Why do supplements boost dreaming recall, vividness, lucidity? Is it just WBTB in the end?

I've started wondering just what it is in all the myriad supplements that actually leads to increased recall, vividness, and lucidity. There is the whole science of neurotransmitters, etc around galantamine, for example. But I've noticed a very clear pattern emerge over my supplement experiences of of the last month: almost anything that "works" (resulted in improved recall/vividness or lucidity) tends to leave me alert/wake for long periods in the night. Increased brain activity is most certainly the reason for this I presume. Is increased brain activity the cause of the recall/vividness, then? And supplements just a path to this wakefulness/brain stimulation? If increased brain activity (lighter sleep?) is the actual recall/vividness enhancer, why not just WBTB? I find that the supplements leave me wakeful, why not just do the wakefulness part without the supplements? In fact I'm really starting to believe that middle of the night wakefulness is all it takes to result in great recall and vivid dreams.

One theory I'm developing is that all dreams are experienced vividly. Many times I will have the feeling that a dream was long and detailed and vivid, but I don't have a vivid memory of the dream itself. This has happened time and time again, and is a pattern I have noticed over the months. Maybe some supplements suppress the natural dream amnesia that causes us to forget dreams? So our naturally vividly experienced dream translates into the actual recall of that dream. That's one likely explanation other than just promoting lighter sleep.

In my first 3-4 months of LD practice I had a great many long, vivid dreams. During this time I was very wakeful during the night, waking 2-4 times almost every single night to recall and record dreams. I took no supplements during this time at all. I also had increasing lucidity frequency.

In the last 4-5 months of LD practice, my self-awareness has been higher due to daytime practice, but my dry spells much longer and vivid/long dream recall much less frequent than in the beginning. During this time I have been wakeful during the middle of the night much less frequently, and have been sleeping more deeply. I have let up on the intention to wake after every dream (because I was feeling a bit tired of being awake in the middle of the night). I think this is no coincidence.

So looking back at the last 3/4 of a year, more night-time wakefulness correlated with longer, more vivid dreams, and less night-time wakefulness correlated with much fewer vivid/long dreams. On those occasions where I took supplements hoping to boost recall where some effect was noticeable (most of the time I found no effect), there *always* was an increase in wakefulness, usually for several hours, before falling asleep again into long/vivid/lucid dreams.

I've frankly not put much effort into WBTB due to my slow-to-sleep issues....but maybe WBTB and yes, being awake during the night, even briefly in between waking from dreams, is really the key to the recall/vividness and lucidity? And maintaining that excitement to wake up from dreams and recall them.

Even though WBTB involves waking, it won't necessarily have the same effect on your state of mind as a supplement might. Just waking up and then going back to sleep isn't going to have the same lasting effects and alterations of body chemistry (as something like a supplement or stimulant) that might lead you to continued wakefulness as you enter the dreaming state. I'm interested to know more specifically which supplements you are talking about other than the one you mentioned (galantamine), so I might be able to give you a more specific response and hopefully provide some insight into how these supplements may directly or indirectly affect dream recall.

I think it's difficult to say with any certainty exactly what it is that results in greater dream recall or lucidity, and instead think of it as a fluid combination of circumstances, some known contributing factors (like wakefulness, awareness, etc)...combined with sheer chance.

I think the whole picture is rather complicated. First, I don't think that "awake" always means the same thing; there are degrees of being awake. Some herbs/supplements probably raise the level of "awakeness" or "awareness", whether one is awake or asleep. This should be beneficial for lucid dreaming, unless it prevents sleep altogether.

Secondly, other herbs help put the physical body into a more tranquil state, whereby it becomes easier to focus on whatever goes on in the mind. E.g. some herbs are traditionally encouraged prior to meditation, and they probably also have beneficial aspects in lucid dreaming.

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Originally Posted by Voldmer

Some herbs/supplements probably raise the level of "awakeness" or "awareness", whether one is awake or asleep. This should be beneficial for lucid dreaming, unless it prevents sleep altogether.

