Thread: Help w/ Galantamine + Choline

Originally Posted by LuxAeterna

Anyhow, here's the problem, though. Whenever I WILD with this stuff, the dream is really..."thin." What I mean by "thin" is that the dream is not very vivid, it lacks much tactile sensation, and--this is the frustrating part--I can still feel my real body!

Thoughts, suggestions, similar/different experiences?

I know what you mean about being aware of your body; that seems to be a common experience. It hasn't happened to me every time; and sometimes it just happens at the beginning and then I get out of it. It's freaky, isn't it? Once I felt like I had split into three parts--my real body, which I could feel; the WILD I was having; and then an "observer" aware of both things simultaneously. Also the talking part--sometimes when I talk in the dream, I think I am probably really talking in my sleep, or at least my throat is trying to.

It really makes WILDing a lot easier for me too. I use the 8 mg Galantamind, and it sounds like I have somewhat less of the body-awareness problem, so maybe you could try taking two.

I got burnt out on it; I'm trying to save it for once a week only to get it working well again.

Do you have Yushack's book?

Originally Posted by LuxAeterna

Anyhow, here's the problem, though. Whenever I WILD with this stuff, the dream is really..."thin." What I mean by "thin" is that the dream is not very vivid, it lacks much tactile sensation, and--this is the frustrating part--I can still feel my real body! -Thanks

I think it is the galantamine that causes that LuxAeterna as it works by making your mind more aware and alert of what is going on, hence you are more aware of your body. Mine sort of comes and goes. I become aware of my body and then go back into my dream, then become aware of my body again, then go back into the dream again, etc.

This is actually a very good practice if you can use it this way as it will make it easier to enter a WILD in the future if you can practice entering it and coming back out of it while in this state.

One good thing about this awareness is that it makes it a lot easier to remember things that you may have wanted to do before going into the dream state, like if you wanted to do the lucid task of the month.

I've had to cut back on my supplement tries lately also because they have really lost their potency lately.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

I know what you mean about being aware of your body; that seems to be a common experience. It hasn't happened to me every time; and sometimes it just happens at the beginning and then I get out of it. It's freaky, isn't it? Once I felt like I had split into three parts--my real body, which I could feel; the WILD I was having; and then an "observer" aware of both things simultaneously.

That three-body sensation sounds pretty crazy. But then again, the whole process of WILDing/lucid dreaming is pretty crazy.

Does feeling multiple bodies make your dream unstable? That's the way it is with me. When the double sensation conflicts strongly, the dreamed sensations fades pretty fast.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

It really makes WILDing a lot easier for me too. I use the 8 mg Galantamind, and it sounds like I have somewhat less of the body-awareness problem, so maybe you could try taking two.

The first night I tried 8 MG, and I got the "double feeling" thing, so the next night I tried just one capsule. I had basically the same experiences with both doses, except maybe lessened effects on the 4 MG nights.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Do you have Yushack's book?

I don't, but I was thinking about getting it after reading about it on the other thread and visiting his site. Is it worth buying?

Originally Posted by iadr

I think it is the galantamine that causes that LuxAeterna as it works by making your mind more aware and alert of what is going on, hence you are more aware of your body. Mine sort of comes and goes. I become aware of my body and then go back into my dream, then become aware of my body again, then go back into the dream again, etc.

This is actually a very good practice if you can use it this way as it will make it easier to enter a WILD in the future if you can practice entering it and coming back out of it while in this state.

Yeah, that's what I decided. Even if I can't figure out a way to get rid of the contradictory sensations, I can use GM as "training wheels" for WILDing sans supplements.

Originally Posted by iadr

One good thing about this awareness is that it makes it a lot easier to remember things that you may have wanted to do before going into the dream state, like if you wanted to do the lucid task of the month.

Well, but so far my WILDs on GM have been too unstable and too, as I said, "thin." I really can't do much in them. Though, its still early. Maybe I just need more practice.

What do you guys think about supplementing GM with something else (like B6) that increases vividness? I'm thinking it might help.

-Lux

Originally Posted by LuxAeterna

Does feeling multiple bodies make your dream unstable? That's the way it is with me. When the double sensation conflicts strongly, the dreamed sensations fades pretty fast.

