Correlation between effortlessness and lucid dream quality?

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09-19-2005, 04:38 PM
Universal Mind

Correlation between effortlessness and lucid dream quality?

My two latest long lucid dreams got me to wondering why they were so light compared to other lucid dreams and especially to my non-lucid dreams. In thinking about that, I thought back on every lucid I could remember. I saw a correlation between effortlessness and dream quality. It seems that my best lucid moments happen when I am a spectator and not pushing hard or at all to control the dream. Every time I get really concerned with what I am going to make the dream do and then start putting out strong effort to make things happen, the dream environment is cartoonish or just relatively dull.

Transcendental mediation teachers say that the proper method for TM is near effortless repeating of the mantra. Strain reduces the quality of transcendental consciousness. I am thinking lucid dreaming probably works the same way. Pushes to change the dream should be either completely effortless or nearly effortless. In other words, all or nearly all of the "effort" should be subconscious. Leo Volont talked recently about experiencing a lucid dream without ever putting up effort, just letting the dream happen while you experience it so that you can have the full benefits of dreaming in terms of the neurological/psychological purposes of dreaming. It seems that that might be the way to experience the ultimate lucid dream consciousness.

Does anybody know anything about how this might work?
09-19-2005, 04:48 PM
Tornado Joe

Quote:

Transcendental mediation teachers say that the proper method for TM is near effortless repeating of the mantra. Strain reduces the quality of transcendental consciousness[/b]

This seems to apply directly to lucid dreaming as well, I feel. Many of us having difficulty achieving numerous or consecutibe LDs appear to have more difficulty the harder we try.

I suppose there is an ideal balance of effort and passivness needed to get the best results in meditation and/or lucid dreaming.
09-19-2005, 05:05 PM
Universal Mind

Putting out major effort to haved lucid dreams is what works for me in terms of getting there. I am talking about putting out effort to do behaviors and change dream scenery after the lucid dream state has been achieved.
09-19-2005, 07:13 PM
Genjyo

I've had about 50% success inducing LDs. I haven't perfected my methods, but I have noticed in that probability the intensity is correlated to the calmness of my being.
09-19-2005, 11:56 PM
Dangeruss

you just have to be concious of what the dream is telling you. This morning I was lucid and following a group of people i knew having a conversation. Since I was interested I kept following even after I became lucid, but I used my mind to open doors, jumped huge distances, and ran really fast in the process. I find if I use lucidity to fly away from a situation which i feel is important, the dream slaps me on the wrist by rewinding to the important part and losing some realism. Just remember to be polite. Let the current plot finish and then wander off, so that your mind isn't suddenly pried away from something it wanted you to see.
09-20-2005, 02:31 PM
Universal Mind

Quote:

Originally posted by Dangeruss
you just have to be concious of what the dream is telling you. This morning I was lucid and following a group of people i knew having a conversation. Since I was interested I kept following even after I became lucid, but I used my mind to open doors, jumped huge distances, and ran really fast in the process. I find if I use lucidity to fly away from a situation which i feel is important, the dream slaps me on the wrist by rewinding to the important part and losing some realism. Just remember to be polite. Let the current plot finish and then wander off, so that your mind isn't suddenly pried away from something it wanted you to see.

I really think there's something to that. In my last lucid, I kept trying to do all this superhuman stuff, but no matter what I did and no matter how much I manipulated the dream, I kept vanishing from scenes and appearing at some apartment complex. I think the constant trying hard to do things might have had something to do with the relatively low quality of the dream outside of doing those extreme things, all of which I could only make last a few seconds each. The atmosphere seemed less deep and intense.

I have had great lucids where I was willing myself to do things, but I think the more effortless the trying is, the better the quality is. For example, I went back in time to Woodstock and watched Jefferson Airplane perform one time. I thought with ease about appearing at Woodstock, and then all I did was watch the performance. The concert event was totally passive on my part, and it was extremely intense. I wasn't trying to do anything except absorb the situation. I am not totally sure what the connection is, but there seems to be a correlation. Maybe not.
09-20-2005, 07:00 PM
Universal Mind

Update: I just read the main page for the first time in a while. It talks about how using too much force to control a dream will wake you up. I think my use of too much force has at times made me closer to waking up without waking me up, thereby diminishing dream quality. The dream world was fainter than otherwise because I was waking myself up some, but not all the way, by using too much force/effort in controlling the dreams. I think changing that should bring about a revolution in my lucid dreaming.
09-20-2005, 07:02 PM
bzteam

I agree with the original poster. I find if I go along with the dream and only intervene in a very minor way I will accomplish two things: one being my increased success rate in controlling the dream, and an overall lengthier lucid dream.

It also makes sense in the idea that your dream will quit or override you if you attempt to divert from what it's trying to tell you.

Many times however, dreams are "you get what you're given" - that is; whether it be by reason of chemical or neurological e.t.c. states in the brain, we simply don't always get the same level of lucidty and/or control with every dream. You have to make due with what you have.
09-20-2005, 08:12 PM
megamorph

Mutations of awareness.

