And yet another headband? DreamNET

[Bharmo]

Just noticed another headband project in kickstarter: DreamNET the programmable lucid dreaming headband. Aurora to me looks more like a finished product already, but this DreamNET has interesting features. Looks to me like the EEG is more accurate, and they are open to very different ways to use the headband with open source software, even trying dreamer to dreamer communication. On the other hand, a problem I see in both headbands is: what do you think about wearing a Bluetooth emitter all night right in your forehead?

[pointofbeing]

Most of these so called headband "breakthroughs" are nothing more than overpriced Nurosky mindwave's single channel senors (which are known to be unreliable) with the equivalent and free mindwave app Lucid Scribe tacked onto your phone. When these guy's like Aurora claim how their Nurosky based products will cost 150-200+ and are "revolutionary" understand that a NeuroSky MindWave, with the same dry sensors, and the same single channel output (which will be inaccurate no matter what they try to tell you) can already be brought cheaply 70, or less, and these sensors are well known to be unreliable, and mostly used for toy's. The Lucid Scribe app does the same exact rem diction, with the same exact graphs as these guy's for nearly 100 dollars less.

[Goldenspark]

You say that single channel devices are known to be unreliable, which is true in terms of a full EEG, but if all you want to do is detect the REM state that can be done quite reliably. But that's the easy bit. What is more tricky is reliably shifting the wearer into a lucid dream. I suspect these headbands are mostly going to fail with that because a subtle cue won't work, and a stronger one will just wake the person up. There is still skill and training that the person will need to do,which means it is not a simple device that works instantly for everyone like they will claim.

[VagalTone]

Just noticed another headband project in kickstarter: DreamNET the programmable lucid dreaming headband. Aurora to me looks more like a finished product already, but this DreamNET has interesting features. Looks to me like the EEG is more accurate, and they are open to very different ways to use the headband with open source software, even trying dreamer to dreamer communication. On the other hand, a problem I see in both headbands is: what do you think about wearing a Bluetooth emitter all night right in your forehead? Another headband ?! Yup, some concerns about that too

[pointofbeing]

Single channel can detect rem, but it can only do so much with a single channel. But My main concern is they use Nurosky, a consumer product already with a low customer satisfaction rating, with an overwhelming amount of reviews stating unreliability as a problem, said it would cut out and flatline ect. Nurosky Mindwave only holds a 2/5 average on Amazon.

[Bharmo]

Single channel can detect rem, but it can only do so much with a single channel. But My main concern is they use Nurosky, a consumer product already with a low customer satisfaction rating, with an overwhelming amount of reviews stating unreliability as a problem, said it would cut out and flatline ect. Nurosky Mindwave only holds a 2/5 average on Amazon. @pointofbeing: I don't know much about electronics but did a quick search on amazon and found a lot of Neurosky products, all rate 3/5 or more. DreamNET starts on $140 but that's obviously to make it cheaper than the aurora, it probably should be cheaper, specially since they actually say the software you are going to use with it is Lucid Scribe. Only good thing is they are producing it as a tool for other people to build/develop other lucid dreaming applications. BTW, electrode positioning is radically different to Aurora's. @Goldenspark: I have never tried any kind of "EILD" but I can imagine it is much more difficult than these people would like us to think.

[FryingMan]

You say that single channel devices are known to be unreliable, which is true in terms of a full EEG, but if all you want to do is detect the REM state that can be done quite reliably. But that's the easy bit. What is more tricky is reliably shifting the wearer into a lucid dream. I suspect these headbands are mostly going to fail with that because a subtle cue won't work, and a stronger one will just wake the person up. There is still skill and training that the person will need to do,which means it is not a simple device that works instantly for everyone like they will claim. Even though the intended target audience is largely LD noobs (volume of sales!), I'm certainly excited about the idea of a a device that could work for those of us in the middle -- not noobs, and not experts, but still very inconsistent and well below our desired LD frequency.

