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    Thread: 2nd Galantamine experience

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      2nd Galantamine experience

      I had a week off after my first go with Galantamine & Choline, and tried again last night. This time slept for longer before taking it. I did have 2 brief lucids, but I think the problem I have is I only become lucid just as I am waking up, so they only last a few seconds. I did the technique as described by Yuschak, starting on my back for about 20 minutes, then onto my side and wait for the dream, but nothing happened. I then fell asleep and woke to a first brief DEILD about 2 hours later. I then tried to sleep again, and managed to have DILD where I realised I was looking at the bed in my dream, like an FA, but within a few seconds the scene faded and I woke. Any ideas what I do about this? Although the G is making me have lucids, they are still really short as I wake like natural ones I have!

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      My best advice is to stay focused on your dreaming skills. All your practices to build better dreaming will eventually conquer those issues. Meditating, thinking about dreaming throughout the day. It's hard to rack up a lot of lucid dreams under your belt and not improve in terms of length and control.

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      Yuschak claims that he had only about two dozen low to medium lucidity LDs on his non-supplement practice of several years. So without supplements, he was quite a bit less successful than a lot of members here on DV. Heck, I myself at this writing have had 19 LDs after 5 months of practice, with generally pretty good to great dream recall all during my practice.

      Yet with the supplements Yuschak supposedly has had consistent, mind-blowing high-level LDs. The contrast between these two levels of LD experience is really high, and this I think tends to set the expectation that galantamine + choline can instantly create mind-blowing experiences. Since I know I can get lucid and generally do with decent frequency (a handful per month on average), I thought I was in for a absolutely extraordinary experience, thus the let down when I get nothing after 3 attempts, not even a vivid non-lucid.

      So maybe it's the dosage I'm still trying to figure out (Yuschak certainly did experiment a lot), maybe it's the timing, or maybe the supplements don't work for everybody, even people more than newbies at LDing.

      I'm hoping it's just the dosage/timing .
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      You'll have to shoot me. I'd say 19 LDs in 5 months is a very good result. That's about one lucid dream a week. I understand many of us would like to take up residence in our own personal holodeck, but once a week is far from shabby. Especially to be less than a year into your total lucid dreaming career.

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      Well yes I'm not displeased with my results so far, but I am indeed shooting for the "personal holo deck" so I have set high goals. But still, I have not noticed any difference in nighttime experience with the supplements, certainly not like what Yuschak describes. Dosage experiments to continue...
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      Do you meditate brother?

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      Basically no. I set intention before bed and during the day for dream recall, but concentrated meditation I do not do. Adding it probably would be good, I do want to work on dream yoga as well.
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      “No amount of security is worth the suffering of a mediocre life chained to a routine that has killed your dreams.”
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      My personal 2 cents worth:

      I have no experience with Galantamine, but I do have some with Huperzine A, which - supposedly - has the same biochemical function. I also have three attempts using Choline bitartrate.

      So far it seems to me, that these supplements, either on their own or in combination, do not guarantee lucidity, although they raise the probability thereof.

      The real problem, for me at least, is the shallow sleep, which my body experiences at night.

      Ideally you want to attain the "mind awake - body asleep" state. But my natural tendency goes toward the "mind blissfully asleep - body tossing and turning".

      I experienced a night on Phenibut (which is a rather hardcore sedater of the nervous system), and that knocked my body out. The result was a very robust lucid dream in the first half of the night! That has never happened to me before, as all my lucids tend to happen very late in the night - just as Goldenspark experiences.

      If the Galantamine/Choline combination does not work for you, then I would not rush to blame these supplements; the cause may be too shallow sleep, as far as the body is concerned (i.e. the periferal nervous system).

      Theoretically, GABA as a supplement might help with this problem, as it dulls the periferal nervous system down but - allegedly - does not get into the central nervous system. I have no experience with GABA.
      Last edited by Voldmer; 02-04-2014 at 10:10 AM.
      So ... is this the real universe, or is it just a preliminary study?

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      Thanks for the info, Voldmer. I not whining about not getting lucid -- I understand it's not guaranteed. I *am* complaining a bit though that I didn't notice *any* difference in dreaming. These substances are supposed to (?) yield at least very vivid dreams, as I understand, and it is the job of the practitioner to leverage this increased vividness into lucidity. But in my experience, my nights with galantamine+choline were absolutely no different in any way than those nights without it.
      FryingMan's Unified Theory of Lucid Dreaming: Pay Attention, Reflect, Recall -- Both Day and Night[link]
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      “No amount of security is worth the suffering of a mediocre life chained to a routine that has killed your dreams.”
      "...develop stability in awareness and your dreams will change in extraordinary ways" -- TYoDaS

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      If it's any consolation; I recently attempted a lucid dream night, utilising Huperzine A, Choline bitartrate, Mucuna Pruriens and green tea. I also had Phenibut in my system from having taken it at daybreak that day.

      Result: the Phenibut totally overpowered everything, and I sleept like a proverbial log. No conciousness of any kind.

