Thread: Using supplements ONLY to get started, is it possible?

I don't think your thinking is flawed but I sense a degree of impatience and frustration. I understand you though, I too have been interested in the idea of supplements but it is very close to magic pill thinking, short term gratification, so I moved away from it.

With that said though a healthy diet is very important for all the functions of the mind, including dreaming.

Although let me just state the obvious. If there was a supplement (or a magic pill) that helped people to lucid dream frequently, why would we need this forum? And wouldn't that be a big industry already?

Sure there might be some supplements out there that help you in the short term, meaning a few times and then not so much. But the hard truth is that if we are working towards consistency in anything, including the lucid dreaming practise, then one only has to strive to be reliant on ONE thing and one thing only, and that is oneself.

Just like there are "magic pills" out there for anything from sex drive to muscle building to get rich quick scams even work outs.. (1 WEEK AB Program designed to get you ripped abs in a week!)...
The truth is that there are no easy quick ways for success and even if they were, that would be definition no longer be success, because everyone would do it.

It all comes down to enjoying the process of change and learning and focusing your mind.

Great to see that you are meditating by the way! That is in my opinion one of the fastest way to achieve result in anything, because it forces your mind to become process oriented.
Why isn't everyone meditating then if this was true? Well because it requires alot of will power and is based on long term thinking.

My advice to you would be to use the mindset of process orientation that you learn from meditation to all other areas of your life, including lucid dreaming.

Don't strive to "wake up" in an instant, focus on the small successes along the way and don't be frustrated by problems along the way. Problems are just a point of view not something absolute.
I don't even lucid dream consistently (not yet anyway), to be honest I think there are very few that actually do that to the degree of awareness and full control and what not that we all dream of. However, I have seen what consistent action and what a process oriented mind can achieve, and that alone motivates me. So be realistic and trust the process and a few years from now you will look back thankful for the stage that you are at right now.

I haven't learned to lucid dream every night yet (but from time to time) but what I have learned is to: Know how to recall my dreams at will by no longer recalling them but actually remember them upon awakening, have so vivid dreams that I wake up from time to time thinking "Wow.. was THAT a dream?", learned to tap into a creative mindspace where I can solve everyday problems, and now I have started to learn what it means to actually sleep CONSCIOUSLY moving away from the idea of losing awareness as I sleep. (Hint: Meditation is conscious sleep!)

So my point is that the road to your destination might be long, but don't forget to ENJOY the journey. Don't sit back like a kid in the backseat wondering when you are there yet.

Be patient and cultivate your power of will, but be aware of that it takes both patience and will to do so.

But to move away from metaphorical and philsophical speeches.

What this means practically for you is to: Assess where in the journey you are, this means to realize that to focus on attaining lucid dreams isn't a realistic goal. Perhaps what you should focus on now is to actually practise and appreciate your ability to recall dreams. Even if that sounds like basic stuff, enjoying the basics is key for mastery in anything. This doesn't mean that you wont have lucid dreams along the way, but what I mean is that it's no longer the primary goal. The goal should be the enjoyment of the practise itself, because if you enjoy the doing, result come pretty easy, although at that point it's just a bonus. For example when you meditate you don't sit around wondering what pill to take to get relaxed and clear mind, you just sit and enjoy the practise.

Peace!

Originally Posted by MasterMind

I don't think your thinking is flawed but I sense a degree of impatience and frustration.

I can see how I may seem impatiente but this is really not the case - I have heard of lucid dreaming supplements long before but always thought I should be able to do it on my own.. now after so many years and failed attempts I figured I might give it a shot with supplements.

Thanks for all your input! Do not understand me wrong, I am not planning on taking supplements on a regular basis nor am I inclined to think that some supplements will do ALL the work for me. What I really want is just some help a small boost, that gets me started. Certainly I will still meditate, do reality checks and write down my dreams.

I believe that once I'm in a lucid dream, I will know what to do in order to provoke further lucid dreams without the help of supplements. However because I could never have lucid dreams a little bit more often, I was never really able to try out my theory/method.

After reading through some of the sites on the internet about lucid dreaming supplements I got curious because the ingredients seem to have scientific and historic backing, which is something I do not so easily dismiss..

As an artist I have a very unpredictable sleeping rythm, where I sometimes don't go to sleep until its about 3 or 4am and other days I may end up going to bed at 10 or 11pm, which means I wouldn't be able to use the supplements regularly anyway..

I was thinking on using supplements until I have my first few lucid dreams and then stop using it for a while and see how much I'm able to have lucid experiences on my own. It may take only a little and I believe, if it really goes this way, it will be much easier to uphold a motivated and consequent behavour like that. Maybe I will end up using the supplement only for a month or so.. I really can't tell but I'm eager to try it out..

I guess I'm going to try a product called 'Dream Leaf', almost all reviews of this supplements were positive and for someone like me (who has some experience) it might work wonders (fingers crossed).. I will certainly post any rresults here.

I guess there is a time and place for everything. Try it out and tell us how it goes

@Mastermind, You recommend starting with dream recall practices first before lucidity.. But aren't those a bit intertwined. How do you actually improve on dream recal? Overall I agree with ur points in this thread.

@ Cleardreamer
Ur sleeping pattern sounds perfect for supplements to have a good effect for you. You just kind of feel into it when and if you going to use them. Who knows, you might use a good lucid dream to inspire ur creative endaevours. To be honest, you can't use them regularly. Not Choline+Galantamine etc. those are weekly based

Dream herbs like Synaptolepis kirkii and Silene capensis. actually work best when taken regularly.. Yet, I have not seen the results in myself. I think they require you to have decent dream recall abilities to start with.. These are taken daily for about a month. It's expensive but I think it's the best method as a 'start-up' lucid dreaming career. In combination with other methods.