[Bharmo]

Even though the intended target audience is largely LD noobs (volume of sales!), I'm certainly excited about the idea of a a device that could work for those of us in the middle -- not noobs, and not experts, but still very inconsistent and well below our desired LD frequency. I totally agree. I've been thinking about buying a device for months, but cannot make my mind up. These headbands call my attention, but still the device I like the most is the remdreamer pro: time-tested, two way communication and light and sound signals (the sound is not with a regular speaker, but something more similar to an integrated headphone - I share a bed so cannot have my smartphone calling "THIS IS A DREAM!" in the middle of the night) If only the makers of the remdreamer had improved the design to something that actually feels and looks like a sleep mask! I read someone bought the remdreamer and another one (don't remember which, not the remee or the nova dreamer, it was a not so popular one) and was using the remdreamer circuitry on the other mask's sleeve

[Highlander]

All we need now is for the way overdue Novadreamer 2 to be released. Maybe that would set the cat amongst the pigeons. Or maybe not... as I would be the first person to do a reality-check if I saw it on any website, let alone on kickstarter.

[Bharmo]

Wow! I just realized I totally missed NeuroOn, a polyphasic sleep (and lucid dreaming) mask kickstarter, with EEG also. DreamNET seems the only with a ground electrode properly placed, though, which I have no idea of how important it is.

[pointofbeing]

Single channel can detect rem, but it can only do so much with a single channel. But My main concern is they use Nurosky, a consumer product already with a low customer satisfaction rating, with an overwhelming amount of reviews stating unreliability as a problem, said it would cut out and flatline ect. Nurosky Mindwave only holds a 2/5 average on Amazon.

[pointofbeing]

"the software you are going to use with it is Lucid Scribe" A free app so why is it $140?

[Bharmo]

"the software you are going to use with it is Lucid Scribe" A free app so why is it $140? Yes, and $140 is the cheapest DreamNET if you commit to send a few of your EEG recordings. Maybe someone with some electronics knowledge could buy the Neurosky MindWave Starting kit ($99), put it apart and make something like the prototype they are showing. I don't know, maybe they provide some other custom software, or maybe their selling point is the "programmable" in "DreamNET the programmable lucid dreaming headband", I really didn't look into it too much.

[Bharmo]

Anyways, thank you for your input. This kickstarter projects can be exciting, but they are risky as well. We all know about Remee, some people knew what they were buying, but many others felt they were robbed.

[Bharmo]

All we need now is for the way overdue Novadreamer 2 to be released. Maybe that would set the cat amongst the pigeons. Or maybe not... as I would be the first person to do a reality-check if I saw it on any website, let alone on kickstarter. Sorry Highlander, I missed your post. Let me start saying I'm a fan of LaBerge's work. I owe knowing LDing to him, particularly because of reading an article on Inception and the NovaDreamer. And I'm convinced no mask or headband has gone under so much testing as the ND2 has (let alone any kickstarter product) And the modification of Tholey's technique published by LaBerge's at EWOLD and MILD are the techniques that work best for me. But to me LaBerge has lost some credibility because of the ND2, specifically because of hyping it, well, I should say, announcing it several times in the last years, and then letting us waiting. And I wonder, what will be its prize? It will probably be the best device out there but I'm sure it will be the most expensive by far. But how many improvements will it have over, let's say, the remdreamer? Will those justify paying (probably) much more? Last news is it will sync with our computer/smartphone, that means Bluetooth in your head again? Sorry, I'm ranting here, maybe its my frustration for having been waiting for too long and not finding the ideal tool that is speaking.

[Highlander]

@dreambh Yeah, we posted at near enough the same time earlier. Great minds think alike! As you say a lot of people have got to know about lucid dreaming via Laberge. (Take EWOLD for example.) Regarding the Novadreamer, well it is well overdue IMO as I said earlier. Yes the ND2 could be the best thing since sliced bread; no one knows (except the Lucidity Institute?) but it depends on how much it will cost plus how much people are willing to pay. Technology and trends keep changing too. There is more competition nowadays. More ideas. However, the ordinary man on the street where I live aren't interested in dreams. More than half of them I see walk round with mobile telephones stuck to the sides of their heads, walking around like zombies, cooking their brains. lol That is the good thing with Laberge. He put across the whole concept of lucid dreaming and not just the mask as a quick and easy route. Like you say, he researched it.