Well, when it works right, I get thru the WILD part, and the body awareness, and go into a real dream which is stable. It's just the transition at those times that is so strange, but it seems to last a really long time. But sometimes I remain too aware of my body even after I should be well past the transition, and then it is unstable, but usually I can re-enter the dream pretty easily if I wake up.

Originally Posted by LuxAeterna

I don't, but I was thinking about getting it after reading about it on the other thread and visiting his site. Is it worth buying?

I think so; it's got a lot of information about what to take and when, and half-lives, side effects, and other supplements you can add.

Originally Posted by LuxAeterna

Yeah, that's what I decided. Even if I can't figure out a way to get rid of the contradictory sensations, I can use GM as "training wheels" for WILDing sans supplements.

I hope it eventually works like that for me; that was my plan too, but I don't seem to be any better at natural WILDing yet. It probably takes times; I try it every time I wake up at the right time. One disadvantage for me is I don't like to do WBTB. Oh, I wonder if that makes a difference; LuxAeterna, are you staying awake after you take the supplements? I usually just go right back to bed. I don't know if that would make any difference.

Originally Posted by LuxAeterna

Well, but so far my WILDs on GM have been too unstable and too, as I said, "thin." I really can't do much in them. Though, its still early. Maybe I just need more practice.

When the GM works well for me, it is really, really good--you should keep trying, I think; change some things and see what happens.

Originally Posted by LuxAeterna

What do you guys think about supplementing GM with something else (like B6) that increases vividness? I'm thinking it might help.

I've never tried B6 with GM; I've used B6 alone and it worked, so maybe. Yushack talks about dopamine for increasing vividness, but I haven't had much luck with that myself. I do take alpha-GPC for choline about an hour before the GM; sometimes I have a lucid during that hour of sleep just from the choline; then have several more after the GM. Are you taking any extra choline? You should probably get the book; maybe something in there would work for you.

However, I do know one thing that will most likely help, if you can tolerate it--a nicotine patch. I try not to use them too often, but they really work.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

I think so; it's got a lot of information about what to take and when, and half-lives, side effects, and other supplements you can add.

All books on LDing besides ETWOLD always seem to be nothing new, just rehashing what LaBerg has already found out. But this book is a different approach, so I think I will get it.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

One disadvantage for me is I don't like to do WBTB. Oh, I wonder if that makes a difference; LuxAeterna, are you staying awake after you take the supplements? I usually just go right back to bed. I don't know if that would make any difference.

For the GM to work with the WILD, I have to stay up 30-45 min. That's with the powder dissolved in water. A couple times I just went back to bed, and it didn't work, and I just fell asleep normally.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

When the GM works well for me, it is really, really good--you should keep trying, I think; change some things and see what happens.

That's encouraging. I think that with all things Lucid, it takes me longer than a lot of other people. Some people read about it and that night have their 1st LD. It took me like a year and a half. But, I'm not giving up. So I think I will keep trying with GM, at least until the pills run out.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

I've never tried B6 with GM; I've used B6 alone and it worked, so maybe. Yushack talks about dopamine for increasing vividness, but I haven't had much luck with that myself. I do take alpha-GPC for choline about an hour before the GM; sometimes I have a lucid during that hour of sleep just from the choline; then have several more after the GM. Are you taking any extra choline? You should probably get the book; maybe something in there would work for you.

However, I do know one thing that will most likely help, if you can tolerate it--a nicotine patch. I try not to use them too often, but they really work.

Yeah, I think I'll get the book, and try other stuff as well. Maybe I'll try just Choline, not the patch, though. Don't want to have even a tiny risk of any dependency on habit-forming drugs. I'm sure its possible to use it wisely, but still...not for me.

Here's to Lucid Dreaming,

-Lux

Hi LuxAeterna,

I think I know what you mean.

Since I have started taking galantamine (and very seldom also GalantaMind) I've had more WILDs than in the years before.

But every WILD starts in a rather "vague" environment. Normally it takes me about a few minutes in every attempt to get "solid" in the dreamscape. But once I have managed to do that, everything is fine. Usually a false awakening (detected of course) can do miracles here.