The Choline+Galantamine method is more of a one time-trick thing. It's effect probably lessen when used regularly. Alpha-GPC/CDP and/or that analogue of Galantamine that they now sell in europe (heared it's good) what's it called though, someone please chime on this one.. It works when you use it. And it works very well. It might work as a startup but I'm not confident. However, as a one-time get lucidity thing. Say you have a few hours of sleeping. You know ur gonna sleep for 4 hours. Galantamine is the perfect lucidity boost. You will recall more dreams and lucidity is almost garuanteed, unless you are completely blacked out. Then you are too tired. You might be too stimulated but since you know ur sleeping patterns you will know in advance.

It's not very good if you need rest though, galantamine seems more-so to just enhance wakefullness and not increase sleep. Those dream herbs seem to have a deeper and more thorough effect on ur entire sleeping patterns.

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

@Mastermind, You recommend starting with dream recall practices first before lucidity.. But aren't those a bit intertwined. How do you actually improve on dream recal? Overall I agree with ur points in this thread.

Yes they are essentially the same thing, based on dream awareness. But as a beginner lucidity is a bit risky to focus on in long term, because it takes time to cultivate that degree of awareness and effort.
However, with dream recall you have instant feedback on how you are doing. As a beginner you probably claim that you don't even dream or remember very little, as an intermediate you can write a book every day based on your dreams and you start noticing your micro-awakenings during the night because you are just so aware of yourself and you even remember lots of dreams and experience lucidity from time to time in the first REM period of the night. As an advanced, recalling your dreams is such a strange way of looking at it, "why wouldn't I remember my dreams? I experienced them just like I experience my daily life." Remember that you can fluctuate between these stages of dream recall though, but I wrote it to give you a general idea of the stages that I have gone through from my lowest lows to my highest highs. And strong recall is an indicator of strong awareness, so to go from there to lucidity isn't that big of a leap.

And the process between these stages of dream recall "mastery" (one can always improve) is what we enjoy. For example instead of being frustrated over not having lucid dreams this morning, I was motivated by the fact that I have learned to become aware of my unconscious mind and experience it as small dream scenes both nightly and daily. I trust that I will progress over time though as long as I stay in the process.

A great quote by some unknown to live by is: "The master has failed more times than the beginner has even tried"

So actively EXPERIENCE, FAIL frequently, experience NEGATIVE EMOTIONS, but STAY IN THE PROCESS and you have already succeeded, just not right now. But in the future. We we do not live in the future, we live in the NOW.

You wouldn't let a baby take a pill that immediatelly gave him a sense of walking right? in order to learn to walk you first let the baby fall flat on it's face (figuratively of course) cry a few times until the baby learns to find the balance.

And by the way, why do you think children learn faster than adults? Because they aren't as strongly identified with a self-image or result thinking, they just play. Now imagine what's possible if adults learn to free their mind as a child and turn their work into play and creativity, instead of a frustrating struggle for success and ego ehancement.

I could talk about this forever, but in my experience I learn the most when I fail, because failure IS the lesson. Our brains are neuro-plastic which means that they ADAPT!

Also when failure is rejoiced and when fear is absent, what is left to stop you?

I'll have to stop myself, but I'll end this post by reminding you to just remember this: Love the process, stay in the process, trust the process!

Here is a video to hammer in this mindset: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9chCv8Ighc

Also, there is nothing wrong with supplements. It's the mentality behind it, focus on what's naturally already in control for you like sleeping patterns, healthy diet, lowering stress response through meditation or other ways of relaxation, get physical exercise, do something challenging and an infinite of other things. Meditation is such a great test because if you can't sit on a chair and breathe without getting distracted by your own thoughts (a sign of stimulation addiction) well how do you think you will do in a dream? If the truh "The external world is a reflection of your internal world" bothers you because you realize that you have full responsability of your whole life, well sorry to say but your dream world not only reflects your internal world, it IS your internal world! And when ALL of this is handled well maybe a supplement can make you go 1% further but then again, you no longer need the supplement, you use it to an already balanced mind.

Save your money, use your will power. Because there is where the great power really is. So focus on seeing the potential that is already at your disposal (the small successes) not on what's currently out of reach (the big successes)

Peace!

Originally Posted by ClearDreamer

...

My idea was to use supplements such as 'galantamine' for example, in order to have lucid dreams and then use my dream as a means to encurage more lucid experience by using self-affirmation techniques

I would not recommend for someone who is just starting out to use Galantamine+Choline, or any other supplement designed to help induce LD. That's because they don't work, unless you already know how to lucid dream.

But for you, ClearDreamer, I see no reason why you should not use the Galantamine+choline and maybe Alpha GPC combo to do exactly what you say you want it to do. To help you with confidence. To bridge the long gap between lucids.

No matter how good of a LDer someone is, when you are in a dry spell, you may start to doubt yourself and that is bad for inducing a lucid.

I agree, that meditation, mindfullness, lucid living, enjoying the journey same as the destination, RCing, DJing are all important. I agree that supplements can not and they will not replace practice and right state of mind. But a little push from supplements will not hurt, if you are already doing everything else you can and you know how to lucid dream.

Please look online for "thomas yuschak advanced lucid dreaming pdf". I have the printed book, but I often refer to this online version because it's easier to find things.

It explains everything about all supplement.

I did use GM+Choline combo. They need to be taken together. 4mg of GM are enough to help induce LD, but as much as 8mgs can be taken. But you should start with 4.

There has to be a break of at least 2 days between taking GM, so it has time to clear out of our system. Otherwise we can get desensitized and it will stop having any effect. A "smart drug" called Piracetam can be taken to get GM out of the system faster. Not so we can take GM again sooner, but to help get the GM out of the body faster.

*moved to Lucid Aids