REMdreamer Pro vs Novadreamer 2

Hi there,

I've only just started to discover the lucid dreaming world!
I want to explore lucid dreaming as much as i can, I even know I could do it as a child, now I read a book about it and I have started writing down my dreams.
Last night I even had a very short lucid dream, I realized I was inside a dream and tested the light switch, the lights didn’t work so I was very excited and wanted to start exploring but then I woke up haha :D

I've come across the REMdreamer PRO which seems to be a great device for a resonable price.

As far as i have been able to learn online, the Novadreamer 2 should be the best on the market, but does the REMdreamer PRO do the same stuff at a lower price only with a less luxureous building quality or is it different?

Did anyone test them both?

Regards,

Marcel

I own both.
I had LD with both, but ND was a long time ago so I don't remember much what were differences between the two devices. eventualy the RC buton died so I can not use ND any longer.

The RD does nearly the same thing, but you can use something you can't on the ND : the TWC
The Two Way Communication mode allows you to have 6 to 7 sets of clues in a row (30 secs between each set) with an increasing intensity, (flashes, or beep + flashes) until it wakes you up. (or not if you are too deeply asleep)
what is interesting is that you can stop the process within the Dream stage by doing a code with your dream eyes.
so if you are lucid, you 'll be able to shut down the mask and continue your LD without the risk of being awakened.

the other good thing with the "pro" version of the RD is that you can trigger a .wav file on your PC that you reccord yourself.
for exemple your tell to yourself "Marcel you are dreaming".
you can mix this option with the TWC mode

So if the RD detects REM, it will wait 3 minuts then trigger a set of flashs with low intensity AND the sound (from your PC) of yourself speaking, at 20% of the max Volume.
then 30 second later, flashes are more intense, and the volume of the .wav aswell.
and so on until the 6th and last set of cues that will provide a 60% max volume "marcel you are dreaming".

So if you set the max volume on your PC (with earplugs of PC hp) in such a way than 60% of this max volume is just enough to wake you up, you'll have 5 chances to become lucide before and to stop the device from within the dream.
if you dont become lucid the TWC mode will start again later.
if it wakes you up,it is a good occasion to try a DEILD.

So I considere Rem Dreamer a better choice.

we'll see if and how much Aurora (Iwinks kickstarter project) and Luciding headband will be more effective, but for now, that what I have.

Just installed the Pro version as a friendly DV member gave me the sofware and drivers I didn't have anylonger, so the test stage will begin verry soon for me.

Hi Kaan,

Thank you very much for your story!

I have bought the RD pro a few weeks ago and I experiment with it a lot.
I'm just starting out so I havent had any real LDs , just 1 time (before I got the mask) I realised I was dreaming, did a reality check, the lights did't go off , I got excited and then...I woke up! :)

The RD is a cool device with lots of settings, but I'm still unsure why the REM detection doesn't work in the same way all the time...maybe you have an idea? I'll explain:

These last few days I have set the sensitivity level to 9/9 and the flash clues are pretty max too, like 8/9 with an audio message on the built in speaker, timeout appr. 4 hours.
What I notice though is that when I wake up by myself in the morning, I know I have been dreaming because I vaguely remember it, but the mask hasnt flashed yet, when I take it off, a few seconds later it starts flashing. Also sometimes when I wake up with the mask still on I open my eyes and it starts flashing only then. In the list (menu 11) I can see that all night these are the only clues. Thats strange because when I test the REM detection , it reacts to every movement my eyes make!
A few weeks ago I also had nights with 13 clues registered but I didn't remember anything, so none that woke me up or made me Lucid....but the last week I get no clues by REM.

Do you know if any other settings also influence the number of clues?

You also mentioned using the PC ? How do you connect the mask with you PC then? With a wire? Or do you have something different than I have?

Have a nice weekend!

I own a old version of the RemDreamer : version 4:0, without any lcd screen, only two rotative buttons (with 10 differents positions for each one) and a RC/delay button.
the pro version is an additional hardware which is basicaly a black box with two jack cables, + a infra red receptor+emetor (with this IR stuff, you can sleep with the RD connected to a PC but only connected to it though optical data exchange, which is safe).
with this Pro add on, you can load/save the settigns on your PC and from your PC, you can also do what I explained on my last post.