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This is absolutely true and is actually how I first discovered lucid dreaming and then eventually used it as a means to induce lucid dreams (until the substance was made illegal in the US). My freshman year of college I was taking a really popular diet supplement that had ephedra and caffeine in it. I would wake up in the morning, take the pills, go to class from 9-11 am and then return to my dorm for a nap before my next class a few hours later. It was during those naps that I first started having lucid dreams, and I noticed that on the days when I didn't take the diet pill I was unlikely to have any LDs. But the stimulant effects after awhile also made it hard to fall asleep sometimes. Eventually I had the timing down so perfect that I would take the pill and then immediately nap, and by the time it kicked in about 30 minutes later I was already dreaming and would become lucid right away. I was then able to maintain a very low state of wakefulness and slip in and out of LDs for a few hours. Obviously this only worked on days I had that sort of free time or felt like skipping class (which I'm ashamed to say happened way too often). I'm pretty sure it was the ephedra that made it so effective but the caffeine may have had a role as well. Sadly as I said, ephedra was banned in the US not too long after (due to heart problems) so I wasn't able to continue experimenting with it.

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Originally Posted by Voldmer

Secondly, other herbs help put the physical body into a more tranquil state, whereby it becomes easier to focus on whatever goes on in the mind. E.g. some herbs are traditionally encouraged prior to meditation, and they probably also have beneficial aspects in lucid dreaming.

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That tranquility plus focus is key if you want to LD successfully, specifically where WILDs and WBTBs are concerned. However I just want to make the distinction that tranquility is good...but tranquilizers or sedatives are bad for LDs because they will make you sleep more deeply where you are less likely to have any recall or awareness. A lot of vitamins/supplements also have more indirect effects such as providing your body with more amino acids and other nutrients that may encourage a more wakeful mind state throughout the night or that are necessary for certain functions of dream sleep.

Probably most sedatives boost GABA-levels (without actually containing GABA themselves), dulling the entire nervous-system down.

I have a theory that supplementing with GABA should be very beneficial for lucid dreaming. As neuroscientists, and their fans, are always very happy to point out, GABA can't make it into the central nervous system (can't cross the blood/brain-barrier). It should, however, easily find its way into the peripheral nervous system, dulling that down.

That would put the body to sleep, while keeping the brain awake. :)

Haven't tested it yet though, as GABA is a bit hard to get at where I live.

In terms of WBTB not being considered equivalent to the effects of some supplements, it depends on the person. I personally find I wake up *really fast* in the middle of the and can take a long time (an hour or more) getting back to sleep. Regardless of the precise physiology of particular substances, whether it's acetylcholine levels, GABA, yaddda yaddda yaddda, the common current running through all of these experiences seems to be a stimulated/more awake brain. And that's what lucidity is all about. I haven't experienced a single supplement dream that exceeded the length/vividness of some of my best non-supplement dreams where I was waking up a lot during the night. When I did manage to get back to sleep, though, the frequency of the long/vivid supplement dreams does exceed the natural non supplement occurrence I think.

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

Regardless of the precise physiology of particular substances, whether it's acetylcholine levels, GABA, yaddda yaddda yaddda, the common current running through all of these experiences seems to be a stimulated/more awake brain. And that's what lucidity is all about. I haven't experienced a single supplement dream that exceeded the length/vividness of some of my best non-supplement dreams where I was waking up a lot during the night. When I did manage to get back to sleep, though, the frequency of the long/vivid supplement dreams does exceed the natural non supplement occurrence I think.

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For me the problem is invariably two-fold: 1) I sleep too deeply to be aware of anything, and 2) I awaken rapidly. So there is very little time during the night where my level of awareness is just right for dreaming (let alone lucid dreaming). Raising my awareness-level with herbs/supplements definitely works. Knocking my body thoroughly out (at best with Phenibut) also boosts my chances of having a lucid dream (and tends to promote dream stability).

But Huperzine A falls outside of these patterns, because I don't sleep any more lightly, nor deeply, with this supplement, but it considerably raises the probability of lucidity.

