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    Thread: Melatonin + L-Theanine + Galantamine + Choline

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      yige meng de xuesheng Nihao's Avatar
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      Melatonin + L-Theanine + Galantamine + Choline

      Although I posted similar message as an answer I am curious if anybody has tried this combo before.

      Last night I ingested 3mg Melatonin and 200mg L-Theanine 1h before bed. I found very easy to go deeper in relaxation and almost instantly had some visual patterns in front of me. That ease never had happen to me. Really recommended for people who have problems with going deeper. That time I took very lazy approach and soon fell asleep.
      After 4.5h I took 4mg Galantamine + 200mg Choline ( Lucid Dreamer ). My task was to check how easy I would get back to sleep this time. Every time I took Lucid Dreamer I had problems with it and often ended in restless night. To my suprise it took me ablout 5 min! Later I had a rollercoaster of different vivid dreams. At the end awaken by some noise I was in half asleep state and thinking about some things made them almost real but surely it wasn't LD.
      I think that with a bit mental training - motivation to do WILD more seriously with this combo there is a great chance to success. I will say again - people like me whom Galantamine makes to excited may find Melatonin(+L-Theanine) very helpful.
      Although I did not have LD from my experience in contrary to what some say Melatonin does not have an impact on vividness. I am not sure about LD itself.

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      Member c low's Avatar
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      200 mg of choline isnt enough i would go with at least 400 mg of choline

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      Where do you get Galantamine? Isn't it really expensive?

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      http://www.dreamamins.com/?gclid=CN2...FQOaFQodo1W8Cw

      its the Lucid dreamer one

      get this is contain 4 mg of galantamine and 200mg of choline but i suggest searching for 200mg pills of choline too to take it with the Lucid dreamer pill so it would = 4mg of galantamine and 200mg of choline

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      yige meng de xuesheng Nihao's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by c low View Post
      http://www.dreamamins.com/?gclid=CN2...FQOaFQodo1W8Cw
      so it would = 4mg of galantamine and 200mg of choline
      Perhaps you meant 400mg of choline at the end

      Some people just take 2 LD pills but I found it too strong for me with sleepless night after.

      Generally there is a vgood topic about any Galantamine + Choline aspects:
      http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...tamine+choline
      What I would like to discuss here is M+LT+G+Ch combo or other methods allowing better getting asleep (or WILD) after taking G+Ch which often leaves some people (like me) with nothig but insomniac experience.

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      I bought Choline, Melatonin, and Theanine at the Vitamine Shoppe yesterday. I'm waiting for the Galantamine to come in the mail. I'll let you know how it works when I try it

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      yige meng de xuesheng Nihao's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Silence Dogood View Post
      I bought Choline, Melatonin, and Theanine at the Vitamine Shoppe yesterday. I'm waiting for the Galantamine to come in the mail. I'll let you know how it works when I try it
      If you are new at using supplements - the first time try to take only G+Ch after 4-5h of sleep (I recommend reading post that I mentioned earlier). Just to check if you can do without M+LTh. If you can't get asleep easily next time (after 2 days) take it at the same time with M+LTh before bed.
      Good LD's!

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      Oneironaut in Training Wattage's Avatar
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      I'm thinking take the melatonin before bed. Then taking L-theanine, choline, and galantamine at the 4-5 hr mark. L-theanine will help you fall asleep faster.
      LD's: ~35++
      WILD's: 5

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      yige meng de xuesheng Nihao's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Wattage View Post
      I'm thinking take the melatonin before bed. Then taking L-theanine, choline, and galantamine at the 4-5 hr mark. L-theanine will help you fall asleep faster.
      Good idea. I found that L-Theanine peaks after 30 - 40 min with a couple of hours of half-life. I'll adjust my schedule.
      By the way - good L(D)uck

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      yige meng de xuesheng Nihao's Avatar
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      update

      Well, I took L-Theanine later as mentioned with addition of Alpha GPC later.