      Moreover, I suppose that being somewhat sleep deprived, when going to bed, will severely reduce the probability of dreaming - and lucidity. There are many factors involved.
      So ... is this the real universe, or is it just a preliminary study?

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      Quote Originally Posted by Voldmer View Post
      If it's any consolation; I recently attempted a lucid dream night, utilising Huperzine A, Choline bitartrate, Mucuna Pruriens and green tea. I also had Phenibut in my system from having taken it at daybreak that day.

      Result: the Phenibut totally overpowered everything, and I sleept like a proverbial log. No conciousness of any kind.

      Moreover, I suppose that being somewhat sleep deprived, when going to bed, will severely reduce the probability of dreaming - and lucidity. There are many factors involved.
      Entirely agreed. At least one of the attempts, I waited until I had a very nice night of dream recall, and then tried on the following night -- nothing.

      Timing is very definitely a big part of LD practice.
      FryingMan's Unified Theory of Lucid Dreaming: Pay Attention, Reflect, Recall -- Both Day and Night[link]
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      It was interesting that Yuschak's method involved just waiting for the LD to form, but that he said it might take an hour. I have had tantalising glimpses of that, both natural and induced by supplement. In one occasion I was trying to WILD during a daytime nap and managed to form a perfect dream scene, fully lucid, but it was like on a TV screen in the centre of my field of view. As I watched it faded, but it was a bit of a eureka moment for me because it was outside the normal nighttime LD experience. It seemed to be a very delicate balance of not concentrating ttoo hard, but also staying engaged enough not to fall asleep. My next attempt with supplements I think I'll try a concentrated WBTB / WILD and try not to go to sleep (!).

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      There are threads that talk about taking melatonin and theanine before bed as being a great help, and also when in combination with galantamine/choline taken after waking up later. Maybe those taken before bed would help your efforts. The melatonin is supposed to suppress REM for awhile, which can give a rebound effect. I took both last night on their own, and while my dreams weren't highly improved, they were still abundant, with a few very intricate moments.

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      Yes the REM suppression properties of melatonin, 5HTP, and L-Theanine are supposed to aid in getting the really amazing LDs from the other supplements. Good point. I'm trying to follow his basic advice which is to find the effective primary trigger (galantamine + choline bitartrate) before moving on to adding other supplements. But adding those in is part of the experimental matrix, no doubt! My sleep is messed up right now due to jet lag so it will be a few weeks probably before I try again.
      FryingMan's Unified Theory of Lucid Dreaming: Pay Attention, Reflect, Recall -- Both Day and Night[link]
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      "...develop stability in awareness and your dreams will change in extraordinary ways" -- TYoDaS

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      Quote Originally Posted by Goldenspark View Post
      It was interesting that Yuschak's method involved just waiting for the LD to form, but that he said it might take an hour.
      What I take from this recommendation of his is that Yuschak has a preference for the WILD technique. I'm not a WILDer, but a DILDer mostly at this point, so after taking the supplements I try right away to focus on getting immediately back to sleep.
      FryingMan's Unified Theory of Lucid Dreaming: Pay Attention, Reflect, Recall -- Both Day and Night[link]
      FryingMan's Dream Recall Tips -- Awesome Links
      “No amount of security is worth the suffering of a mediocre life chained to a routine that has killed your dreams.”
      "...develop stability in awareness and your dreams will change in extraordinary ways" -- TYoDaS

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      Hey FryingMan, I've had a few more attempts now, and am finding that I too don't seem to be able to WILD, and although the Galantamine is definitely having a big impact on the length and vividness of my dreams, I am struggling to get lucid. I think what I am seeing is that I still need to perfect the traditional techniques to get lucid and grounded in the dream, even if the G is making that a bit easier perhaps?
      I wonder as well if perhaps in have become a little de-sensitised to the supplement, even though I am taking time off.

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      Thanks for the update Goldenspark. I've had a couple of good sleep and dreaming nights the last 2 nights without supplements, including a short low-lucidity DILD (where I did lucid flying for the first time, yay) 2 nights ago, a long vivid almost lucid late morning dream, and a real face-palm this morning where I was standing appreciating the view of nature in a backyard thinking about how the light body feeling I was having could mean I might fly in a dream. Wow it felt so real. I woke thinking "THAT was a DREAM!?"... very close.

      I'm keeping a baggie of dream-capsules (2 4mg galantamind, 1 300mg gpc, 1 300mg choline bartartrate) by the bed in case I wake up around the 4th hour and feel groggy enough to get right back to sleep. I won't attempt WILD since I have yet to succeed there, I'll just hope for DILDs or at least long vivid non-lucids.
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      "...develop stability in awareness and your dreams will change in extraordinary ways" -- TYoDaS

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      Congrats on the lucids there, especially the flying! I used to fly hang gliders and now that I've stopped I do have lots of vivid flying dreams, usually with arms outstretched but occasionally with "hardware" above me!

