Thread: Galantamine + Choline

Hey what's up everyone just finished reading this thread and just made an account here. I've been doing a lot of research on LD supplements lately and been Lding seriously for about a month now, but I used to have them frequently as a kid unintentionally. I just got my alpha gpc in the mail and picked up some melatonin and L-Theanine. I also have some 5-HTP that I've used before with galantamind on it's way. I was just wondering if anyone had any more information on using Melatonin and 5-HTP before bedtime as an REM rebound, doing a wbtb after 4 hours and then taking the G/C/Alpha/L-Theanine combo? It seems logically to be a great combo because you would have a ton of REM sleep to catch up on, still be really tired and have the benefits of the G/C/A/L too.

welcome!

you got it right. take the 5-HTP / Melatonin before bed, then do your WBTB and take the G+C etc combo.

you might want to sleep for longer than 4 hours to give the 5-HTPs REM suppression a little more time to wear off, but this will vary from person to person and night to night.

i usually dont get more than 7-8 hours of sleep and dont take 5-HTP anymore because i dont have time to catch up on the rebound.

Thanks, I think thats a good idea because I tried the Mel and 5-H last night before bed and woke up 4 hours later for my wbtb. I took the GPC and some L-theanine then to see if it had any effect before adding the galatamind when I get it and I dont think the REM suppressors had worn off yet, I had a pretty damn hard time WILDing despite the fact I was really tired. Barely any HI either which is rare for me. I also had some mild sleep paralysis but no vibrations or frequencies and eventually fell asleep, but later on in the night I did dream and my recall showed definite improvement when I woke up, no lucids though. Seemed to remember more fine details.

I've been reading Yuschak's book and am very interested in Yohimbe used in addition to Galantamine/Choline. But I haven't been able find anything like what he describes in the book. He said he uses 9mg tablets of 8% Yohimbe extract and cuts them up with a razor blade into 25 parts.

Well, I went a-googling and there's a bewildering array of Yohimbe products available, most contain other supplements that I don't want, some are liquid drops, etc. I have managed to find a few sold as tablets but most don't list what percentage the Yohimbe is. I haven't managed to find anything in a 9mg tablet that says it's 8% Yohimbe. I think the main problem is just the number of variables involved... most descriptions don't give enough information.

My question is... does anybody have a source for it? A direct link would be best, Amazon is preferred, but whatever ya got is appreciated!!

Update -

Did some more searching last night, and I think I'm starting to understand. One thing that's confusing me is that, while Yuschak said to look for a 9 mg tablet of Yohimbine, what I keep finding are much higher... like 200 or 500 mg or even more!! I looked back at the book, and he definitely states that the standard dosage for Yohimbine is 9 mg and the you won't find anything more than that. Huh??!!

So I kept looking, and eventually found a couple of online stores with better descriptions of their products, and started seeing things like this:

"Yohimbe extract (bark)(standardized for 1% Yohimbine): 800 mg"
"Each capsule packs 451 mg of pure standardized Yohimbe Bark extract (2% yohimbine alkaloid = 9 mg)"

So comprehension begins to dawn, though somewhat dimly at this point. It SEEMS like, whatever mg count the product itself boasts, the strength of the extract itself is such that they all result in approximately the same dosage... averaging out to apprx. 9mg worth of extract.

Ok, I'm beginning to get it now. It sounds like what I need to look for is a product with the lowest weight... lowest milligram count total. This would be a stronger concentration of extract.

Logic tells me this is true, but then I'm far from a trained pharmacologist, and my logic has let me down on more than one occasion... and this being pretty critical (taking too large of a dose can have some bad side effects) I'd really like to get some corroboration that what I'm assuming is true... or if it's not, then hopefully somebody can tell me what I SHOULD be looking for.

Heh... after this, I need to tackle the problem... how does one go about equally dividing a tablet into 25 parts using a razor blade? It's an odd number... so you can't just keep cutting through the center like the way you cut a pizza...

But that's for later... for now, my quest remains. Any advice or product links are still greatly appreciated.

Another hour or so of searching, and I seem to be running into a brick wall. The only ones that mention what percentage they are always seem to be 1 or 2%. I've seen this marked on 800mg and also 500mg doses. I kept looking for smaller doses and ran across a tantalizing 350mg dose on one product, but every store that claimed to carry it ended up having the 500 mg dose instead.

