Thread: How many DVers think LUCI will work?

I am very optimistic. The concept is just fine and in overall terms it seems to be superior to motion detection techs, although the wire can be a potential problem.

EILD, i think, will make LDing a global entertainment and technology will only develop further.

I am waiting to see any advancements.

I don't think LD should be for global entertainment ....it should be to achieve inner piece and enlightment ....I don't support this at all ....

Originally Posted by VagalTone

I am very optimistic. The concept is just fine and in overall terms it seems to be superior to motion detection techs, although the wire can be a potential problem.

EILD, i think, will make LDing a global entertainment and technology will only develop further.

I am waiting to see any advancements.

If someone can bring LDing with some degree of reliability to the general public with a device they'll make a bazillion.

Well - very interesting!
Basically - you have a simple EEG on your head and once it detects REM you get "This is a dream. Take control" over your headphones.
Sounds much more promising than these detectors, which lie in your bed and try to detect REM per your body movements.
And also better than trying to let you know, that you are dreaming per light-flashes over a mask - I´ve read, that you just dream of something flashing then.




With some electronics in addition to this headset - and maybe connection to a pc will be possible:



Looking forward to their results - they want to have it on the market by February - I´m sure we´ll get to know how it works for members on here not much after they release it.

To answer the question - yes - I think this could work.

The question, if you miss out on some personal and psychological gains from achieving lucidity on your own - the answer might be yes to a certain extent. Or maybe not!

Maybe such psychological development can also follow the fact that you are dreaming lucidly.
It doesn´t take away the necessity of working on dream-control, awareness and memory - if you want to have enjoyable lucid dreams - or even induce personal growth and insight by lucid dreaming and remember them in the first place - you will still have to work on these things with your mind only. Nobody and nothing can do that for you or take it away from you.

By the way and off topic - my husband has a very early commercial version of an EEG and eye-muscle movement detector, with which you can play simple computer games.
The thing with the eye-muscles is relatively easy to learn - but going by consciously manipulating EEG waves was beyond me - or lets say beyond my patience and interest - but he can do it.

It's actually an exciting possibility. And there's obvious high interest in the community, this and Remee end up well funded on kickstarter. This project seems much better than the Remee which doesn't actually contain a REM detector. Frankly, it's all about the dreams, exactly how one gets lucid is not important in comparison. Getting lucid a lot is important so that you can practice working on your memory and self-awareness. Anything that helps getting lucid reliably, especially in the beginning, would be incredibly valuable.

Originally Posted by Karloky

I don't think LD should be for global entertainment ....it should be to achieve inner piece and enlightment ....I don't support this at all ....

Lucid dreaming is a tool available to any person. People can find that they have the talent by accident so limiting it to achieve inner piece and enlightenment seems a little bit like you only want people to use it the way you use it. It can be used for so many things, and entertainment is one of them so I don't see why it would be a problem

Originally Posted by Karloky

I don't think LD should be for global entertainment ....it should be to achieve inner piece and enlightment ....I don't support this at all ....

That is a choice, not an imposition, just like the choice to care about dreams or not. I think lucid dreaming can be a spiritual practice, and it is for me in some way, but i don´t think most people are concerned only about that.

Lucid dreaming is for everybody and for whatever reason you want, and entertainment is just the most obvious one.

If you want to make a poll - click that option on the bottom - then type in the number of options you want to give.
Like - I think it works for most - it is welcome/is not - I think it only works for some - welcome/not - I think it will not work.
That would be 5 options.
You have to click post thread - no preview for this, like with threads and posts - be courageous! It will ask for the words for the option after that.
It will give you fields to write in - then click post again and you have your poll!
Btw..

Originally Posted by DynoTAP

How many people here think LUCI will work. The company has close to $200,000 already, so what do you think? Can the lucid dreaming community trust GXP Technologies? What's stopping them from making a working product?

Of course it will work. It will work just as well as the rest of the REM-sensing biofeedback machines that have been invented and marketed over the last 20 years or more. There is no new technology here, only new customers/investors unfamiliar what what already exists.

But it will only work in terms of detecting REM and sending you a signal. Recognizing the signal, and having the self-awareness in place to become lucid, are just as much up to you as they ever were. I just said this on another thread, but the real irony here is that if you have done enough mental prep to recognize a machine's prompt, you very likely will have done enough mental prep to become lucid on your own. Go figure.

So yeah, it'll work, but only if you've already done the real work.

Also, I would bet that anyone buying one of these machines will likely have at least one placebo-based LD just out of the excitement of trying it out... does that still count as working?

Don´t know - I will get there without - is my affirmation.
I was there before.



