains don't actually analyze outside stimulus (as much) when we are asleep, we mainly react to peaks of information (loud noises, bright light, cold wind, getting hit etc).

So that presents the first problem, you must really become instinctively accustomed to the noise that the LUCI plays, which leads to the second problem.....you might become too used to the sound and start ignoring it.

I'd say to just wait it out and see if anyone produces some proper long term results. The underlying theory makes sense, so the product will hopefully produce some good results.

Originally Posted by fogelbise

I wonder if Sageous has an opinion.

When have I not had an opinion?

I looked at the Kickstarter "ad" for this, and my first thought was,"Why don't I ever do this stuff? 212 grand for a nicely dressed, cleverly named, biofeedback EEG machine that was likely first designed and extensively used in the '60's? Absolutely brilliant!

Next, the author's premise that light-emitting devices (aka, the NovaDreamer) were "out of the question" is disingenuous at best, and flat out wrong in practice. When LaBerge and his cohorts were designing the DreamLight (NovaDreamer's granpappy), they chose a light stimulus because it turned out that light was the best external stimulant they tried -- including sound. As Dutchraptor pointed out above, it isn't the sound or light that matters, it is your prepared ability to sense that sound or light's intrusion into your dream that matters.

For what it's worth, the Lucidity Institute did offer a thing called the DreamSpeaker back in the '90's, which did pretty much exactly what Luci does. I have one, and can attest, albeit anecdotally, that it worked just as well as light, if not a bit more poorly.

Next opinion: of course his machine worked the first time he used it! Anything would, considering all the expectation that would have been built into this process. For me, "a little more than half the time" success rate is not very impressive, and is probably the same results you'd get from a Novadreamer or other similar REM-detecting device.

My final opinion, which echoes Dutchraptor again: successful LD'ing does not come from the machines; it comes from you. If you are mentally prepared enough to detect an external sound (or light) during a dream and use that detection to know you're dreaming, you likely are prepared enough to not have needed the external stimulus in the first place! So it might be better to just work on your mental prep and save the money.

Still, I am a little jealous that this guy converted a tried-and-true, if not fairly tired EILD machine concept into a healthy chunk of change. I often wonder if I should kick myself for never abandoning all pride and conscience and trying to do this myself...

Look here guys and gals:

How many DVers think LUCI will work?

This link leads to another DV thread of DynoTAP`s.

Maybe he will make a poll - or I´ll do - if you are interested in it.

It is a scam. I have worked on an open source project that costs less and offers more, minus all the lucid dreaming hype.

Take a quick look at this headband for reference:



The electrodes are in the front where they can make skin contact without requiring you to shave. And, more importantly, where the eye movements can be measured. If I wear it back to front, the EEG reading flat-lines.

Similar to the REMEE, they are selling people on the idea of lucid dreaming. Not a product that has been researched and (from their KickStarter page): "To our great surprise and excitement, the prototype produced a lucid dream the very first night! In the weeks of tests that followed, our prototype managed to produce a lucid dream the majority of the time".

A lot of people will be very disappointed again when it does not work as advertised. An untested audio track played without proper preparation will wake you up. And the plastic headband will stretch after three nights of giving you a sweaty forehead. I tested two dozen headbands made from various materials before I found one that works. And they do not have any EEG data to show - I wouldn't be surprised if they are just randomly playing the audio tracks.

As EV said about the REMEE: "such scams hurt the public’s good faith in the development of real, evidence and science based lucid dream induction aids."

^^ And yet he still gets his quarter mil. What a world.

@IAmCoder

Did you notice the third party 'amplifier' as well!

I have found a bit of information regarding the electrode contact.

