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    Thread: DreamNET, a milestone in lucid dreaming history?

    1. #1
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      Exclamation DreamNET, a milestone in lucid dreaming history?

      This thread is not about advertising the DreamNET headband, but about discussing the possibilities that it might open to lucid dreaming research.
      I started a thread http://www.dreamviews.com/lucid-aids...-dreamnet.html in Lucid Aids when I thought it was yet another NovaDreamer rip off, and I believe many people did not even check the thread because of that. But then I learned it has (almost) nothing to do with lucid induction, but it is rather more like having a personal, comfortable sleep lab at home, and also that one will be able to share the data gathered with the creators for large scale study of lucidity and dreams.
      A couple of articles discussing it:
      DreamNet: The programmable lucid dreaming headband
      Interview with Bill Murphy, Creator of DreamNET

      Imagine hundreds or thousands of lucid dreamers around the world gathering EEG data on their dreams for further study. Where could all this take us? Will this data gathering lead to things like understanding better how we get lucid or what lucidity is? Will it lead to development of better induction devices or make communication from the dream world possible? What do you think?
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      Do they talk about "our" IAmCoder?
      They must be - sooo - come along and tell us more!!

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      Quote Originally Posted by StephL View Post
      Do they talk about "our" IAmCoder?
      They must be - sooo - come along and tell us more!!
      Yes, he is working at the project. Actually at the first thread we even discuss communication from the dream world, and he shows a video about morse code from a headband while awake. Have a look!
      Last edited by dreambh; 01-22-2014 at 05:30 PM.

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      wow this looks really cool, i have been looking for some good sleep lab stuff for a project i plan to put together. i am wondering, this headband measures brain waves and records them for later study, i wonder if its possible to use this along with a LD mask for a sort of neurofeedback effect. like the headband detects the difference between lucid and non lucid states and when your not lucid it will send a signal like flashing lights or a sound to keep you lucid instead of relying on rapid eye movement to signal that your dreaming. i hope i am making sense, basically what i wonder is if we will ever be able to actively use neurofeedback to lucid dream? i know thats not what this headband is for of course but i think it could lead up to it someday perhaps.
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      From the interview:

      However, we also see that most claim to induce lucidity and use external cues to do so. Lights and sounds that make their way into the dream environment can be interpreted in a number ways, and the possibility of disturbing a sleeper is more likely than inducing a lucid dream.


      We know that statement runs contrary to the claims of some but we focused on detecting lucidity rather than claim to induce it. DreamNET has been designed by and for lucid dreamers. Our wish is to provide a sensible means of gathering and sharing sleep research data.

      This could lead to discovering correlations between dreams and environmental factors such as the amount of daylight a person is exposed to each season, diet, induction methods and more that could influence the ability to achieve lucidity.
      Does that mean, there is no feature included, which can give a signal of some sort at all?
      Being disturbed out of a dream could be useful for DEILDing..

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      Actually the project is very open, people will be able to develop apps for smartphones that do the light and sound thing, that is just one of the many possibilities of this project, though as Steph pointed by quoting the interview, it is not the main one.
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      The one and only!

      There is a feature to detect lucidity based on the research conducted at the Neurological Clinic Sleep Laboratory based at the Frankfurt University in Germany. In the paper published in 2009, researchers shared that lucid dreamers generate activity in the gamma band, peaking around 40Hz. And a feature that can detect eye movements to trigger audio tracks with a subtle start so as not to disrupt the dream state right away, but that progressively intensify so they can't be missed.

      I believe that Bill's campaign was inspired by Tom's mod at LSDBase: Modifying an EEG headset for lucid dreaming.