      In details:
      -before bed - 3mg Melatonin
      -after 4.5 hours of sleep - 200mg L-Theanine + (4mg Galantamine + 200mg Choline - Lucid Dreamer) + 300mg Alpha GPC.
      Worked really well for me. I could keep easily the state in between where I was able to see some pictures, visions sliding in front of me. With some effort I could keep some of them and stabilise. At a certain moment I found myself orbiting in a kinda space and noticed my TV and table. I grabbed them to stabilise and this is when my basic LD started. I was dark and blurry though and I had no full control on me. Nevertheless this coctail I have found the best so far.

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      Oneironaut in Training Wattage's Avatar
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      Thanks. That seems to be one of the better combinations for me. L-theanine is wonderful even for just relaxation.
      LD's: ~35++
      WILD's: 5

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      yige meng de xuesheng Nihao's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Wattage View Post
      Thanks. That seems to be one of the better combinations for me. L-theanine is wonderful even for just relaxation.
      Could you write more details about how this coctail affect your LD techniques and what you experience after intake. I'd like to compare with myself and maybe find some space for improvement. The main problem I have now is blurry, dark LD's and not much control. I am not very much experienced though - had 3 LD's so far. Maybe I need some more practice. Do you have similar issues?

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      Seeker Ajna's Avatar
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      Smile

      Hey guys, I posted a supplement combination in my last post with the experience that followed. I do intend dropping the Galantamine down from 12mg to 8mg as I didn't sleep for around 1:50mins after I took the supplements but I list it all in the post. I usually combine with 2000mg (1 tablet) of Valerian which is a natural root extract to help me get to sleep but I think I just used more Galantamine than necessary this time. The dose of Choline is probably on the high side too... I'm definitely going to get my hands on this L-theanine too...

      http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=71183
      Last edited by Ajna; 01-05-2009 at 07:48 AM.

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      yige meng de xuesheng Nihao's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ajna View Post
      Hey guys, I posted a supplement combination in my last post with the experience that followed. I do intend dropping the Galantamine down from 12mg to 8mg as I didn't sleep for around 1:50mins after I took the supplements but I list it all in the post. I usually combine with 2000mg (1 tablet) of Valerian which is a natural root extract to help me get to sleep but I think I just used more Galantamine than necessary this time. The dose of Choline is probably on the high side too... I'm definitely going to get my hands on this L-theanine too...

      http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=71183
      I've read your fabulous post ( with your experience you can set up your Dream Journal here ). Man, it looks like you ate a dinner at night! I assume you did no need any breakfast today. But seriously...
      I think I will try more galantamine (but not 12mg!) and Choline next time. The only problem is whether increased dose of Melatonin / L-Theanine will tackle it. Maybe I will try Valerian?

      As to L-Theanine - from my impression Melatonin plays here the main part and L-Theanine only boosts slightly the effect. Taking much of Melatonin does not necceserily increase drowsiness. Idid not find much difference after 3 and 6mg of Melatonin. Unfortunately because it would be a nice way to knock you out...

      Regarding your LD - I like the part about resisting to some good looking pleasures. I know from my experience I would not get anywhere further

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      Oneironaut in Training Wattage's Avatar
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      Could you write more details about how this coctail affect your LD techniques and what you experience after intake. I'd like to compare with myself and maybe find some space for improvement. The main problem I have now is blurry, dark LD's and not much control. I am not very much experienced though - had 3 LD's so far. Maybe I need some more practice. Do you have similar issues?
      Well, if you are having dark LD's, then maybe you just need more practice with controlling your dream itself. Remember that most of what happens in your dream is created by your subconscious. Try thinking good things when you become lucid. Maybe think of light and positive things. Whatever makes you happy, think about it. It's like the dreamworld is a thought created environment. I am honestly not that experienced in the lucid dreaming part, because I tend to get excited and wake myself up, or have false awakenings. Lately I've been having some breakthroughs in dealing with that. Just get some experience with it under your belt, and don't be afraid. If you fall for that dark trap you described, it will keep happening.