Quote - Creator GXP Technologies on Oct 15

Thank you for all your support! Here are the answers to your questions so far...
- The pledge amount includes shipping worldwide
- Depending on the amount of funds, we plan on implementing a USB port which will allow you to customize the message.
- The amplifier will be small enough to be worn on you or sit on a night table.
- The dry electodes are quite comfortable. While they look pointy, the "points" are closely dispersed, so you feel only a single object on your head. And after a few minutes, you don't feel it at all.
- If you still have a need to be aware of the outside environment, you can wear only one earbud.
- We plan on perforating the silicone to make it breathable. The system itself doesn't get hot since the electronics aren't on the headband.

Even so, there is no mention of a reference electrode whatsoever.

^^ Also, I just noticed that you cannot customize the audio message. It seems odd that such 1980's technology couldn't be included, and does indeed limit the unit's usefulness -- assuming of course that the electrodes work at all. Nice to know he'll add a USB port if people pour him some more money, though!

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Also, I just noticed that you cannot customize the audio message. It seems odd that such 1980's technology couldn't be included, and does indeed limit the unit's usefulness -- assuming of course that the electrodes work at all. Nice to know he'll add a USB port if people pour him some more money, though!

Quote - Update 15

How many times does the voice alert me?

Twice. This was the optimal setting for all our testers. If the voice is fuzzy or overlooked the first time, it plays again making sure that you hear it. Since your brain wants to keep dreaming, you won't wake up.

What language will it speak? Can I customize it?

English for now. The message says "This is a dream, take control."

If we end up adding a USB port, we will add a feature allowing you to create your own message. Who knows, maybe hearing your own voice, or a loved one's will work even better!


Quote - Creator GXP Technologies 1 day ago

There will be a USB port, but it will be limited to installing a sound file for now. The English alert will be pre-installed by default.

Output functionality to a computer is on the drawing table, but will require us to develop a software application.

According to the above then a USB port will be included. plus the option of personalising your own message.

Originally Posted by Sageous

It seems odd that such 1980's technology couldn't be included, and does indeed limit the unit's usefulness...

I prefer the '80s myself. A lot of things seem 'over-engineered' these days. Less can indeed be more!

Personally I prefer methods that don't use these crutches. I remember all the hype about the Remee and when I tried it out it either fell off unconsciously or It never got timed right. Never got properly lucid and when I saw the lights once I barely understood what they meant. The other ones that detect REM sleep are so bulky it's ridiculous and personally sleeping with earphones is incredibly uncomfortable so that thing won't work for me. There's no need to spend so much money for that thing just get a loop of a long track that's 90 minutes long and at the 90 minute place have your own voice saying your dreaming. I've listened to that track looped so it would hopefully get close to hitting all my REM cycles. It never worked in the 7 days I tried it. i couldn't fall asleep sometimes and others it probably got timed wrong. Sometimes it even woke me up from a dream. So i don't believe in these EILDs cause they have never worked for me

^^ I think you have the right point of view (and, by trying this stuff out, you achieved it the right way as well).

EILD is a misnomer, I think, as these machines don't induce anything; they only offer some assistance to an already prepared mind. After the placebo effect wears off, if your mind isn't ready to be lucid, then, aside from some discomfort and annoying sounds, nothing will happen.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ I think you have the right point of view (and, by trying this stuff out, you achieved it the right way as well).

EILD is a misnomer, I think, as these machines don't induce anything; they only offer some assistance to an already prepared mind. After the placebo effect wears off, if your mind isn't ready to be lucid, then, aside from some discomfort and annoying sounds, nothing will happen.

The magic word being "currently".
In the future we will have the capability to expand beyond sight, hearing and touch and directly implement lucid dreams. In fact we can already do it now, just no one has the truly started (except for a few) and I can't do it myself since I have no engineering background, yet I do know the principle.
Frankly I find it weird that no one had ever looked into it commercially, probably because people are scared of directly interfering with the brain.
Look for TMS on dreamviews and you'll find some threads about alternative forms of EILD which should have a high success rate.

^^ Yes, "currently" indeed!

And when a machine that works becomes available, I will not only be accepting of it, but I'll be first in line to buy one, cash in hand!