About the real body part: Don't be too sure that it always really is your real body! It may feel incredibly "real" but in the end it was already your dream body. I could prove this just lately, when I awoke (at least I thought I awoke) for a few seconds. I was feeling my "real body" and thought it was interesting that I was able to move my feet in bed. Shouldn't this be impossible because of sleep paralysis? Well, later when I really awoke, I found my feet in the exact same position like before the WILD attempt: unchanged!

Maybe you should consider buying pure galantamine (without the B5 in it) and adding more choline or even the longer-lasting type of it (alpha GPC). I take 500 mg of choline in every attempt. Also I started to add 200mg of L-theanine (suntheanine); it makes it a lot easier to fall asleep again without disturbing REM sleep.

Originally Posted by LuxAeterna

For the GM to work with the WILD, I have to stay up 30-45 min. That's with the powder dissolved in water. A couple times I just went back to bed, and it didn't work, and I just fell asleep normally.
-Lux

Oh darn; I was just coming back to tell you that maybe you should go right back to sleep. That's what I do; and I had several lucids (once after the alpha-GPC, then several more after the galantamine). Except for one period, I had the opposite problem--way to deep into sleep, with little control and actually, in retrospect, low-level lucidity. That's actually more of a problem for me than the body-awareness.

Originally Posted by lucidus

Hi LuxAeterna,
About the real body part: Don't be too sure that it always really is your real body!

Yes! Last night I thought I was in a state of over-active body-awareness; I also thought my BF was playing with toys in the bed and that I was physically trying to stop him from doing it--that seemed like one of those times, but of course it wasn't really happening. So other times that you "feel" your body too much may also be part of the dream.

Originally Posted by lucidus

Hi LuxAeterna,

I think I know what you mean.

Since I have started taking galantamine (and very seldom also GalantaMind) I've had more WILDs than in the years before.

But every WILD starts in a rather "vague" environment. Normally it takes me about a few minutes in every attempt to get "solid" in the dreamscape. But once I have managed to do that, everything is fine. Usually a false awakening (detected of course) can do miracles here.

I wonder if intentionally causing a false awakening might resolve the dual-body problem.

Another thing is that I think I tend to be too rushed about it. The second I think I'm dreaming I try to get going, rather than really pausing and calmly trying to stabilize the environment.

I've just got so much I've been waiting years to do in an LD!

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Originally Posted by lucidus

About the real body part: Don't be too sure that it always really is your real body!

Yes! Last night I thought I was in a state of over-active body-awareness; I also thought my BF was playing with toys in the bed and that I was physically trying to stop him from doing it--that seemed like one of those times, but of course it wasn't really happening. So other times that you "feel" your body too much may also be part of the dream.

Yeah, that's what I figured. But that fact is usually only clear in retrospect. For example, I thought I had woken up at one point, and I decided to lay really still in my bed to re-enter the dream. While I was laying there, I could hear my roommate breathing as he slept. After I woke up completely, I realized that at the very least I was having an auditory hallucination because my roommate was at basketball practice at the time.

Originally Posted by lucidus

Maybe you should consider buying pure galantamine (without the B5 in it) and adding more choline or even the longer-lasting type of it (alpha GPC). I take 500 mg of choline in every attempt. Also I started to add 200mg of L-theanine (suntheanine); it makes it a lot easier to fall asleep again without disturbing REM sleep.

I think I am going to buy Thomas Yuschak's book, read up on the various supplements, and try to find a combination that works for me. Only thing is, I have a limited budget, so I may only be able to try out a couple of different combinations, at least right now.

But, hey, I've been going at LDing for years already. I'm willing to wait if I have to to find the method that works for me.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Oh darn; I was just coming back to tell you that maybe you should go right back to sleep. That's what I do; and I had several lucids (once after the alpha-GPC, then several more after the galantamine).

Well, I don't know. I mean, I have only tried this like half a dozen times, since there is so much downtime with re-sensitizing, and whatnot. So, I might try going back to bed right away and see what happens.

Have you all tried using Piracetam in order to take galanatime/choline more often? As it is now, I really want to try this again tonight, but even though I haven't taken it that much, I have noticed that there definitely is a sudden drop in effectiveness if I use it more than two nights in a row.