      I would not use this combination all the time. This combination logically makes sense, but I don't use it that often, because more than not, I can't fall back asleep. I've always had a problem falling back to sleep, but L-theanine definitely helps me out a lot. I don't really have any techniques, other than thinking about lucid dreaming before bed, and knowing that it is easy to become lucid, and being hopeful that it actually happens. I hope this helps.

      Try lucid dreaming with natural means. Using a dream journal always helps. If you are lazy, like me, I just lay in bed thinking about all the details in my dreams that night for a good 10 min or so. Ponder about those things all day long, and how they tangle in with your waking life. If I confused you at all, or didn't answer something fully, let me know. I will do my best. Good Luck!!! Remember the power of thought!
      LD's: ~35++
      WILD's: 5

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      yige meng de xuesheng Nihao's Avatar
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      Firstly saying "dark" I meant the light, colours not the atmosphere. I am not afraid just insanely curious. For a long long time I had no nightmares in my ND's nor in LD's and hopefully will not


      Thanx for response. It casts some light at my dark uncertainty but still some questions left:

      - could you say more what you see and sense while WILD and entering a dream. Do you drift from your body, hear some strange sound while transition moment, have a blackout and how usually your LD starts.

      - do you find any LD difference in quality, depth etc. between when you take supplements and not?

      You are right - I need to spend some time for positive affirmations before WILDing.
      Last edited by Nihao; 01-05-2009 at 09:37 PM.

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      Seeker Ajna's Avatar
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      As with what Wattage said, I don't really think taking supplements is for beginners. You don't need them to achieve LD's and its best to begin using the natural techniques. I may have given you the impression that taking supplements is the only way to have LD's as long as 1.5hrs but I've had a 2hr one in the past without using supplements (although I did have a crystal layout on me) and a few other longish 1hr - 1.5hr ones too. This was actually my first long LD using supplements.

      I think that too much melatonin is detrimental to your REM cycle, especially anything over 3mg! From what I know under 1mg is the best to help you fall asleep. Maybe a 1mg tablet broken into 3 pieces for around 0.33mg a dose... I think melatonin is best used just before bed to create a REM rebound effect later on, as it does supress REM at higher dosages (I personally use 5-HTP normalled 200mg before bed to achieve a REM rebound, I think it has a more favourable elimination half-life). For getting to sleep I think Valerian is much better as it doesn't interfere with neurotransmitter precursors etc. Or even using L-Theanine from the sounds of it (I haven't used it yet but its in the mail)

      This is the dosage I'm going to try for my next attempt in a few days.

      Before Bed
      200mg 5-HTP (2 tablets)
      2000mg Valerian (1 tablet)

      After 5-6 Hours of sleep
      8mg Galantamine, 400mg Choline Citrate (2 combined tablets)
      500mg Choline Bitartrate (1 tablet)
      200mg Mucuna Pruriens (1 tablet of 15% concentration)
      2000mg Valerian (1 tablet)

      I'll report how this works...

      I used to have many OBE where I initially could not see anything or I'd just see flashes of colour as I felt the seperation occur. You need to strongly affirm your vision by willing it with intention or even saying out loud "vision now!". As someone said in another thread saying things out loud usually have the desired effect, and I also find the strength of the projection will affect the volume of your speech which is interesting (its not physical speech), the longer you can maintain your energy body the more chance you have of your vision manifesting, just try and stay OUT of your physical body as long as possible, try spinning, or drifting somewhere, or walking, if you do this the vision slowly sharpens.

      Also I have had success with reciting mantras through the exit, in particular I muster up the most powerful "OM" I can (eg "Ommmmmmm") and it usually results in a tunnel of light above me and the sound of chanting monks or even the "hari Krishna, hari Krishna" mantra song, this is one of my favoured experiences in the initial exit. Better than listening to threshold beings/guardians rustling about trying to scare you back into your body darn'd things lol.

      and as for the girls in the LD... I always used to go after them until a Dream Guide came to me once... well three of them actually... and said "You need to start making better choices if you want to stay here longer". So I gave it alot of thought and intention that I would do some more productive things with my LD experiences. It is a very private personal hurdle to be sharing here but I think it is very common particularly among males so I am sharing it with you... You need to train it out of you in the same way you train all the other areas of dream control... John Magnus in his book "Astral Projection and the Nature of Reality" went through the same thing too and he was very open and honest about it.