Edit: But my husband wasn´t - and he would like - and he is a nerd - and has unfortunately Sleep Apnoe which doesn´t exactly help.
Oh my bad - looking like science fiction in the house again - I can picture it ..lol
But he does meditate, and I don´t. Yet.

^^ By the power of suggestion alone, EILD machines work well on nerds, so something like Luci or a NovaDreamer might be a good for him... Sleep apnea will still be a problem, though..

That things looks uncomfortable.

Originally Posted by Araishu

Lucid dreaming is a tool available to any person. People can find that they have the talent by accident so limiting it to achieve inner piece and enlightenment seems a little bit like you only want people to use it the way you use it. It can be used for so many things, and entertainment is one of them so I don't see why it would be a problem

maybe available to everyone unfortunately .....like nuclear power and weapons are available to everyone but nor everybody use it for a good cause .......

Hm - I definitively don´t have access to nuclear power and my weapons would be kitchen knifes, if I needed something in my reach.
A blade-less world is quite a leap of the imagination as to what is practical.

What could be done with lucid dreaming, if "everyone" had access (isn´t that actually the natural state, which would be desirable?), that would cause suffering for individuals or groups of individuals?

^^ I know you did not ask me, but one thought leaped into mind when you asked the question:

If the natural state of nightly sleep included lucid dreaming for all, I think there would be an extreme risk of a great number of people allowing their LD worlds to become their lives' priority, and as they get lost in their own little universes, they would lose touch and emotional ties with their waking-life friends and family, and their lives would become very empty, very closed to the surprises of reality and social activity that encourage mental and spiritual growth.

This sort of thing -- this abandonment of "difficult" things like love, learning, and surprise (and their commensurate joy) already happens to many, many people in waking life without lucid dreaming; I think that if you opened the LD'ing door to those people -- and to the people struggling to keep their lives open to change, love and growth -- you might discover a substantial chunk of the population simply folding up into themselves and socially disappearing.

This is not a new argument, as it has been made on the onsets of (for instance) TV, video games, and the internet. Unfortunately, I believe the power of LD'ing is geometrically greater than the power of all three of those game-changers, combined -- so too would the risks to those who experience it without a good sense of self or mental and spiritual discipline.

I can't imagine anything else being a problem, and the benefits of "everyone" LD'ing might vastly outweigh the risks, but I had that thought and figured I'd share...

^^Absolutely Sageous, I wholeheartedly agree! The effort it takes and the things I have learned is benefiting me in waking life...things I may not have tried before...realizations I may not have come to for many more years perhaps(thank you, Sageous, for your help by the way!)...If it were too easy, it could be abused like drugs as a way to escape a "miserable life." What a strange juxtaposition(?), it can improve a less-than-ideal life if it comes with effort and self-growth or it can give the opposite effect when it is too easy if it is also abused.

Welcome StephL! Some of your previous posts have convinced me that you are going to be a great addition to the DV community as long as you keep coming back, which I hope you do.

I would like to see more statistics and information released personally.
The 2-week trials are not enough I feel. Too sketchy at best.

There is nothing about what time the lucid was or the duration. What REM period was it for example?

I guess people’s funds have been used to design the fancy logo and to get the trademark too.

Attachment 5794
(Image from the L-K home page)

The third-party amplifier shown is an Audio amplifier which uses the TDA7293 I.C. It is generally intended for Hi-Fi applications.

If you do a Google image search then you will find it is actually a TDA7293 Parallel 250W Mono Power Amp Board.

Here is the spec.

TDA7293 pdf, TDA7293 description, TDA7293 datasheets, TDA7293 view ::: ALLDATASHEET :::


I would like to see a proper block diagram for this project. What are the specs. CMR, etc?
Also for example, I do not see any description or mention of a ‘reference’ electrode?

Presumably the designer’s behind this project had challenges with artifacts, mains hum and electrical interference, inc. mobile phones, computers .etc. where they will have to use good quality shielding, screening, and low noise components.

Safety:
The proposed device shows a power adapter dc input (6-12 v?) to run the device. It would be safer to use batteries.

From the on site comments it seems that the headphones are one of the main issues, plus a USB connectivity option should there be enough funds.

^^ Sounds like you might not be one of the investors!

Good for the inventor/marketeer, I suppose, that the investors were not as mindful of where they were pledging their money...

Perhaps not this time. I think even the panel on 'Dragons Den' (UK TV programme) would have probably rejected it.

I would like an idea for this to work. The webpage seems more about claims and glossy content/design over actual substance to me. I was always told in my Physics lesson to 'show the workings out' and not just the answer. I feel this is an example.

It is early days, but the technology is out there.