What do ya mean by "an audio message on the built speaker"?
are you talking about the round buzzer which only do some buzzing sounds, or does your RemDreamer can deliver a real audio message by a internal speaker?

About your detections issues, I have 2 ideas:
It can come from low batteries (if you have the round ones, it doesnt last long, I have classic AAA ones)
Or the setings of the sensibility of you REM detector are working like those on my RD, and so "9" is the less sensible while "0" is the most sensible

You may also have an issue with your RD that is maybe not working fine.

I recommand not to wear the mask all night long, but just to wear it after a WBTB. it will save the batery life and prevent it from moving too much on your forhead.

Most of the time, clues are integrated within the dream scenario, especially the fast flikering flash.
I prefer slow ones (one or two flash /s) that more often apear like real total red or white light that alternatively makes the dream scene disapear, like if you really see the flash through your eyelids.
But most of the time I don't notice clues.

So about the number of the clues, the only things that can influence it are setting is the sensitivity (possible misunderstanding), the battery, a wrong mask place (if you wear it for a too long time) and a hardware issue.

I hope it will help

Have a nice weekend too

Hi there,

Thanks for the feedback!

I guess thats all built into the Remdreamer Pro now, it has a display and 3 buttons and a menu with 16 pages to set all kinds parameters. It also has a small jack output that you can use to play a recorded 30 sec. message to headphones or the small mono mini speaker that is included, you can attach it to the mask on 1 side so it will be on your ear like headphones. Yesterday I have inserted new batteries so that is probably not it.

As far as I know, and according to what the creator emailed me, 9/9 is the most sensitive and 1/9 is less sensitive, but I will try if it works differently when I go into the low numbers ;)

I hope i can sort this out because if the triggering of the clues is not possible anymore its basically useless to me. How many clues would you say is normal for a night?

The fact that at first I had nights with 13 clues make me wonder if maybe the device is not working the same way anymore, although it could of course also be that the mask is sliding too much out of the range of my eyes or something.
Thats why I'm gonna try your suggestion to wear it after a WBTB , I am now putting it on at 12-2am until morning when I wake up at 7-8am . It's also in the morning that I see a few clues but that mostly happens when I'm already awake and open my eyes or move the mask up.

BTW Have you done any efforts to isolate the board with plastic or anything? They say its not a problem but I find that its at least harder to take it out and put it back in the mask because of the sharp wires and components. I was thinking of making a case out of semi-hard plastic for it and maybe cut out holes for the buttons and connections. It would also protect against static electricity

Regards,
Marcel

ND2 so far is vaporware. No update from the Lucidity Institute in a looong time. They've been promising an update "any time now" for a couple of months.

Aurora is also in development, not slated to come out until 2015.

Luciding is allegedly shipping proto units out to people for initial review. It's the first REM-detecting, brain zapping combo headband. I don't think I'd let those prototype units anywhere near my head.

It's definitely an exciting time in EILD, this is a potentially huge market if it can really work for Average Joe. Will it, though? I have a my doubts but will reserve judgement until results are in.

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Originally Posted by TheDudeNL

Hi there,

Thanks for the feedback!

I guess thats all built into the Remdreamer Pro now, it has a display and 3 buttons and a menu with 16 pages to set all kinds parameters. It also has a small jack output that you can use to play a recorded 30 sec. message to headphones or the small mono mini speaker that is included, you can attach it to the mask on 1 side so it will be on your ear like headphones. Yesterday I have inserted new batteries so that is probably not it.

As far as I know, and according to what the creator emailed me, 9/9 is the most sensitive and 1/9 is less sensitive, but I will try if it works differently when I go into the low numbers ;)

I hope i can sort this out because if the triggering of the clues is not possible anymore its basically useless to me. How many clues would you say is normal for a night?

The fact that at first I had nights with 13 clues make me wonder if maybe the device is not working the same way anymore, although it could of course also be that the mask is sliding too much out of the range of my eyes or something.
Thats why I'm gonna try your suggestion to wear it after a WBTB , I am now putting it on at 12-2am until morning when I wake up at 7-8am . It's also in the morning that I see a few clues but that mostly happens when I'm already awake and open my eyes or move the mask up.

BTW Have you done any efforts to isolate the board with plastic or anything? They say its not a problem but I find that its at least harder to take it out and put it back in the mask because of the sharp wires and components. I was thinking of making a case out of semi-hard plastic for it and maybe cut out holes for the buttons and connections. It would also protect against static electricity

Regards,
Marcel

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Hi
On your RD version, how do you enter the recorded message in your device?