Ok, I think as long as I get something in tablet form that's only Yohimbine (no added supplements) and that specifically states it's an extract of 1 or 2%, then I know I'm at least getting the right stuff, and since the dose I'll be taking is so ridiculously small, it poses very little in the way of health risks. At worst it'll just keep me from falling asleep, or else be too small a dose to affect the quality of dreams. So unless somebody posts some info here before I decide to go through with this, I'll just get something meeting this criteria and give it a go. And I'll post the results here after trying it.

***EDIT***

Just after posting that I ran across this product: http://www.herbalextractsplus.com/yohimbe-bark.cfm

Finally, 8% Yohimbe extract!! It's a capsule rather than a tablet, but it seems to me it would be easier to divide up a powder into 25 equal parts than cutting up a tablet. Heh... wish I could get a sample pack or something... really one capsule would last me like a year!

Thanks for the replies about heart/Galantamine everyone.

I'd say do one day on, four days off. I started using it every other day and built a tolerance to it. But I haven't used it in 6 months now, so I'm gonna get back on it. I went from zero results to having lucids every time I took it. I only had one natural lucid before taking it, but that was a year before taking g &c and a yea before I started lucid dreaming again. I only felt a fast heart beat and vibration with it because I would go into sleep paralysis immediately after 30 minutes of taking the pill. And I always took it during a wbtb and either had a dild or vild. I went into sp soo many times from it, it was crazy. I also had some of the craziest sp experiences and false awakenings from it. Awesome stuff.

Sorry it took a bit to reply I've been busy.

It's great you went from zero to lucid, I hope to do the same. I'm still practicing drills every day while it comes.

Maybe the fast heartbeat comes from sleep paralysis, not really the Galantamine.

It sounds a lot of fun.

I've now received a couple of the supplements I ordered... I'll post the results. Oh, also, in reading Thomas Yuschak's book I learned if you use Piracetam you can get away with using supplements every other night, which is how I'm doing it now. If I notice any fatigue or other problems I'll slow down.

5-HTP. Took it the recommended way... before bed then woke after 5 hours and took a single Galantamind tablet (4mg Galantamine, 200mg Choline, plus includes B5, don't remember how much offhand). Also used 200mg L-Theanine to help get back to sleep. Had a very pleasant experience with this combo... no lucidity, but otherwise just as Yuschak describes... pleasant but extremely passive. 1st dream I was sitting in a schoolroom at a desk with my eyes closed, trying to fall asleep! Had several others where I was in the passenger seat of a car moving slowly as I looked out the window. I was almost catatonic in most of these, but there were a couple of very short dreams with more activity. Woke feeling suffused with blissful wellbeing that lasted all day.

Alpha-GPC. Again, used as directed. After sleeping (only 3 hours though), then took 600mg along with a double dose of Galantamind (so 8mg Galantamine, 400mg Choline). Again, used 200mg L-theanine to help fall back asleep. stayed up and read for almost an hour for the G to reach peak level, then lay on my back to attempt WILD. My body easily lay perfectly still... it seemed to be almost numb, as if already asleep, and though I counted to ten over and over and watched the patterns behind my eyelids, took several hours to fall asleep.. Finally rolled onto my right side, and stopped trying to WILD, just let myself pass out in hopes of DILD. And it was a raging success!! Got by far my longest lucid to date... seemed to go on for hours, and woke and fell back into lucidity many times afterwards. This was an amazing experience! Characterized by several things... I heard music throughout, and during the many parts where I found myself laying in my bed (though the room never looked at all like my room) I was hearing people talking in the next room. I seemed to recognize the songs, but on waking can't remember what they were. Other characteristics - I occasionally lost visuals or had some trouble seeing clearly, and had a bit of difficulty moving at times, as if my limbs were weak or restricted gently somehow. But overall a fantastic experience!! I kept finding myself laying in my bed and hearing people as if there's a (quiet) party one room over, but after a while I would always realize I was dreaming and get up to go exploring. I would crash through walls or sometimes just walk through doors and always found myself in corridors or rooms... couldn't find my way outside... it was like I was in an endless maze of interiors. Most fun parts - once I lost visuals in my room but the song told me to feel textures, so I ran my hands over the walls and curtains, then I punched out the window and felt the brick outside. Visuals came back. The song told me to eat glass. I knew it was a dream, so I did and it was soft and chewy! Also, for the first time in any lucid, I remembered to stabilize! Rubbed my hands together and said "Increase clarity now", but strangely, though I spoke out loud, I couldn't hear my voice, and clarity didn't increase. Oh well, it's still progress, and I'm really enjoying this.