I'm not as sure as you are about technology being available now, though. It seems that the more we learn about the relationships between brain physiology and consciousness, the more complex things get, and the more elusive those "triggers" for lucidity become... but of course I could be wrong...

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Yes, "currently" indeed!

And when a machine that works becomes available, I will not only be accepting of it, but I'll be first in line to buy one, cash in hand!

I'm not as sure as you are about technology being available now, though. It seems that the more we learn about the relationships between brain physiology and consciousness, the more complex things get, and the more elusive those "triggers" for lucidity become... but of course I could be wrong...

You are right, I should have specified that in theory the device is solid. I''m not one for thinking that brain is overly complex but that's subjective. We'll wait and see, I give it 5-10 years

All the 'machines' marketed always seem to concentrate on wearing the damn thing all night. Of course it is going to be uncomfortable! I could never understand some of these designers. It is not natural to wear one of those things on your heed... plus you might get a visit from the Fashion Police.

Wear the device post-WBTB! The REM periods are longer early morning, thus you have more of a chance of having an (elusive) EILD then.
This rules out the 5hr start of the night timers, etc.

^ I did read something ages ago where an electric current (weak) was applied to a part of a person's brain tissue briefly. It was invasive as part of his skull was open. They touched/stimulated a part of the brain known to store memories.
The bloke was conscious during this where he relived the whole memory again.

Originally Posted by Highlander

All the 'machines' marketed always seem to concentrate on wearing the damn thing all night. Of course it is going to be uncomfortable! I could never understand some of these designers. It is not natural to wear one of those things on your heed... plus it is a crime according to the Fashion Police; AKA = Bedhead.

Wear the device post-WBTB! The REM periods are longer early morning, thus you have more of a chance of having an (elusive) EILD then.
This rules out the 5hr start of the night timers, etc.

^ I did read something ages ago where an electric current (weak) was applied to a part of a person's brain tissue briefly. It was invasive as part of his skull was open. They touched/stimulated a part of the brain known to store memories.
The bloke was conscious during this where he relived the whole memory again.

That is similar to the principal of TMS ( transcranial magnetic stimulation). We generally know the pattern of the brain during a lucid dream, and what parts are most active. The main idea is that we can stimulate neurons in those regions with a simlar pattern using magnetism or in the case of TCDS a direct metal strip. TMS is known to be effective in increasing the capacity to reason and the use for completely disabling a brain, it's a very powerful technology.

Guys, do NOT invest in this! I repeat, DON'T.

It's a scam. Read the comments section and the screenshots/videos made by ex-backers. There is no product.

Originally Posted by Timothy Paradox

Guys, do NOT invest in this! I repeat, DON'T.

It's a scam. Read the comments section and the screenshots/videos made by ex-backers. There is no product.

Do you have a link - or if that is for some reason not possible in here - a description of how to reach that page and see these?

There is nothing suspicious at a glance on their own page of course - so - where did you get this from?
Thanks in advance.

Edit: Weell - maybe there is something suspicious - upon glancing a tiny bit deeper:

Originally Posted by LUCI kicktraq

07.11.13
Hey Folks! Very constructive comments and suggestions. Thanks!
We are looking into the possibility of completely redesigning the device with your suggestions. Some things we never thought of now seem comnpletely necessary. We will keep you posted on how far we can take it.

Here are some responses to your suggestions:

• A power-on confirmation would be cool, but we'll probably keep it simple, like in the form of hearing your actual brainwaves for like 5 seconds when you turn it on.

• For the external speakers options, you will be able to plug amplified speakers to the stereo jack.

• I wouldn't pay attention to the naysayers. There will always be naysayers and skeptics about everything. There are some people even denying the existence of lucid dreams, even though half the population has already experienced at least one in their lifetimes!

• We wanted to offer a set of 2 luci's and a set of 4, but Kickstarter made us remove them saying that we can't offer more than one of our product. In the set of 2, one of them was the original, and the other was a Limited Editions, and they still wouldn't accept it.