This night my RD only sent me one cue, when I oppened my eyes. when this happens, I know it is time to change the batteries.
On my RD, I can test the IR Emetor/receptor with the 0:1 setting, and when I wear the mask, I hear the buzzer reacting in realtime to my eyelids movement, like a geger counter.
This morning, before I change the bateries I tested it and it barely reacted.
Can you test your IR E/R this way?

When I sleep with the RD from 6 am to 9 am for example, I'll have about 20 sets of clues.
I noticed (and read it on some forums) some bugs when I was wearing the RD during all the night.
the big initial delay you have to enter when you start wearing the mask on the evening to make it work only 4 to 6 hours later seams to corrupt the device.

You could test the mask on a dark room by simulating a REM with your eyes closed.
If I want to do this on my RD version, I'll have to put an initial 10 min delay (so I use an alarm to start the test 10 min later), then I wear the mask and silumate a REM with my eyes closed. then I wait about 3 minutes (clues don't start just after the REM is detected but 3 min later) and see if clues are trigered.

I recently isolated the circuit side (without components) with some cardboard, cause I was feeling some kinda electricity on my forhead.
It doen't make any change to put out or back the device on the mask, indead it is easier as it slides better with the cardboard. Maybe it slides too easily.
My RD is old, so maybe the tissue became softer.
I also had to shorten the elastic band as it wasnt elastic enough at the end.

I hope you'll find a way to fix it, or you'll have to contact the creator.
Does the creator still build and send any RemDreamer?

Hi Kaan,

The message is recorded by a small microphone that is also on the board. It has a lot of noise, its not hifi or anything but it is good enough for the purpose , and it sounds a bit mysterious that way too! :)

I think your theory might be exactly what is happening, with the timeout causing the device to malfuntion in some way.

Exactly what you are describing is what i did this morning, so after WBTB using the 10 minute delay button and testing with eyes closed, the device had no problem detecting every slight movement with the sensitivity set to 9/9, I got 5-6 clues when I tested. My RemDreamer also has the geiger tester function, and that works perfect too...thats why I thought it was very weird that I had 0 clues during a whole night.

There is NO WAY I could be getting 0 clues if it would function like this all night I'm sure...so I guess you are right, the timeout function for 3-4 hours doesnt work properly, thats my best explaination.
My device has 2 ways of creating a timeout, in the menu setting 1 is for the timeout, and there is also an extra button that is like a 'snooze' function, I will try if it works when I use that to create the initial timeout.
Or maybe I am doing something wrong, I'll read the instructions again too.

I bought my device at this website, they are still making it I'm sure, you can also see my board and mask there:

remdreamer.com REM-Dreamer Pro* *Removed Link*

The order process was very fast, within a week it was here, and no shipping cost to the Netherlands, so very good service!

Marcel

I guess you'll have no bug anymore with an "after WBTB" use of your RD

It almost makes me feel like buying this new version because of the audio (for which I have to turn on my PC, start the software, plug the RD on the Pro, and have to sleep with a wire connected to the Pro extention + a head phone connected to my PC's exterbal speaker).
I have few questions about your version:

What anoyed me with my version was that a killing sound from the buzzer was played each time I turn the mask on, and each time I use the Reallity Check/delay button (shorter but strong aswell), that prevented me from using the mask when I don't sleep alone.
this horrible sound was not an option, so I had to make it quiet by putting some candle wax on it.

So is this still the case on you RD?
if it is, can you turn the sound off on the options or by plugging the flat headphone?

About the additionnal flat headphone on one side which plays what you recorded, is it hearable by someone else who is sleeping in the bed?

I see in the RD website that to turn it off you have to enter on the menue (13)
How do you turn the RD on?
can you use the RD while a WBTB without taking the device of the mask? (with the previous settings you programmed)
or are you supposed to turn on the bedroom light to enter some stuffs on the menue?

Hi Kaan,

You are right, it is annoying for my partner too that the device makes sounds when turned on or using the RT (snooze) function, that is still the same.
The sound is coming from the buzzer on the board, not from the external speaker I'm afraid...I thought that was annoying too.
Maybe I can ask if they can re-program it on demand, I get the impression that they can change things in the software afterwards, they offered to make my device more sensitive too, but I think the problem might be what you suggested.