I'm intrigued by Yuschak's theory that the most important factor in attaining lucidity is the level of certain chemicals in the brain during sleep, and that natural LD'ers are people who naturally have higher levels of them than others do. It also makes me wonder, if I had learned techniques for this when I was younger (I'm 49 now) maybe I would have had better success without the supplements? But I do intend to also keep trying for lucidity without the supplements, and Im sure after my initial excitement for all this wears off a bit I'll use them less and less. I also hope though that I get better control and clarity in my supplement-induced lucids through practice and experience.

What about rubbing Galantamine straight into the gums? You might be able to get away with a smaller dose, and it'd bypass your digestive system.

... For faster absorption? Mmmm, that's a thought. Does that really work, and would it be as efficient? Might be worth trying a couple times as a test. Prolly be real nasty though! I don't really want to try to go to sleep with my mouth full of nasty-powder...

One thing though... if you're trying for a WILD it's best to stay up for a while anyway and make sure you're well awake... but I usually find the G gives me DILDs if I go ahead and fall right back to sleep, and haven't succeeded in WILDing with it yet anyway. But I do like to at least try for the WILD, and if I miss it I still have a shot at DILD. One of these day's I Will find myself in SP and go straight into a lucid dammit!

Also, I ordered Lucid Dreamer capsules from Dreamamins.com because they have just the G and the Choline with no B5. Yuschak seems to believe B5 keeps him from falling asleep, so I'd like to try without it. I'm also getting B-Complex vitamins to take during the day rather than at night, which is how he recommends getting some of the B vitamins.

b5 and Melatonin seem to be bad combos with Galantamine.

Prolly be real nasty though! I don't really want to try to go to sleep with my mouth full of nasty-powder...

Just brush your teeth with Third-eye-calicification-fluoride-ointment toothpaste and you'll be fine.

Rub it in and brush it off right away? Sounds kinda counter-productive. LOL I have no problem with taking capsules anyway... like I say, if I'm attempting a WILD I'll be staying up for a while, or if I don't feel like staying up I'll just drop right off to sleep and let the magic powder do its work from the dream state. I actually love suddenly getting lucid in an already in-progress dream, and not quite as keen on possible OBEs and all the SP stuff (though it doesn't scare me, just doesn't sound very pleasant). But it's a good idea... somebody might want to try it.

Rub it in and brush it off right away

I think it'd be absorbed pretty quickly. It might be best to wait 30 minutes. Maybe drinking Peppermint tea or eating an orange would mask the taste. I'll have to wait til I get mine.

I like the way you get two shots with Galantamine. 1st a WILD, then a DILD if you flub the WILD.

OBE's? Sure they might be scary, but a lot of projectors say we exit the body every night anyway... It's a natural process we've all done thousands of times.

If you do try it, definitely post the results here! You probably ought to take it the "normal" way a few times first though, and get used to the experience of a Galanatamine dream before you try it, so you can compare the two experiences.

About OBE, I have done it before, just not from trying to WILD, and it doesn't scare me or anything, but I just like coming to my senses in the middle of some crazy dream rather than in my room and then having to try to somehow make that into an adventure. Come to think of it though, by far the majority of my G dreams do start in my bedroom...

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Ok thanks. Wow, you look pretty intimidating in that picture, I better listen to you!

I remember seeing some people on this thread take it 2 nights in a row, and then maybe dry out for a few days. But I don't want to develop a tolerance, so I'll only do it maybe twice a week, with three days in between.

As for my experiment last night, I went ahead and took 1 Galantamind capsule with 200mg L-Theanine after 3 hours sleep. And remember, I had done the same last night and cleared my palette with 2400mg Piracetam after waking up.

No lucidity, but I remember a very long and very pleasant dream. I wonder if maybe just the B5 in the Galantamind capsule had an effect? There was none of the groggy feeling I usually get on G, no problems moving around or seeing properly in the dream - no sense of being drunk. In fact I seemed to float or drift effortlessly through the entire dream at walking level, until I needed to boost myself up over a wall and some people's heads, when I found a little extra effort could easily lift me up that high. Woke up today feeling great!

***EDIT***

Oh, and I also want to add, not the slightest hint of heart problems at all. I'm now convinced the problem I had before was from too much exercise and had nothing at all to do with Galantamine.