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Originally Posted by nina

Even though WBTB involves waking, it won't necessarily have the same effect on your state of mind as a supplement might. Just waking up and then going back to sleep isn't going to have the same lasting effects and alterations of body chemistry (as something like a supplement or stimulant) that might lead you to continued wakefulness as you enter the dreaming state. I'm interested to know more specifically which supplements you are talking about other than the one you mentioned (galantamine), so I might be able to give you a more specific response and hopefully provide some insight into how these supplements may directly or indirectly affect dream recall.

I think it's difficult to say with any certainty exactly what it is that results in greater dream recall or lucidity, and instead think of it as a fluid combination of circumstances, some known contributing factors (like wakefulness, awareness, etc)...combined with sheer chance.

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I think the part in bold is open for quite serious debate. Going through the different stages of sleep, including waking up and staying up for a while, cause dramatic changes and swings in brain chemistry as I understand it.

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

I think the part in bold is open for quite serious debate. Going through the different stages of sleep, including waking up and staying up for a while, cause dramatic changes and swings in brain chemistry as I understand it.

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There's been quite a lot in the press about bi-phasic sleep patterns, and how in times past it was quite normal to get up and do stuff in the middle of the night.
It seems to be a modern phenomenon to sleep through, and many people get quite stressed if they wake up in the middle of the night because they think it is not normal.

I'm not sure about the brain chemistry effect of this. I guess ultimately it must still come down to REM amount, and REM-rebound would still happen if you just didn't get enough REM, whether in one night or from one night to the next.

I do get your theory though FryingMan, although my more recent experience is slightly different I would say. I now occasionally get lucid the night AFTER I take supplements. The actual night I have many very vivid dreams. Another thing that is slightly different to your experience is that I don't find it so hard to get back to sleep as I used to in the beginning, but then I don't seem to be getting lucid as often either.

It's got to be worth trying out your theory, although I am trying out something else at the moment.

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

I think the part in bold is open for quite serious debate. Going through the different stages of sleep, including waking up and staying up for a while, cause dramatic changes and swings in brain chemistry as I understand it.

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Well I said it won't have the same effects, not that it doesn't have any effect. I don't doubt that it's effective and I'm not saying that supplements are needed at all for LDing. In fact I favor the natural approach and typically just have DILDs with absolutely zero induction methods or supplements.

fman

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If increased brain activity (lighter sleep?) is the actual recall/vividness enhancer, why not just WBTB? I find that the supplements leave me wakeful, why not just do the wakefulness part without the supplements? In fact I'm really starting to believe that middle of the night wakefulness is all it takes to result in great recall and vivid dreams.

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Of course !proper! wbtb can induce lucid dream. But supplements are matter of increasing probability having them. It's all about a ''recipe'' what you must have done before you eventually enter a lucid dream. Some of supplements are really powerful, for example I just experimented with Muca Pruriens extract with combination of galantamine and I had ''30 minutes bad trip lucid dream''.... that happened me for the first time. But the point is that supplements certainly doing something ''more'' that just raise our awareness. Our brain is just a neurotransmitter chemistry and our brain is everything we are! So influencing brain chemistry by wbtb or supplements or just thinking we are influencing our '' whole world''.

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

In the last 4-5 months of LD practice, my self-awareness has been higher due to daytime practice, but my dry spells much longer and vivid/long dream recall much less frequent than in the beginning. During this time I have been wakeful during the middle of the night much less frequently, and have been sleeping more deeply. I have let up on the intention to wake after every dream (because I was feeling a bit tired of being awake in the middle of the night). I think this is no coincidence.

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So in other words you let your night-time practice slip. There's the main culprit. I did the same thing when I started trying supplements, and lost my streak of lucids. A lot of people have done it as well - start using supplements as a crutch, stop practicing proper lucidity technique as diligently, and stop having lucid dreams or slow way down with them. The most important element is the mental discipline and consistent practice.