Maybe the guy's behind the project can loan one out to one of the DV dreamguides here for an impartial evaluation/test.

Maybe do the 'first off' QA product test when the production line starts rolling.

Very interesting Highlander - always great to have access to insights from people knowing what they are looking at - the technical background - and also convey a sense of how to look at the project from it´s appearance-aspect - and deduct like you did.

It makes very much sense what you have to say - and I agree - a great idea to have a DV quality testing.
Is this possible, though - with this site not allowing "competition" in which form it might be defined - not sure there - not allowing direct links?

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ I know you did not ask me, but one thought leaped into mind when you asked the question:

If the natural state of nightly sleep included lucid dreaming for all, I think there would be an extreme risk of a great number of people allowing their LD worlds to become their lives' priority, and as they get lost in their own little universes, they would lose touch and emotional ties with their waking-life friends and family, and their lives would become very empty, very closed to the surprises of reality and social activity that encourage mental and spiritual growth.

This sort of thing -- this abandonment of "difficult" things like love, learning, and surprise (and their commensurate joy) already happens to many, many people in waking life without lucid dreaming; I think that if you opened the LD'ing door to those people -- and to the people struggling to keep their lives open to change, love and growth -- you might discover a substantial chunk of the population simply folding up into themselves and socially disappearing.

This is not a new argument, as it has been made on the onsets of (for instance) TV, video games, and the internet. Unfortunately, I believe the power of LD'ing is geometrically greater than the power of all three of those game-changers, combined -- so too would the risks to those who experience it without a good sense of self or mental and spiritual discipline.

I can't imagine anything else being a problem, and the benefits of "everyone" LD'ing might vastly outweigh the risks, but I had that thought and figured I'd share...

Oh - in a sense I did ask you - and I have been thinking about it before myself, actually - just forgot in this context, because I sensed a completely different line of attack in Karloky´s posts.

Yeah - why is it, that evolution does not make it easy to reach this state?
Probably because of the reasons you described above - that was basically what I came up with as well.
I have to take my above statement back - or at least put it in very theoretical terms of a mankind farther along the line of development overall - if such a state of affairs would be possible is a completely different question again.

Originally Posted by fogelbise

^^Absolutely Sageous, I wholeheartedly agree! The effort it takes and the things I have learned is benefiting me in waking life...things I may not have tried before...realizations I may not have come to for many more years perhaps(thank you, Sageous, for your help by the way!)...If it were too easy, it could be abused like drugs as a way to escape a "miserable life." What a strange juxtaposition(?), it can improve a less-than-ideal life if it comes with effort and self-growth or it can give the opposite effect when it is too easy if it is also abused.

Welcome StephL! Some of your previous posts have convinced me that you are going to be a great addition to the DV community as long as you keep coming back, which I hope you do.

Thank you for your kind words fogelbise!
This place has numerous fantastic people - and a quite unique openness - I feel, here people of very different mindsets are able to positively communicate and contribute to each other´s understanding. At the very least this is attempted time and again.
I am sure, I´ll keep coming back!

Cool.gif

It would of course be great if something like this could work. That hope is probably what fuels the investors. I myself (relative LD newbie, but not a novice) feel like I just need the smallest of nudges to become lucid, I've only had a handful of LDs so far and certainly am interested in anything that can boost that frequency.

A 50% (about one every two days) LD for two weeks success rate is a remarkable ("unheard of"?) frequency for LD novices. It does bring into question the reliability of the information.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ I know you did not ask me, but one thought leaped into mind when you asked the question:

If the natural state of nightly sleep included lucid dreaming for all, I think there would be an extreme risk of a great number of people allowing their LD worlds to become their lives' priority, and as they get lost in their own little universes, they would lose touch and emotional ties with their waking-life friends and family, and their lives would become very empty, very closed to the surprises of reality and social activity that encourage mental and spiritual growth.

This sort of thing -- this abandonment of "difficult" things like love, learning, and surprise (and their commensurate joy) already happens to many, many people in waking life without lucid dreaming; I think that if you opened the LD'ing door to those people -- and to the people struggling to keep their lives open to change, love and growth -- you might discover a substantial chunk of the population simply folding up into themselves and socially disappearing.

This is not a new argument, as it has been made on the onsets of (for instance) TV, video games, and the internet. Unfortunately, I believe the power of LD'ing is geometrically greater than the power of all three of those game-changers, combined -- so too would the risks to those who experience it without a good sense of self or mental and spiritual discipline.

I can't imagine anything else being a problem, and the benefits of "everyone" LD'ing might vastly outweigh the risks, but I had that thought and figured I'd share...