The only heart related issue when I would take is feeling my heart race. But you know what it was, sleep paralysis. My whole body would just vibrate like it was coming from my heart, but that's typical sp. Also I dont know if rubbing the powder on your gums would work. I see what your saying though. With a faster rate of absorption, one might need less. But you'd have to know if galantamine needs first pass metabolism. If you really want quicker absorption, dump the powder into some juice and drink it. Almost all my galantamine lucids have started in my room too.

I might try rubbing it on my gums one night... I did a little googling and some drugs are taken that way (cocaine mostly). At first all I could imagine was a dry mouth full of powder and puffing it out with every breath, but I guess it isn't THAT much powder really. Maybe rub it into the gums, chew on it a bit, and then swallow with some water? Whatever doesn't absorb through the mouth will in the stomach. And you might start getting the effects quicker.



Anyway, got some Melatonin in and here's the results of that expriment:

Cut up a 3mg tab with an X-Acto knife... maybe it's easier with a razor blade, idk, but this was terrible! Mostly it just crumbled into powder with a few chunks in it. I took one that seemed to be about a tenth of the entire tablet upon first going to bed and read for a while. It made me feel pleasant... actually a bit like I just took a hit of some mellow weed (it's been many years, but I still remember) - only without any intoxication... just what I call the gasball in the back of the throat and a pleasant tingling warmth spreading all over my body, very subtle. It didn't make me really sleepy, but did mellow me out and after a while I tried to go to sleep, but it took hours. I probably went to bed too early though.

Woke after about 3 hours' sleep and took 8mg Galantamine with 200mg Choline and 200mg B5 (2 Galantamind capsules) - and I also took another same-size chunk of Melatonin. I estimate my total M intake was about .6mg.

No lucidity, and after waking had a very hard tme remembering any dreams at all, but after a while the last one came back reluctantly and only little by little. It was just as 'passive' as the dreams I had on 5-HTP... began with me laying under a sheet on a parking lot in the cold drizzle staring at the end of a railroad tie for a long time.

For real life reference, it was hot as hell outside and I had the AC cranked with fans going n my room and was under a sheet because it started to get a bit shilly. I believe the rain in the dream was in response to the sound of several fans going.

The most that happened in the dream was that after a long time I got up and walked with some difficulty, as if half paralyzed, down toward some picnic benches and tables at the end of the parking lot and just before I sat down on a bench a bunch of elderly people (who were moving much faster than I was) sat down taking up that bench and the ones near it, and then suddenly noticed me and were very apologetic and offered to let me sit with them.

Woke up feeling a bit groggy, none of the sense of great wellbeing the HTP gave me.

So far I'm not real impressed with the quality of the dreams from 5-HTP or Melatonin. I prefer to be able to move around and DO THINGS!!!

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Anyway, got some Melatonin in and here's the results of that expriment:

Woke after about 3 hours' sleep and took 8mg Galantamine with 200mg Choline and 200mg B5 (2 Galantamind capsules) - and I also took another same-size chunk of Melatonin. I estimate my total M intake was about .6mg.

Melatonin is an REM suppressor and 3 hours isn't enough time for the suppression to stop, let alone taking more with the G/C combo. If you want to take Melatonin, Take it like 45 minutes to an hour before you want to go to sleep and then sleep for at least 4.5-5 hours. Then wake up and take the Galantamind with no melatonin.

Last night was my first attempt with Galantamind (1 pill), Alpha-GPC 300mg and L-Theanine 200mg. Slept for about 4.5 hours before I took it but I definitely had a hard time falling asleep afterwards. It took me about an hour after taking it and then I woke up about 2 hours after that and couldn't get to sleep for another hour. No lucidity but that could be for a number of reasons besides the pills. Next time though I will double the dose of the first two and then maybe try 300mg of L-Theanine.
I did dream a lot however and I haven't even recalled any dreaming for the last 3 days and even before that it has been pretty sparse lately. Last night however I remembered 2 dreams in very high detail and part of a third. Even really small details so it's definitely doing something.
No noticeable side effects except I was extremely hungry when I woke up the second time (3 hours after taking it) so I may eat a little with the pills next time.

Originally Posted by HiConsciousness

Melatonin is an REM suppressor and 3 hours isn't enough time for the suppression to stop, let alone taking more with the G/C combo.

True, but since I only took .3mg (as close as I could determine) it shouldn't have supressed REM much if at all. I think you're right though, I probably shouldn't have taken more later. One day I'll try it with ONLY .3mg.