      Ok this post is long enough now...
      Last edited by Ajna; 01-06-2009 at 10:02 AM.

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      yige meng de xuesheng Nihao's Avatar
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      Ajna,

      Thanx for help.
      I think that too much melatonin is detrimental to your REM cycle, especially anything over 3mg!
      Strange but when month ago I took 6mg of Melatonin I remember well I had at least 2 ND within first 3-4 hours of sleep. On the other hand 2 days ago I measured my REM cycle (with REM Dreamer + comp) and I had no REM till 5th hour. I did not take anything on that occasion. Maybe that device caused it. Dunno...

      Do you have any side effects after Valerian? You seem to take quite a chunk and twice a night... I am going to try it.
      As to L-theanine I would take 200mg from start. 100mg you may find too weak. On the other hand if smth works in smaller dose then it's better.
      You need to strongly affirm your vision by willing it with intention or even saying out loud "vision now!".
      In one of my last LD i tried it and it did not work. Perhaps I wasn't sure about it unconsciously. From now on it should be better though firstly I have to get to LD... Not easy for me and firstly I have to get more acquaintanced with LD before even thinking about working on some personal issues.

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      Seeker Ajna's Avatar
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      Red face

      Quote Originally Posted by Nihao View Post
      Strange but when month ago I took 6mg of Melatonin I remember well I had at least 2 ND within first 3-4 hours of sleep. On the other hand 2 days ago I measured my REM cycle (with REM Dreamer + comp) and I had no REM till 5th hour. I did not take anything on that occasion. Maybe that device caused it. Dunno...
      That is strange, I would have thought it the other way around. No REM until the 5th hour is definitely not a natural sleep cycle, that is classic REM rebound. What is this REM Dreamer thing you mentioned?

      Quote Originally Posted by Nihao View Post
      Do you have any side effects after Valerian?
      None whatsoever, In fact it must be pretty weak because it doesn't always work. It just takes the edge off an alert state of mind/body so its useful for us because its not too strong and doesn't knock you out immediately. I think using L-Theanine may be better or Melatonin. I have yet to try either though. I'll order the Melatonin soon I think (L-Theanine already on its way). Also I have read that your body may start adpating if your using the same supplement combo regularly and the success rate starts to fall, so you have to change it up with different supplements, different doages or taking a break from it for a little while. So we all need to eventually develop a personal 'matrix' of supplement combos and alternate around them to keep the brain guessing. (like body builders keep their muscles guessing with varying work outs) sounds like fun to me though! The journey never ends :-)


      Quote Originally Posted by Nihao View Post
      In one of my last LD i tried it and it did not work. Perhaps I wasn't sure about it unconsciously. From now on it should be better though firstly I have to get to LD... Not easy for me and firstly I have to get more acquaintanced with LD before even thinking about working on some personal issues.
      Try rubbing your hands together and looking at your hands, feel your hands, feel the warmth between them building, hear the sound of your hands. This may be enough stimulation to your dream body to manifest some clearer vision. I've only used this once but it worked well. Spinning usually does the trick for me...
      Last edited by Ajna; 01-08-2009 at 04:30 AM.

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      yige meng de xuesheng Nihao's Avatar
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      Wow! I had LD/OOBE last night!
      Looks like this combination really works - read - almost every time! I am really happy. It means for me that when I want LD I will get it
      Shortly:
      After 4h sleep I took:
      Melatonin 3mg
      L-Theanine 200mg
      Galantamine 8mg
      Choline 400mg
      Alpha GPC 300mg

      I couldn't sleep for 2.5 hours laying on sides. I was relaxed and one step to SP but couldn't get deeper. Then I turned to position in between back and side. Shortly I had a short blackout and realised that my body is drifting up. I picked up the motion and ended somewhere in space, rocketing with hyper light speed. Later I found myself hovering at night under the ceiling of a church converted into family house. Yeah flying is my speciality Whole experience lasted 50min.
      The downside was a vision and control. Looks like it is a serious issue and I really need to focus on it.
      As for supplements, I thing that these first 2 were a bit too weak to balance last 3 hence this 2.5h struggle.