Any how, thanks for your suggestions.

-Lux

I use piracetam, but I still got burned out on the galantamine. (I waited a week and got the effects back.)

Last night I got up right away and took the piracetam, instead of laying there for a couple hours before taking it. I went back to bed and continued dreaming anyway after I took it, so I'll see if it works better to take it sooner rather than a couple hours later.

I looked over the info about Alpha GPC @ advancedLD.com, and saw that it says that it is supposed to increase vividness and length. I think I'll buy that and try it alone (on nights when I can't wake up twice to take two different supplements), and with GM (when I can sleep in).

I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

-Lux

Good luck; let us know.

Originally Posted by LuxAeterna

I think I am going to buy Thomas Yuschak's book, read up on the various supplements, and try to find a combination that works for me. Only thing is, I have a limited budget, so I may only be able to try out a couple of different combinations, at least right now.

But, hey, I've been going at LDing for years already. I'm willing to wait if I have to to find the method that works for me.

Have you all tried using Piracetam in order to take galanatime/choline more often? As it is now, I really want to try this again tonight, but even though I haven't taken it that much, I have noticed that there definitely is a sudden drop in effectiveness if I use it more than two nights in a row.

-Lux

Good idea to buy Thomas's book Lux. After reading all the way through his book I was wishing I had waited to read his book before starting the supplements, as it would have helped me know better which supplements I should buy, in additon to how often to take them, because I over did it in the beginning like almost everyone else has.

Even after taking the piracetam I am still unable to get the galantamine/choline to work more than twice a week, and sometimes it doesn't even work that often.

I think that taking it two nights in a row several times, as I was wanting to just take it on the weekends on my days off, was what caused it to stop working for me.

Fortunately though after taking a large dose of piracetam, and taking a week off, it started working again, as galantamine is not supposed to cause long term desensitization.

Originally Posted by iadr

Even after taking the piracetam I am still unable to get the galantamine/choline to work more than twice a week, and sometimes it doesn't even work that often.

I think that taking it two nights in a row several times, as I was wanting to just take it on the weekends on my days off, was what caused it to stop working for me.

So, it seems like piracetam doesn't really do a whole lot as far as increasing the number of times that you can take galantamine w/out desensitization. If it made it possible to take GM every other day, then it might be worth it. As it is, it seems kind of superfluous and ineffectual.

Do choline and Alpha GPC have similar desensitization, or is it just the galantamine?

-Lux

Originally Posted by LuxAeterna

So, it seems like piracetam doesn't really do a whole lot as far as increasing the number of times that you can take galantamine w/out desensitization. If it made it possible to take GM every other day, then it might be worth it. As it is, it seems kind of superfluous and ineffectual.

Do choline and Alpha GPC have similar desensitization, or is it just the galantamine?
-Lux

I'm still experimenting with these supplements Lux, but according to Thomas Yuschak in an email I received from him a while back, precursors like Alpha-GPC, DMAE, and Centrophenoxine, are less likely to cause desensitization than AChE inhibitors like Galantamine, as the AChe inhibitors are more potent than the precursors are.

I wanted to find a way to take the Galantamine without taking the Piracetim, because every time I take the Piracetim, it is difficult to even remember my dreams the next night, but when I tried not taking the Piracetim after using the Galantamine, the Galantamine soon become completely ineffective.

Originally Posted by iadr

I wanted to find a way to take the Galantamine without taking the Piracetim, because every time I take the Piracetim, it is difficult to even remember my dreams the next night, but when I tried not taking the Piracetim after using the Galantamine, the Galantamine soon become completely ineffective.

How often were you taking GM when you weren't taking Piracetam?

Originally Posted by LuxAeterna

How often were you taking GM when you weren't taking Piracetam?

I was taking it two days a week on my days off, and although it would work the first day, the second day would be a complete dud.

Even when taking piracetam after each attempts, when I tried to do it every other day, the attempts soon resulted in duds.

That doesn't mean that someone else might not be able to use it every other day, as I think there may be a lot of things that enter into the equation.

For one thing, I am a lot older than most people on this site, so my acetylcholine levels may be lower to start with.