      I made a new video of the Morse Code blinking using the ThinkGear EEG plugin that DreamNet will use: MindWave as a Keyboard. But that is more of a side-project... there are many that show audio tracks being triggered by eye movements.
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      Quote Originally Posted by IAmCoder View Post
      There is a feature to detect lucidity based on the research conducted at the Neurological Clinic Sleep Laboratory based at the Frankfurt University in Germany. In the paper published in 2009, researchers shared that lucid dreamers generate activity in the gamma band, peaking around 40Hz. And a feature that can detect eye movements to trigger audio tracks with a subtle start so as not to disrupt the dream state right away, but that progressively intensify so they can't be missed.
      I guess the first feature could be used to wake the dreamer up when they lose lucidity, so that memories of the ld are preserved, and also to try morse code (or other types of) communication while the dreamer is lucid.
      And the second one could be used to wake the dreamer up after every dream (lucid or not) for improved dream recall, and obviously for lucid dreaming induction: EILD with sound and/or lights, and also for DEILD.
      Actually one could have one or more apps with different functions and enable some of them depending on that nights' goals.
      Of course, all this is on top of data gathering, which would be very useful in lucid dreaming research, or even for personal research on sleep cycles and other stuff.

      Am I "dreaming" in the right direction, IAmCoder?
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      Interesting, but it remains to be seen whether or not this new headband is a true "breakthrough."

      It is being promoted as a dream induction device.

      "Taking control of the dream environment is exhilarating, and many people choose to experience weightlessness and self guided flight along with other physically impossible but enjoyable tasks. For others, exploring fantastic buildings and beautiful landscapes, all of their own creation, becomes possible. But for some, the ability to interact with dream characters is an irresistible reward. For the best opportunity at remembering your dreams, it is necessary for most people to be gently awoken at the right moment and verbally record or journal the experience. "

      From what I've read, detecting REM states is not an easy path to lucidity, and there is no substitute for a personal understanding of what it means to be dreaming, and the experience one gains along the way to gaining that understanding.
      Last edited by Nailler; 01-24-2014 at 10:12 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Nailler View Post
      Interesting, but it remains to be seen whether or not this new headband is a true "breakthrough."

      It is being promoted as a dream induction device.

      "Taking control of the dream environment is exhilarating, and many people choose to experience weightlessness and self guided flight along with other physically impossible but enjoyable tasks. For others, exploring fantastic buildings and beautiful landscapes, all of their own creation, becomes possible. But for some, the ability to interact with dream characters is an irresistible reward. For the best opportunity at remembering your dreams, it is necessary for most people to be gently awoken at the right moment and verbally record or journal the experience. "

      From what I've read, detecting REM states is not an easy path to lucidity, and there is no substitute for a personal understanding of what it means to be dreaming, and the experience one gains along the way to gaining that understanding.
      Well, I do think Bill Murphy should be more clear about what this headband is.
      You are correctly quoting from the Kickstarter page, but there he is not talking about induction, rather about the importance of recall. Look what they say a bit further:

      "Our colleagues in the lucid dreaming community have launched a global study to investigate if it's possible for dreaming individuals to exchange coded information. Users of DreamNET are invited to anonymously share their findings which will be posted publicly so others can review and contribute to the study. Open forums allows us to leverage the different approaches that computer scientist, statistic analyst, and psychologist each take to understand the potential of dreams."

      And check this from the interview I linked at the OP:

      "We saw a growing number of dream mask and headband technologies on Kickstarter in 2013. Can you tell us where the market lies today and where DreamNET fits into this?
      There have been a number of items that appealed to the fascination of dreams and popular movies certainly fueled this trend.
      However, we also see that most claim to induce lucidity and use external cues to do so. Lights and sounds that make their way into the dream environment can be interpreted in a number ways, and the possibility of disturbing a sleeper is more likely than inducing a lucid dream.
      We know that statement runs contrary to the claims of some but we focused on detecting lucidity rather than claim to induce it. DreamNET has been designed by and for lucid dreamers. Our wish is to provide a sensible means of gathering and sharing sleep research data.
      This could lead to discovering correlations between dreams and environmental factors such as the amount of daylight a person is exposed to each season, diet, induction methods and more that could influence the ability to achieve lucidity."


      By what I've read my opinion is B. Murphy wants to develop an affordable dreaming research tool (he speaks about this at the KS page and the interview), but he is maybe talking about the possibility of lucid induction in order to get more backers?
      The truth is DreamNET could be used for lucid induction even if it is not its main purpose, and it's REM detecting might be one of the most accurate out there, anyways.
      Last edited by dreambh; 01-24-2014 at 10:51 PM. Reason: Added last sentence
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