Thread: Choline bitartrate/b6/melatonin/5-htp

Yep alkohol actually hinders lucid dreaming (sucks, I know but lucid dreaming is worth it). I don't know all that much about supplements but I've tried b6 and b12 and can't really say I noticed a change. I am pretty sure vitamins and alkohol are no problem mixed together but if I were you I wouldn't put all my trust in some random dude here and consider asking a med, too haha. Also you can technically overdose on b6 since its one of those vitamins that don't dissolve in water.

I have to add even though I definitely remember fewer dreams on average after drinking, I've had my two most vivid and detailed ordinary dreams (3 and 3.5 pages) when I was heavily inebriated but I slept extremely long both nights and I am certain those dreams accured during the last hour(s) of sleep. I never had a lucid dream under the influence of alkohol so you'll probably have to get your priorities straight

After some alcohol I don´t remember any dreams at all!
On the other hand my friend has his most vivid dreams after drinking, so maybe it´s a dream herb for some people..

Choline should increase the level of your mental functioning, if you are deficient in choline (it is used in making acethylcholine, which ferries signals between neurons). If you're not deficient, then probably it would have little effect. Old people need relatively more of this, while kids probably need nothing at all. Those who pop nootropics like candy need quite a bit of this.

Melatonin is the brains own sleeping agent, and it promotes sleep. Dosages tend to range from 0.5 grams to 10 grams. [Edit: mg! For heavens sake, milligrams: 0.5 mg to 10 mg. If it were grams, it could probably put a T-Rex to sleep in mid-lunch! ]

5-HTP will at least partly be converted to serotonin, which again, if it is taken at bedtime (or a few hours before), will be converted at least partly to melatonin. Often 50 mg or 100 mg are used.

B6 is involved in many things, but it is often found to strengthen memory, and it tends to demote sleep. For lucid dreaming purposes, 50 mg to 150 mg are often used (avoid going as high as 200 mg in one night, and don't go above 100 mg per night on average; it gets toxic/painful in too high doses).

Useful combinations would be either 5-HTP or melatonin before bedtime (well before), then at WBTB-time B6 and/or choline. If you're not doing WBTB, you can take B6/choline right before going to sleep.

Looks like the friend I was talking about replied to this thread himself
B6 and B12 don´t help my lucid dreaming abilities. I took 100mg B6 together with B12. After waking up I couldn´t recall a thing.

haha Yeah I was wondering if you meant me or know someone else who had the same happening to him.

Originally Posted by icasio

I have to add even though I definitely remember fewer dreams on average after drinking, I've had my two most vivid and detailed ordinary dreams (3 and 3.5 pages) when I was heavily inebriated but I slept extremely long both nights and I am certain those dreams accured during the last hour(s) of sleep. I never had a lucid dream under the influence of alkohol so you'll probably have to get your priorities straight

I think this was REM rebound, from the alcohol suppressing REM in first part of the night.

You're right, I thought rem rebound only happened after being deprived of sleep in general but I just looked it up and wekepedia says: "alkohol suppresses rem during the first half of the night, leading to a rebound four to five hours after sleep onset". That's probably exactly what happened. Thanks

It's normal for recall to wax and wane. Sustained high motivation combined with waking up during the night to recall and record can lead to very detailed and lengthy dream recall.

Keeping a fairly strict sleep schedule (same to-bed and out-of-bed time every day) can also really boost recall. Being too tired hinders recall. Alcohol causes REM suppression (no dreams) leading to REM rebound (longer/closer REM periods, more intense dreaming), the exact amounts of which depends on the individual.

I recommend getting enough sleep on a regular sleep schedule, and setting intention nightly before bed to remember dreams and to wake up after dreams, remain still, and recall/record. I've had some absolutely fabulous recall this way, and when I get up the motivation to wake up in the middle of the night to record I've had nights with dozens of dreams.

I've had basically no luck with supplements overriding the fundamentals. When I have great recall, though, I have no motivation to try supplements -- it's possible they can take great recall and make it phenomenal. But in my experience they can not take poor recall and make it much better.

Disclaimer: I'm strongly affected by most supplements, not in a good way, however: they usually lead to hours of insomnia (so less dreaming, so less recall). For others they may work better.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

I've had basically no luck with supplements overriding the fundamentals. When I have great recall, though, I have no motivation to try supplements -- it's possible they can take great recall and make it phenomenal. But in my experience they can not take poor recall and make it much better.

I wonder if this is the same for Galantamine; in general, I think it is supposed to make dream recall (and retrieval of waking memories from within the dream state) much easier. This has been my experience, but I am not sure about others. As for the other supplements, I would guess that melatonin and 5-htp might be the only ones to really affect recall, but only because of REM rebound.

Originally Posted by icasio

You're right, I thought rem rebound only happened after being deprived of sleep in general but I just looked it up and wekepedia says: "alkohol suppresses rem during the first half of the night, leading to a rebound four to five hours after sleep onset". That's probably exactly what happened. Thanks

Seems booze has a place in dream practice after all . . . .

Originally Posted by ThreeCat

Seems booze has a place in dream practice after all . . . .

You mean like getting drunk intentionally only to have that rem rebound in the second half of the night, huh. I will try this...

Originally Posted by ThreeCat

I wonder if this is the same for Galantamine; in general, I think it is supposed to make dream recall (and retrieval of waking memories from within the dream state) much easier. This has been my experience, but I am not sure about others. As for the other supplements, I would guess that melatonin and 5-htp might be the only ones to really affect recall, but only because of REM rebound.