• We've tested the headband on all head sizes, including children. If your head is really huge, maybe we could offer an extender, but you would have to cut the headband. The silicone material we will be using has an elasticity of 500%.

• In order to avoid false alerts, the device will only trigger when it samples the desired frequency for 60 seconds non-stop. We experience 4-5 REM stages per night, each progressively longer, so there will be plenty of opportunities.

Originally Posted by LUCI kicktraq

11.11.13 We have narrowed down our search for a circuit designer who will be capable of implementing the features you all asked for.

We are very excited that these features are now plausible and we hope to deliver the best product possible in the spring!

Please look out for our next update where we will be compiling a list of all the requested features. It will be the last chance to add things to the list before the project goes into full force.

Thank you once again for all your support!!!

Still - would be nice to know where you saw videos and actual ex-backer´s comments!

Originally Posted by StephL

Do you have a link - or if that is for some reason not possible in here - a description of how to reach that page and see these?

There is nothing suspicious at a glance on their own page of course - so - where did you get this from?
Thanks in advance.

Edit: Weell - maybe there is something suspicious - upon glancing a tiny bit deeper:





Still - would be nice to know where you saw videos and actual ex-backer´s comments!

Because I AM a backer. $1 gets you the right to see the comments.

I'll copypaste the important bits.

Please, copy and paste this post as you please. I made the direct URLs of my comments a lot shorter to avoid the website breaking them by shortening them.

This is the comment which exposed the photoshoped photos: LUCI
This is the comment that expose Caluka as a fraud, as well as LUCI: LUCI

It is worth mentioning that after those two posts, GXP threatened me to file a harassment complaint, instead of replying to me honestly.

Update: the iWait app is nowhere to be found as expected, and [email protected] doesn't work, try it out yourself.
In other words, the Caluka Group doesn't have a website, nor a way to contact them.
They also changed the photo on the homepage since my posts, as many backers here can attest.
The previous photo, which exposed the black holes problem, can be found here: fe698ac341d49c3d52c5d8c1fdb01ce3large - HostingPics.net - Hébergement d'images gratuit

As soon as this comment get buried, please someone copy and paste it so new comers can see for themselves.

SCAM ALERT

I am Manoko, you can find my other comments on this page if you want the original discussions.

This is the comment which exposed the photoshoped photos: LUCI
-Update-: GXP removed the original photo, thus making it harder for me to prove anything...
The previous photo, which exposed the black holes problem, can be found here: fe698ac341d49c3d52c5d8c1fdb01ce3large - HostingPics.net - Hébergement d'images gratuit

This is the comment that expose Caluka as a fraud, as well as LUCI: LUCI

It is worth mentioning that after those two posts, GXP threatened me to file a harassment complaint, instead of replying to me honestly.

-Update-: the iWait app is nowhere to be found as expected, and [email protected] doesn't work, try it out yourself.
In other words, the Caluka Group doesn't have a website, nor a way to contact them.
They also changed the photo on the homepage since my posts, as many backers here can attest.

New add, thanks to "Luci Is A Scam", Wayne Kendall said that he doesn't have a facebook account and that Martine his wife is camera shy, well, lies again: LUCI
New add, they accuse me of threatening and harassment from Facebook, those are the two only messages I sent to his wife (because he deleted its facebook account): messagesfb - HostingPics.net - Hébergement d'images gratuit
Then they accused me of photoshoping that image, but hey, I made a video to shut them up: The messages on facebook - YouTube

If you wish to alert Kickstarter about this, please go to the homepage of Project LUCI, scroll down to the bottom and there should be a button to report them.

There is no rock solid evidence yet that it is a scam, but it's HIGHLY suspicious nevertheless.

He goes on a one-week vacation THREE DAYS before the end of his kickstarter? Who does that? Convenient, now he can claim he can't show us some REAL, non-photoshopped pictures.