[Bharmo]

I agree with you, Highlander. Technology and trends keep changing too. There is more competition nowadays. More ideas. However, the ordinary man on the street where I live aren't interested in dreams. More than half of them I see walk round with mobile telephones stuck to the sides of their heads, walking around like zombies, cooking their brains. lol Maybe this is why those products are so overpriced, their makers know not much people will be interested in dream-related technology

[Bharmo]

Well, going back on topic, and just in case someone wants to know more about the DreamNet, let me post a link for a (short) review: DreamNet: The programmable lucid dreaming headband | lucid dream art It points out things like the guy behind the project being the Science correspondant for the Lucid Dreaming Exchange magazine, and that he is actually partnering with LucidCode, that's why the main software is Lucid Scribe.

[Baron Samedi]

I like The Sleep Mask combined with The Ear Plugs.

[Bharmo]

I like The Sleep Mask combined with The Ear Plugs. Obviously this stuff is not for everyone. But after going through it again I don't think this DreamNET in particular is a "Pay and get lucid!" product, but it is more of an experimentation platform.

[Bharmo]

but it is more of an experimentation platform. The truth is I really know nothing about that. Anyone out there knows if it is possible to do things like eye signal communication "LaBerge-style" with that kind of EEG?

[IAmCoder]

The truth is I really know nothing about that. Anyone out there knows if it is possible to do things like eye signal communication "LaBerge-style" with that kind of EEG? I want to believe and have subjective reasons to. On the objective side, I added the TCMP channel to the ThinkGear EEG plugin that works with the DreamNet just last week. Anyone with a NeuroSky MindWave can already give it a spin. Here is the TCMP channel in action with some older hardware, showing eye signal communication using Morse Code patterns: I will make a new video soon with my MindWave / DreamNet. It is a lot easier to do while awake than with the sensor in the video, because it allows you to move around a lot more without mashing the "keyboard". But be warned, this is a pro feature and requires lots of patience and hours of practice and I still need to make it a little more sensitive to work with movements that are subtle enough to maintain the dream state.

[Bharmo]

I want to believe and have subjective reasons to. On the objective side, I added the TCMP channel to the ThinkGear EEG plugin that works with the DreamNet just last week Wow! You actually signaled "First post" with your eye movements in morse code?! That's amazing!! Thanks!

[Bharmo]

Ok, IAmCoder, I saw your video in a WBTB and now I cannot sleep thinking on all the implications: As you said, Morse-signaling is difficult and requires lots of training even to do it waking, let alone doing it dreaming. But, if one can train to make only one distinct signal, then it would possible to replicate in you own bed at your own home some of LaBerge's experiments, and many more one can think of, right? For instance, if I practice a signal like up-down-up-down, Could I do that (UDUD) when I get lucid and see in the graph in the morning when exactly I got lucid? Could I get lucid, do UDUD, count twenty seconds, do UDUD, and check in the morning how long that took in waking life seconds? But that is if one could only learn to do one signal only. If one could do several then the possibities multiply! Sorry, but if it's just like that, we might be talking of one of the biggest breakthroughs in lucid dreaming history, well in the dreaming field actually, since LaBerge demonstrated lucid dreaming scientifically! Wait, could someone write an app that tweets "I am lucid dreaming right now!" when I do my UDUD signal??? I would be sending a tweet from my dreamworld!!!!

[Highlander]

I still know morse code pretty well. I can move my eyes across like that but it is more easier when open than when the eyes are closed (eye background reference problem.) However the movement strains my eyes. It's a case of practicing I guess. I have never tried to do this type of signalling during a lucid dream. I have got a NIA OCZ (mkI) which measures basic EOG, etc. but it is a bit cumbersome to use with the computer, the cables, trailing wires and headset. Wait, could someone write an app that tweets "I am lucid dreaming right now!" when I do my UDUD signal??? I would be sending a tweet from my dreamworld!!!! I don't know about an app, but I'm pretty sure someone has done something similar to this live over the Internet.