Depends on the person. Maybe I just haven't found the sweet spot yet. I have not yet gotten back to sleep after taking galantamine in under 5 hours. 4-5 hours was my record, I was working *hard* doing my best relaxation techniques for hours, and I finally had a lucid dream start where I instantly lost lucidity. I had a fabulous LD 7 hours after 2 4mg Galantaminds + 300mg Alpha-GPC two weekends ago, but 7 hours afterwards according to the charts is on the very tail end of its effect. I can only imagine what getting back to sleep within 1-3 hours would be like, truly mind blowing I imagine. I may buck all advice and take it at bedtime with 3-5mg melatonin, to see if I can hit the 4-6 hour dreaming period which is generally pretty active for me.

I tried it this weekend but couldn't get back to sleep until also about 7 hours later, after numerous WBTB/try-to-sleep cycles, but got only sort of vague dreams, and nothing lucid. I did drink a bit in the evening before, however (but didn't drink for hours before bedtime).

Seems booze has a place in dream practice after all . . . .

But only if you can really sleep in. And not always. I had a late morning start-of-dream DILD (perhaps a DEILD) on January 1st, 2014 (after New Year's Eve, up late, lots of Champagne...)

Originally Posted by icasio

You mean like getting drunk intentionally only to have that rem rebound in the second half of the night, huh. I will try this...

Yeah that's the idea. However, there are other effects: the brain doesn't work well when dehydrated, so you'd need to drink a ton of water to counteract the alcohol's dehydrating effect. I think melatonin's REM rebound is less painful than alcohol's.

WBTB, frankly, if done appropriately, beats almost all supplements, except perhaps galantamine (but G is not yet my friend)

Originally Posted by FryingMan

WBTB, frankly, if done appropriately, beats almost all supplements, except perhaps galantamine (but G is not yet my friend)

How do you do your wbtb? I think i kinda have my rem-cycles figured out, but I'm always open to suggestions for improvements because they don't really seem to do that much.

Well, generally, I'm a pretty poor WBTBer. I don't like being up at night. The most I'll do usually is to do a good solid recall and record prior dreams, this usually gets me pretty awake, and then I head right back to sleep. I wake up fast and don't like missing dream time, so I've established this schedule. I may try more "real" WBTBs where I get out of bed and meditate or something for 30 minutes, and see how that goes. But I much prefer "micro-WBTBs": wake, recall, head back to sleep. I'm still working out the balance on that one.

You have to just keep trying a bunch of things. I think the theory of the micro-WBTB is good: try to find that point of mental awareness where you can just barely fall back to sleep without being up for a long time.

have you ever experienced being way more tired in the mornings when you do the long version WBTBs? Especially if you try several times in one night or several nights in a row? I have only tried the micro ones so far, but after recording my dreams I always felt like I was to tired to stay up anyways.

Oh and do you set an alarm to try WBTB or do you usually wake up after dreams? Because you've mentioned before going to bed you set the intention to wake up after a dream but I've tried that a lot of times and it never worked for me so now I'm setting alarms. That's probably not that good since waking up after a dream doesn't interrupt your rem, right?

Originally Posted by FryingMan

But only if you can really sleep in. And not always. I had a late morning start-of-dream DILD (perhaps a DEILD) on January 1st, 2014 (after New Year's Eve, up late, lots of Champagne...)

Just my dry wit, sorry. I'm a teetotaler myself I don't think alcohol is either important or even preferable as a lucid aid, for the reasons you mentioned. Melatonin seems much better, IMO.

I've been mostly a teetotaller this last year. I've never been a big drinker, mostly the rare beer here and there. I've had a bit more than usual recently, and my general impression is that it is mostly a negative to dreaming.

5 - htp and Choline bitartrate have minimal effects for me.
Melatonin and b6 work much better for me.
suggestions for another supplement to trial?
cheers
ray

You might consider combining B6 with L-tyrosine. For me that combination has proven better at generating lucidity, than B6 on its own.

Huperzine A is probably the supplement, which gives me the highest probability of lucidity.

Originally Posted by thecollector

5 - htp and Choline bitartrate have minimal effects for me.
Melatonin and b6 work much better for me.
suggestions for another supplement to trial?
cheers
ray

Hi collector (are you a John Fowles fan?):

The combination most often recommended for inducing lucid dreams (or at least tipping the brain chemistry scales in your favor) is Galantamine + choline. Choline probably would have minimal effects on its own, as it won't cross the blood-brain barrier to be effective. Galantamine, on the other hand, being an acetylcholine reuptake inhibitor, allows much more choline to exist in your system than would normally be possible, as it stops the absorption of choline. It is believed this increased supply of choline to the brain is what increases the likelihood of lucidity.

Some other supplements that are mentioned (in small doses, as many lucid aids inhibit sleep) are yohimbine, caffeine, and nicotine.

Keep in mind, no supplement is a "silver bullet," as we like to say on this forum, and that your day work, state of mind, and nightly practice are the most important factors in inducing lucidity.

That being said, Galantamine is a wild (WILD?) ride.

Check out Advanced Lucid Dreaming: The Power of Supplements by Thomas Yuschak. Great book (maybe even the book on oneirogens).

john fowles, needed some research there, but I understand why you asked and unfortunately I am not a huge reader.
Galantamine is definitely hard to get here in Australia its very expensive and is prescription only I believe

Originally Posted by thecollector

john fowles, needed some research there, but I understand why you asked and unfortunately I am not a huge reader.
Galantamine is definitely hard to get here in Australia its very expensive and is prescription only I believe

No problem about Fowles, The Collector is a weird book.

And sorry to hear about G. I have also heard positive things about l-theanine (may have been a Yuschak experiment; can't remember). Apparently it can be taken at WBTB with good effects.