      I'm now trying a concerted effort to do more ADA type exercises during the day. I used to just do RCs, but I understand now how it's the "stop and think" approach that is more important to get ingrained. The RC just confirms the dream. That's the bit I am struggling with I think.
      The key is how to do the stop and think regularly enough that it spills over into a dream event.
      The vivid last night was quite long and very life-like, but also not too crazy.
      Maybe that's another problem that I have, in that I rarely have really weird dreams. There might be slightly implausible plot themes, but it's not two-headed people type stuff.
      I do occasionally get that feeling in a vivid dream of "hey, that doesn't look quite right", but it's quite rare.

      Last night I was having to enter some sort of password into a hand held terminal device, and the screen looked all wrong and it didn't work. I got that feeling, but only "why isn't it working for me?". I handed it to a DC who managed to make it work perfectly.

      Maybe I need to try incubating a really weird crazy event to make it more obvious. I might try that as well.

      I'm also sure that my supplement enhanced lucids so far (except for a couple) are nowhere near as clear as the few DILDs I have had.

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      My dreams since I started LD training have for the most part been fairly wild and wacky, but recently they've been much more tame, just hanging out with people and walking around, I certainly prefer the wacky ones. Yes I recommend the ADA/RC "continuous RC" approach. Full ADA for me is not interesting, I don't have the time/attention to do that, but to keep just a background awareness on a single specific thing (for me it's location) is much more doable although still a challenge to keep the awareness there all day long. I can hold it now for hours at a time mostly as long as I'm not concentrating, like when at work.
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      Following your idea about "continuous RC", I decided to concentrate on the gravity effect, because I notice that in all my dreams I have no feeling of standing or weight on my feet. So I'll try and do that over the coming days. I'm also trying to incubate the idea of rubbing my hands together as soon as I get lucid to stabilise. That bit worked a couple of times last night, except I was obviously just starting to wake as I became lucid (again!), as I always seem to at the moment. The first time it seemed to be working for just a second or two before I woke. Hopefully the gravity thing will help me get lucid at the start of a dream cycle, rather than just at the end as I wake!

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      Following your idea about "continuous RC", I decided to concentrate on the gravity effect, because I notice that in all my dreams I have no feeling of standing or weight on my feet. So I'll try and do that over the coming days. I'm also trying to incubate the idea of rubbing my hands together as soon as I get lucid to stabilise. That bit worked a couple of times last night, except I was obviously just starting to wake as I became lucid (again!), as I always seem to at the moment. The first time it seemed to be working for just a second or two before I woke. Hopefully the gravity thing will help me get lucid at the start of a dream cycle, rather than just at the end as I wake!

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      Yes the continuous RC goal is to be lucid all night every night. Don't give up after a few days -- dedicate yourself to give it at least several months, it takes a while to get the hang of keeping a pearl of your awareness on it all the time, and then it takes time to seep into your dreams. It takes that sort of commitment to excel at LDing. If you already actually notice gravity/weight difference in dreams (as opposed to realizing it later after you've woken up) then gravity is an extremely good choice. I'm not the proper coach for it though, you should PM Hukif as he's the inventor of that approach and extremely experienced.

      Another great night last night for me -- another fairly early (for me, about 6 hrs) lucid/DILD (this one through noticing something dream-like about my location, just what I'm training for, woohoo!), and a near DILD where I told myself "too bad this is not enough to get me lucid!" DOH!

      So with 3 fairly great dreaming nights in a row I think I'm ready to try my supplement cocktail in hopes of epic long stable super vivid and very self-aware LDs., maybe tonight, we'll see how I feel and when I get to bed.
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      Sounds like you're doing great!
      I only once realised during the dream about gravity - in fact it was a rare DILD for me, where I actually noticed that I was sort of gliding along, and I thought "hey, I'm moving along but not walking with my legs!", then I became lucid and floated up into the air, but then woke!

      Do you think it is OK just to concentrate on ONLY the gravity effect for continuous RC, or should it be several different pointers?
      I can see that keeping up total ADA is going to be really tough, but to keep stopping and thinking about the feeling of weight on my feet and not being all floaty will be a lot easier.

      I'll just have to see how it goes. I am getting more relaxed about "enjoying the journey", rather than stressing about not achieving, which I know is another plus!

      Thanks for the help.

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      Just gravity is enough. Be mindful of the feeling of the weight of your body all through the day, standing, sitting, etc. The simpler and more one-dimensional the target of attention/awareness/mindfulness is, the easier it is to maintain. I'm doing location which is multi-dimensional which makes it a bit harder I think. Full ADA is IMO not required, and actually sort of misguided. I'm also doing gravity now when just standing somewhere. I've explicitly noticed gravity/weight fully consciously twice now in dreams. I may switch to it entirely but I've spent so much time on location so far I don't want to give it up.
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      “No amount of security is worth the suffering of a mediocre life chained to a routine that has killed your dreams.”
      "...develop stability in awareness and your dreams will change in extraordinary ways" -- TYoDaS

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      Thanks for the tips. I'll give it a go. The main problem I find is when busy at work I can get to the end of the day and realise I haven't once stopped to think about continuous RC! I just get that zombie feeling!

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