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Originally Posted by Nfri

fman


Of course !proper! wbtb can induce lucid dream. But supplements are matter of increasing probability having them. It's all about a ''recipe'' what you must have done before you eventually enter a lucid dream. Some of supplements are really powerful, for example I just experimented with Muca Pruriens extract with combination of galantamine and I had ''30 minutes bad trip lucid dream''.... that happened me for the first time. But the point is that supplements certainly doing something ''more'' that just raise our awareness. Our brain is just a neurotransmitter chemistry and our brain is everything we are! So influencing brain chemistry by wbtb or supplements or just thinking we are influencing our '' whole world''.

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That's the common wisdom about supplements, and that's what I'm questioning/challenging after my experiences. Perhaps it's because my reaction to them all seems only to be insomnia. I was really hoping for at the least, long vivid dreams as so many people report, but I barely notice any difference at all, other than feeling frequently unwell after taking them, and not sleeping for hours. On those occasions where I do get back to sleep hours later, the resulting dreams seem no different than "proper night practice" dreams. Thus my conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

So in other words you let your night-time practice slip. There's the main culprit. I did the same thing when I started trying supplements, and lost my streak of lucids. A lot of people have done it as well - start using supplements as a crutch, stop practicing proper lucidity technique as diligently, and stop having lucid dreams or slow way down with them. The most important element is the mental discipline and consistent practice.

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Oh I do not disagree at all, and have reached the same conclusion in fact in conversation in other threads. , but that's tangential to this thread. Strong intent and setting a high level of importance are critical, perhaps most of all, just look at the "competition effect," it's no accident. I was looking for two things with supplements: 1) to break out of long dry spells, and 2) to have transcendental LD experiences far beyond my natural ones, and have been largely disappointed on both fronts. #1 maybe helped with very low success rate, but #2, never, not so far at least. Whenever I did get any alleged benefit, it always came at the end of a very long wakeful period, and this led me to my thesis here.

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On those occasions where I do get back to sleep hours later, the resulting dreams seem no different than "proper night practice" dreams. Thus my conclusion.

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it always came at the end of a very long wakeful period, and this led me to my thesis here.

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I always declare, that LDS is all about timing. I was surprised that it is so, but it's true. I've got few attempts that I fell to sleep for example two hours later of taking them. And you know what? Suplements didn't work! This imply that your problem is not supplements effect, but the problem is how to wake up yourself enough using supplements and then immediately fall back to sleep, if you wanna #1 and #2 to have trancendental LD experiences... Maybe large dose Valeriana officinalis? I don't know...

During WBTB I gorge on consciousness-lifting stuff like matcha, mugwort, B6, and L-tyrosine. This makes it hard to fall asleep again (unless I have already taken Phenibut or melatonin before bedtime). Another dose of something calming/sedating helps then (for example California poppy, L-theanine, or catnip).

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Originally Posted by Voldmer

Another dose of something calming/sedating helps then (for example California poppy, L-theanine, or catnip).

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Ok, considering your avatar, this cracked me up...

Yes, I guess catnip probably should make me roll manically around in my bed, whilst in a haze of untamed euphoria. It just doesn't, quite the contrary. :)

Voldmer & Nfri -- but don't the sedating substances counteract the awareness-boosting ones?

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

Voldmer & Nfri -- but don't the sedating substances counteract the awareness-boosting ones?

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Yes, initially. And I always fall asleep reasonably fast after going back to bed. But if the amount of calming/sedating substances is adequately small, then they will wear off well before the awareness-boosting ones do. Consequently, since I use them in this way, I never have WILDs, only DILDs.

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

Voldmer & Nfri -- but don't the sedating substances counteract the awareness-boosting ones?

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St. John's wort, melatonin, 5-HTP do, but l-theanin and Valerian don't counteract the effect.

Voldmer

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Consequently, since I use them in this way, I never have WILDs, only DILDs.

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I used to have LDS dild only, but when I take well timed caffeine or matcha tea or small dose of monster energy I'm entering WILD with no effort :)