Turning it on, you use the buttons next to the display, in the menu you have number 16 to turn it off. Menu setting 1 is for the timeout, you can set it in the evening, but this is the thing that possibly doesnt work 100%.
BTW Where did you read about that bug, do you have a link?

The 3rd RT button in the middle of the board is to set an extra delay in the morning with steps of 10 minutes, like a snooze function for WBTB, you can feel it through the mask so you can use it without taking it out, it does give a short buz and light flash though, so that would to be better turned off when you have a partner, esp if you want to set the initial timeout with it, you have to go through 20-25 beeps to do that....

Today I tested using the RT button to set the timeout, and this time it did start working correctly after the timeout!

I'm a starter, so I don't know a lot about lucid dreaming yet, do you know how long the entire REM periods take? I understood that the sensitivity level does not change the way the eye movement is measured, but more the period of time it has to happen before the Cue is given, at least that is what I think they meant. They said sensitivity levels are sums of movement, so the higher the sensitivity, the less movement is needed to trigger it. Because of course it should not go off at the slightest movement of the head or something, very clever! So the measurement is taking maybe 1-3 minutes. I do hope that my REM periods are not REALLY short and that the sum of movements are not exceeded before I wake up or something? :)

Oh yeah, the headphone/speaker in the mask is not very loud and you can set the level in the menu, from 0 to 9. I have it at 6 and my girlfriend says she can hear a soft whispering sometimes, I could set it to 3 and still hear it I think.


Well its a lot of fun to play with the device, I hope I will become really lucid anytime soon!
Do you have other tips that were important to make you become lucid the first time? :D

Marcel

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BTW Where did you read about that bug, do you have a link?

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I don't remember, but I think it was about the old RemDreamer pro interface/software, but I'm not sure.
Maybe this issue is still there with the latest RD, or maybe the conversation was about the latest RD

as I said, I successfully muted (95%) the buzzer by using some hot candle wax forming a sort of little "mountain" around the buzzer, that only allow very high frequencies to be heard, but with a very low level.
you have to use very solid wax, so I tryed several kind of candles.
this opperation is reversible and apears to be safe for the hardware.
turning it the buzzer off by a factory reprogrammation would be a better thing.

I guess you know that the delay/snooze button is also a reality check button (a legacy from the novadreamer, and very good idea).
I only set the delay by pressing this button, and only pres about 2-4 times as I fall asleep quickly.

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I'm a starter, so I don't know a lot about lucid dreaming yet, do you know how long the entire REM periods take?

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The only thing I do know is that there is much more REM stage at the end of your sleep schedule that in the begining, where there is near to zero REM
But it changes from a persone to another.
The thing I just learnt is that there are two kinds of REM sleep: phasic and tonic.
on the phasic, there are Rapid Eye Movements, this REM sleep is deep and you can barely notice any external simulus.
on the tonic, there is no Rapid Eye Movement, this REM is light, you can easily be awaken, and external stimulus are more noticable from the dream.
within each REM slip period, you find some tonic and phasic REM.
So it is a litle bit complicated for the REMDREAMER to work because when you eyes do move that means that you are in phasic REM and so the clues will barely cross the dream barrier, and when you are in tonic REM, the REM is not detected by the device as you do not have Rapid Eyes Movements.
So maybe the 3 min delay between REM detection and stimulus are a good thing to avoid this paradox (if I am not wrong).
if the sensibility counts the Eyes movements, I guess the setting will change the amound of seconds while thes eye movements are counted, so it is like mesuring the frequency of Eye Movments to determin if you are in REM (but only phasic).

if it is the number of movments that are counted, maybe the period of counting must be constant and short. few seconds I presume.
it would be interesting to ask the creator for more details about that, and how to turn the buzzer definitly off.

I suggest you to use the longer lenghts and slower clues (20 seconds with one or two flash by second, with max intensity, and long flash) and a not too sensible setting for preventing you from being to often triggered.
when you find yourself awaken by these flash just relax and try a DEILD technic.

you will experiment false awakening, dreaming of taking the mask out of your head, or checking how many times it has been triggered. make RC even if you are sure to be awake.

Hi all, old thread I know but a question ... is the infrared safe for the eyes?