      Ajna,
      It's funny because I bought Valerian today and I am going to see how it works alone and with M+LTh against last 3 supplements. Looking forward to your report later on. Anyway this way we will be double sure abut results

      As to REM Dreamer. Here is their web:
      http://www.remdreamer.com/
      This device is suppose to give you light or sound signal while REM that you are dreaming. For some it works for some not. I am in the second group. Nevertheless I find it useful and use it for measuring my REM cycles. The example I gave (first 5h with no REM) was an extreme. From my research I can see that my REM cycles differ widely and I need to carry it longer to come to any conclusion.
      I have constructed also kinda of rig where REM-D uses my verbal communicate to let me know that I am dreaming playing it on my comp through in-ear phones while REM. The down side is that the mess that I have on my head (phones + REM-D) together with comp noise doesn't allow me to sleep sound. This requires more attempts. I treat it as interesting curiosity - What happens if...?

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      Seeker Ajna's Avatar
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      Thumbs up

      Quote Originally Posted by Nihao View Post
      I couldn't sleep for 2.5 hours laying on sides. I was relaxed and one step to SP but couldn't get deeper. Then I turned to position in between back and side. Shortly I had a short blackout and realised that my body is drifting up.
      As for supplements, I thing that these first 2 were a bit too weak to balance last 3 hence this 2.5h struggle.
      Thats great stuff Nihao! I think if you wouldn't sleep for 2.5hrs you should try dropping the Galantamine to 4mg since that worked for you last time and maybe drop the GPC for the moment, I think for balancing supplements less is always more if you know what I mean . Definitely don't increase the amount of melatonin, but whatever works I guess too...

      The body drifting up thing is how all my WILD's start, to clarify I think that if you can feel your mind separate from your body its an OBE but if your vision is lacking as mine often is as well you seem to "fall" into a WILD. I also experience drifting down past my feel and out, or through my head (crown chakra) or rolling out and then off my bed or sometimes I just literally fall through my bed and through the floor, through the house, but this is so startling (and quite funny) that it usually ends up in a WILD because I don't have time to develop vision in the astral plane near the physical.

      I'll check out this REM Dreamer thing, sounds very scientific

      I haven't had a chance to take more supplements. I've had some great vivid dreams and remember all my phases of dreaming in fact (not the entire dreams but I know I've had 3-4 seperate bouts of REM/Dreaming) and I've recorded key messages from my subconcious. RC's are going well, doing 10-12 a day minimum.

      Maybe I'll try an astral projection tonight...

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      yige meng de xuesheng Nihao's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ajna View Post
      Thats great stuff Nihao! I think if you wouldn't sleep for 2.5hrs you should try dropping the Galantamine to 4mg since that worked for you last time and maybe drop the GPC for the moment, I think for balancing supplements less is always more if you know what I mean .
      I am trying different propotions to see which option works the best. Any success back then was due to Alpha GPC that peaks later, after 3h. I take it in order to extend the time of possibility of getting Lucid.

      I took last nigh 2x500mg Valerian herbal complex alone. Each capsule:
      Root Powder 300mg, Root Extract 4:1 150mg (0.8% Valerenic Acid), Some antioxidants
      Diificult to compare with Melatonin / L-Theanine. While awaken it seems to be weaker (at that dosage) from the latter but somehow while trying to WILD I fell asleep:\ Today I am going to take more and be more motivated/alerted.

      As for OOBE - do you think that the light in the room has any impact on your vision while the first moment of OOBE? My room is usually pitch black at night.
      Last edited by Nihao; 01-10-2009 at 05:09 PM.