Although that is a very good point, I don't see what makes those of us who have experienced it by chance and looked it up any different from the general public. The kind of people who are willing to make Lucid Dreaming their only priority in life are most likely already occupied by things like video games and the sort. Lucid dreaming does not cause people to lack feelings of responsibility in real life, it simply gives those who already lack those feelings another medium to escape through.

Lucid dreaming is unimaginably exciting the first few times you achieve it and it's often all you can think about for a few days after. However, after a while it becomes a tool open for use for whatever you want and the obsession is dropped. It becomes a part of your reality rather than becoming your reality. At least, that's what I think anyway.

Originally Posted by StephL

Yeah - why is it, that evolution does not make it easy to reach this state?
Probably because of the reasons you described above - that was basically what I came up with as well.

Excellent question. Here's my totally arguable take:

I think the simple answer to this is that LD'ing is a fundamentally unnatural event. It isn't that evolution doesn't allow easy LD'ing as much as it is the case that there is simply no "natural" inclusion of self-awareness in the mechanisms of sleep and dreams. At all.

To expand this a bit, I'm not even sure that self-awareness was meant to exist in waking-life either. Sentience may just be an accident of natural evolution (or God's plan, depending on your perspective) that came about as a side-effect of the amazing complexity of our brains. In other words, our brains became so powerful we became self-aware -- just like Skynet (only we're taking a skosh more time to destroy the planet than the machines did in Terminator ). This is why we still have a lot of trouble realizing we exist during waking-life, much less the dream state.

Come to think of it, we might not have ever been meant to dream at all, so it makes sense that dreaming is normally a quickly-forgotten jumble of generally meaningless events* (at least until we wake up and start interpreting them) that occurs not for some evolutionary purpose but simply because that supercomputer in our skulls keeps whirring away long after sleep has ensued. Indeed, about the only thing nature seems to have done is create barriers to your waking-life self when sleeping, like denying access to memory, to keep this accidental thing called sentience out of the "natural" process of sleep.

Because of all this, bringing our self-awareness into dreams, or LD'ing, is a very unnatural process. But, just as bringing self-awareness into waking life has become routine for many, there is no reason LD'ing can't eventually be routine as well... we just have to get nature accustomed to the concept. Or, to be on topic, we just need to trick nature with machines or drugs. So we might ultimately counter natural evolution with an evolutionary step of our own making; one of mind -- our own intellectual evolution might pick up where nature left off (or screwed up).

This unnatural condition is not necessarily a bad thing though: Since LD'ing is not a tool created by nature, it might possibly be able to do more than nature allowed (or never programmed at all, as it were) to effect our dreams, explore our unconscious, and perhaps tweak that supercomputer to do even more amazing things.

tl;dr: We are not naturally meant to lucid dream, so our effort to do so is an uphill battle against nature (or God's plan) itself. Which kind of sucks, but also might point to LD'ing as a powerful tool for growth of the same scope that self-awareness i waking-life is.


* Quick note about meaning, before folks chime in to correct me: Yes, given that that same sentience is sourced in the unconscious, there is an excellent chance that some of the stuff popping up in dreams are relevant to your life and your mind's current unconscious concerns swimming around in the otherwise random projections of dreams...but this too is an accident of nature, I think, not its intention. By extension: If they exist, things like dream-sharing, AP, etc, are also either accidents or rather very carefully produced events of self-awareness holding no place in nature at all (which again is not a bad thing, just another hurdle).

Originally Posted by Araishu

Although that is a very good point, I don't see what makes those of us who have experienced it by chance and looked it up any different from the general public. The kind of people who are willing to make Lucid Dreaming their only priority in life are most likely already occupied by things like video games and the sort. Lucid dreaming does not cause people to lack feelings of responsibility in real life, it simply gives those who already lack those feelings another medium to escape through.

Lucid dreaming is unimaginably exciting the first few times you achieve it and it's often all you can think about for a few days after. However, after a while it becomes a tool open for use for whatever you want and the obsession is dropped. It becomes a part of your reality rather than becoming your reality. At least, that's what I think anyway.

All true. But keep in mind that folks (like me as well) who stumble upon LD'ing are likely already intellectually prepared on some level to cope with and work with the novelty and escapism potentials of lucidity.

Because we were able to draw the conclusion that "this is a dream" based on our own existent self-awareness and mental wherewithal, we were able to temper our reaction and make thoughtful decisions about working to learn more, explore more, or walk away, without much negative effect on our waking lives. Not everyone is equipped to do that, and if LD'ing suddenly becomes available to all without any mental or work prerequisites, there likely will be a large group of people who could be swept up by the activity... in an even more effective manner than what happened with TV, the internet, and video games.

Of course I could be wrong...