Of my recent attempts, using these supplements, the only one where I experienced lucidity was with Alpha-GPC in addition to Galantamind. But, as I recall, I also tried to WILD that night, and spent a lot of time imagining myself in a dream scenario and thinking about dream signs etc as I was trying to fall asleep. I suspect that had a lot to do with it. Heh... strangely, none of my dream signs actually appeared in the dreams though! Well, not technically, though I did hear a voice that sounded like my sister in the next room, and I'm using "friends and family" as DS's. Plus I used to think she was my DG... so maybe that's what sparked lucidity? Who knows...

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

I might try rubbing it on my gums one night... I did a little googling and some drugs are taken that way (cocaine mostly). At first all I could imagine was a dry mouth full of powder and puffing it out with every breath, but I guess it isn't THAT much powder really. Maybe rub it into the gums, chew on it a bit, and then swallow with some water? Whatever doesn't absorb through the mouth will in the stomach. And you might start getting the quicker effects

I dont know if galantamine can absorb through the gums. Do a little research and let me know.

Yeah, apparently there's some question about whether it can be absorbed directly through mucous membranes. If I do decide to try it, I'll post results here. I've been re-reading this thread from the beginning and apparently it works well to disperse it in a liquid, maybe something sweet to disguise the slight bitterness and drink it. That actually sounds a lot better to me!

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

True, but since I only took .3mg (as close as I could determine) it shouldn't have supressed REM much if at all. I think you're right though, I probably shouldn't have taken more later. One day I'll try it with ONLY .3mg.

it would be counter productive to take either 5-HTP or Melatonin at the time of WBTB. They should be taken when you first go to sleep, if at all.

I have found that the G+C+L-theanine combo is more effective without any serotonin based supps.

Thomas Yuschak would disagree. He believes a very small dose of melatonin, like .3mg, doesn't interfere with REM, even if taken during a WBTB.

Of course, what I did was still stupid... taking .3mg at bedtime and ANOTHER .3mg for WBTB - my excuse is I was tired and disoriented . And I agree with you, I think the L-theanine is a better choice for helping get back to sleep.

Cut up a 3mg tab with an X-Acto knife... maybe it's easier with a razor blade, idk, but this was terrible! Mostly it just crumbled into powder with a few chunks in it.

Instead of trying to razor a tablet to a gazillion fragments you could dissolve it in water and measure it with a dropper.

*

Galantamine Absorption

I'm going to try it myself tonight with 2mg on the gums. Holding it under the tongue for a few minutes to get a sub-lingual entry might work too.

This rat study appears to show Galantamine can be absorbed nasally as well. I don't recommend anyone do that, but it seems to imply that non-stomach absorption is possible. It also says nausea and digestive reactions are reduced.

Mattek: 508. IN VITRO FORMULATION OPTIMIZATION OF INTRANASAL GALANTAMINE LEADING TO ENHANCED BIOAVAILABILITY AND REDUCED EMETIC RESPONSE IN VIVO.

508. IN VITRO FORMULATION OPTIMIZATION OF INTRANASAL GALANTAMINE LEADING TO ENHANCED BIOAVAILABILITY AND REDUCED EMETIC RESPONSE IN VIVO.

This study by researchers at Nastech Pharmaceuticals demonstrated that MatTek's EpiAirway in vitro human tracheal/bronchial tissue equivalent can be used to accurately assess the drug permeability, tight junction modulation, and cellular toxicity of new intranasal drug formulations.

The purpose of the current investigation was to optimize an intranasal (IN) galantamine (an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor used for treatment of Alz-heimer’s disease) formulation using an in vitro tissue model (EpiAirway), to correlate those results to in vivo bioavailability, and to compare emetic response to oral dosing.

In vivo studies in rats compared pharmacokinetic (PK) profiles of different formulations dosed intranasally. Finally, studies in ferrets evaluated PK and gastrointestinal (GI) related side effects of oral compared to nasal dosage forms.

Galantamine permeation was enhanced without increasing cytotoxicity.

Pharmacokinetic testing in rats confirmed the improved drug bioavailability and demonstrated an in vitro–in vivo correlation.

Compared to oral dosing, intranasal galantamine resulted in a dramatically lowered incidence of GI-related side effects, e.g., retching and emesis. These findings illustrate that intranasal delivery represents an attractive alternative to oral dosing for this important Alzheimer’s disease therapeutic.

Heh... conjures images of a bunch of alzheimer patients sitting around snortin' lines of G!!

Looking forward to hearing your results Dowzen.