For that reason I am currently experimenting with taking a supplement called Centrophenoxine to raise my acetylcholine levels to see if this makes a difference in how often I can take the galantamine and have it still be effective.

Supposedly, if a person is taking the galantamine only once a week, they would not need to take the piracetam.

Oddly, sometimes if I take galantamine and it doesn't work, I can take it again the next night and it works. Mostly it doesn't work two days in a row however.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Oddly, sometimes if I take galantamine and it doesn't work, I can take it again the next night and it works. Mostly it doesn't work two days in a row however.

I've had that happen too Moonbeam. In fact, once I even got it to work two days in a row right after I first started using it, but on the second day the effects were much weaker than on the first day, in fact I never even felt the transitions, but ended up becoming lucid after I finally fell asleep.

I just wish there was something other than piracetam that I could take to keep the galantamine working strong, because after taking the piracetam I have a difficult time even remembering my dreams the next couple of nights, which has really put a dent in my dream recall.

I had a failed experiment last night; I took the piracetam at the same time as the galantamine; hoping to heavy-duty conteract the desensitization --and I never got back to sleep. Hopefully I'm extra smart today--I'm sure not tired at all!

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

I had a failed experiment last night; I took the piracetam at the same time as the galantamine; hoping to heavy-duty conteract the desensitization --and I never got back to sleep. Hopefully I'm extra smart today--I'm sure not tired at all!

LOL, I've done that before.

I think one of the reasons that galantamine keeps people awake so much is that many of the mixes containing the galantamine also contain a large amount of vitamin B in them.

I had thought that I was buying pure galantamine when I bought the GalantaMind formula but even it has 100mg of vitamin B5 mixed in with it which is 1000 percent of the daily requirements for vitamin B5.

For anyone having a difficult time getting to sleep at night, pay attention to the kind of vitamins you are taking before you go to bed.

I had been taking a B-complex with my evening meal and would almost always lay awake for an hour or more when going to bed, so just used the time to meditate and practice transporting myself around my house.

But when I stopped taking the B-complex vitamin with my evening meal, I started falling asleep in 10 minutes or less.

So....I have now just started taking the B-complex in the middle of the night when I get up after sleeping for 4 or 5 hours so that when I go back to bed to attempt a WILD after having some sleep I can stay awake for the WILD.

Originally Posted by iadr

LOL, I've done that before.

I think one of the reasons that galantamine keeps people awake so much is that many of the mixes containing the galantamine also contain a large amount of vitamin B in them.

I had thought that I was buying pure galantamine when I bought the GalantaMind formula but even it has 100mg of vitamin B5 mixed in with it which is 1000 percent of the daily requirements for vitamin B5.

For anyone having a difficult time getting to sleep at night, pay attention to the kind of vitamins you are taking before you go to bed.

I had been taking a B-complex with my evening meal and would almost always lay awake for an hour or more when going to bed, so just used the time to meditate and practice transporting myself around my house.

But when I stopped taking the B-complex vitamin with my evening meal, I started falling asleep in 10 minutes or less.

So....I have now just started taking the B-complex in the middle of the night when I get up after sleeping for 4 or 5 hours so that when I go back to bed to attempt a WILD after having some sleep I can stay awake for the WILD.

Thanks iadr. I had a heap of B vitamins and a 650mg capsule of Choline britrate last night, and was awake for ages.
I didn't know the B's kept you awake. The Choline I got was only in 650mg capsules and it says to take one a day. Will that keep me awake too or can I take that before bed?

Originally Posted by iadr

Originally Posted by Moonbeam
Oddly, sometimes if I take galantamine and it doesn't work, I can take it again the next night and it works. Mostly it doesn't work two days in a row however.

I've had that happen too Moonbeam.

I took some last night, but it didn't do anything to me. I'm hoping that when I take it tonight it will do the same thing for me that it has done with you two.

-Lux

Originally Posted by DreamChaser

The Choline I got was only in 650mg capsules and it says to take one a day. Will that keep me awake too or can I take that before bed?

The choline may keep you awake, or suppress deep sleep early in the night, which is not what you want to do. I think it is better taken later in the night.

Thanks Moonbeam. Will take one at the 4.30am stage.
Any results of taking extra Choline getting better results, or is it bad for you?