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      Seeker Ajna's Avatar
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      I use Valerian just as a relaxer to help me sleep, especially when my circadian rhythms are out or if I've taken AcH agonisers like Galantamine. I don't think it will cause any REM rebound or any other advantages for LD'ing other than help you to refine your sleep wake cycle, it has no effect on neurotransmitters. I'll have to have a look at the concentration of the Valerian I use though because I think it might be stronger than yours, and each tablet has 2000mg of the stuff :-)

      I used to light a candle a few years ago to help vision during OBE and it did help. During the day when having a nap at the post perenial dip around 3pm is also a good time to attempt WILD's I think. Read on a couch or in bed to get nice and drowsy first.

      Last night I took 100mg of B6 at dinner 7:30pm just to have it in my system. Then 200mg of 5-HTP and 2000mg of Valerian at 11:00pm, read for half an hour, then layed back and started some energy work, the I decided to give that WILD technique we have been discussing a go (5000 year old etc) just to see what would happen. After 20 mins it was working and the energy body was loosening, had my arms and head out, until the cat jumped onto the window ledge and crashed into the blinds and brought me out of it lol! So I gave up on that, turned onto my side and went to sleep soon after.

      First period of REM it was a typical chase dream and at night, I was running along a city street and then turned left through some city gardens - with friends, running away from the law or something like that. I looked back as I was running and became lucid when I recognised the motion as being similar to Lucidipedias learning lucid dreaming video part 9 or 10 example of a "typical chase dream" in his words (weird process there). So I looked forward and saw I was running out of the gardens towards a main city street and I thought it would be awesome to get into the city because the level of detail was amazing. There was a police man just at the corner who was watching me run and I looked at his face and the expression was so funny it made me wake up (or it could have been the conclusion of the REM cycle), it was like a "what the ?" expression. Given that it was the first stage of REM I think the B6 definitely had something to do with it but why no REM rebound from the 5-HTP???.

      Then later on in the night maybe the 3rd REM cycle I became lucid in a dream after feeling a vertigo like projection reflex sensation and came out of the dream immediately and had an OBE, managed to turn around at the foot of the bed and see my girlfriend and I there in bed! but then it faded quickly and I woke up again. So I think I was achieving lucidity just at the finale of the REM cycle which was unfortunate.

      Then when I went back to sleep again I slept right through until the morning with regular dreaming and missed the opportunity to take some supplements and WILD. I think the B6 is encouraging but it shouldn't be taken at the same time as our usual supplements as there can be reactions.
      Last edited by Ajna; 01-11-2009 at 04:20 AM. Reason: spelling

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      yige meng de xuesheng Nihao's Avatar
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      2nd attempt with Valerian 1500mg ended with same result - I fell asleep. Very strange as for me. My impression is that Melatonin + L-Theanine works better - deeper but I can't have a full certainty after just 2 attempts and wait for your experience with the latter.
      BTW I found out that more than ~0.5mg Melatonin after worn off causes insomniac effect - contrary to its purpose. That is why I had to wait 2.5h at my last WILD. Dozes less than that don't suppress REM. That means I have to cut my 3mg tiny tablets from now on:\
      Then later on in the night maybe the 3rd REM cycle I became lucid in a dream after feeling a vertigo like projection reflex sensation and came out of the dream immediately and had an OBE
      I had similar vertigo kind experience with some unknown (to me) American 70's folkrock in the backround. That was probably due to Alpha GPC.

      I going to order some Mucuna P. What's the make of yours?
      Looks like I will end up with the same dinner at night as yours On the other hand I'm pissed off about my dependency on supplements and am woking on WILDing clear. No succes so far but I won't give up...

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      I suggest you try taking less Valerian if you are falling asleep, try 500mg.
      I've never had much luck with Valerian for lucid dreams, it usually knocks me out but I believe it could be good for WILDs if you are to wired. Perhaps it would help with Galantamine or GPC, which I haven't tried with Valerian. I take Valerian occasionally before bed to help me sleep, 500mg is usually enough and if I take 1000mg I sleep very well, but very deeply.

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