I agree with the idea that LDs are more intense when we let things be natural. I have had many experiences where I realize that I am dreaming and then I try hard to control myself instead of being plain old aware. One time--the entire dream world shattered like it was made of glass when I realized I wanted control and completion of desires. Another time, the world became scarred as my gaze passed over it and my desires grew and I started to grasp at things. And things DID become all cartoony and simplistic as one post mentioned before this.

I think this signifies something. From a interpretative point-of-view maybe this means that the dream world is a natural by-product (a side-effect) of stepping on the spiritual path to self-realization and that doing unnatural things that aren't related to self-realization will only mutate things. But that's another discussion. :-P
09-23-2005, 01:20 PM
Leo Volont

Re: Correlation between effortlessness and lucid dream quali

Quote:

Originally posted by Universal Mind
My two latest long lucid dreams got me to wondering why they were so light compared to other lucid dreams and especially to my non-lucid dreams. In thinking about that, I thought back on every lucid I could remember. I saw a correlation between effortlessness and dream quality. It seems that my best lucid moments happen when I am a spectator and not pushing hard or at all to control the dream. Every time I get really concerned with what I am going to make the dream do and then start putting out strong effort to make things happen, the dream environment is cartoonish or just relatively dull.

Transcendental mediation teachers say that the proper method for TM is near effortless repeating of the mantra. Strain reduces the quality of transcendental consciousness. I am thinking lucid dreaming probably works the same way. Pushes to change the dream should be either completely effortless or nearly effortless. In other words, all or nearly all of the \"effort\" should be subconscious. Leo Volont talked recently about experiencing a lucid dream without ever putting up effort, just letting the dream happen while you experience it so that you can have the full benefits of dreaming in terms of the neurological/psychological purposes of dreaming. It seems that that might be the way to experience the ultimate lucid dream consciousness.

Does anybody know anything about how this might work?

I do support your hypothesis that the least Control may result in having the most vivid of Dreams, as it gives the Higher Mind the most opportunity to provide for the most vivid of dreams, while offering the Higher Mind the least resistance.

However, we have ordinary dreams in which we offer up no obstructionary Control, and yet those dreams are not often very vivid. So the basic Vividness and Power of a Lucid Dream, or any 'Big' Dream, as Carl Jung called them, must be somewhat independent of the Individual's orientation toward Control, at least initially.

Many people have Lucid Dreams without having to force them with reality checks and other forms of induction or deduction. It seems that the Energy Threshold, which generates Consciousness, simply needs to ascend past a certain point, and, voila, there is Lucidity. But after this point is reached, THEN the individual can allow the Higher Mind to play out the very special pre-arranged Dream Scenario, or the individual can drain all of the power away by exerting Control... to create his cartoons out of the substance that the Higher Mind could have used to summon up a Shangrila.

But even then, it still seems that the Higher Mind is expecting the Dreamer to make certain correct CHOICES. I do believe that Dreams are in large part TESTS. Remember the Myth of the Sphinx. In going the Way we are expected to take the correct forks in the Road. Just a few months ago, one of our own Dreamers from this page had quite a breakthrough Dream, being allowed to pass by Christ into Heaven, but only after having passed an actual exam.

So the Intensity of ones Dreams may not simply depend upon how passive and quiet we can be, but also upon discerning the correct response among the choices being offered us. But, yes, indeed, sometimes the best choice may be to be quiet. I need to here demonstrate my Intellectual Honesty by arguing against myself for a moment by reminding myself that perhaps my Biggest Dream was one where I simply walked away from it all and arose up into the air and intoned an AUM. That was my dream of the White Light... but I'm sure you all know it already... I've spoken of it so much.
09-23-2005, 04:21 PM
Universal Mind

So it looks like intensity probably depends on more than effortlessness, but straining toward a behavior always to some extent reduces vividness. That has to be what I was doing wrong in my most recent lucids.
09-23-2005, 05:29 PM
Leo Volont

Quote:

Originally posted by Universal Mind
So it looks like intensity probably depends on more than effortlessness, but straining toward a behavior always to some extent reduces vividness. That has to be what I was doing wrong in my most recent lucids.

Hmmmmmm. Have you ever noticed that most of the really important Spiritual Truths are embedded in Paradox. So in this situation I suppose that the Truth requires one to have a High Objective but to not push at it, which would require one to open up to a Higher Influence and then to simply receive it.

Have you ever read Sommerset Mauhm's "The Razor's Edge". The title suggests that on the Spiritual Path one is always balanced between the demanding poles of paradox.
12-07-2010, 04:59 AM
nakah

any TMers here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

My two latest long lucid dreams got me to wondering why they were so light compared to other lucid dreams and especially to my non-lucid dreams. In thinking about that, I thought back on every lucid I could remember. I saw a correlation between effortlessness and dream quality. It seems that my best lucid moments happen when I am a spectator and not pushing hard or at all to control the dream. Every time I get really concerned with what I am going to make the dream do and then start putting out strong effort to make things happen, the dream environment is cartoonish or just relatively dull.

Transcendental mediation teachers say that the proper method for TM is near effortless repeating of the mantra. Strain reduces the quality of transcendental consciousness. I am thinking lucid dreaming probably works the same way. Pushes to change the dream should be either completely effortless or nearly effortless. In other words, all or nearly all of the "effort" should be subconscious. Leo Volont talked recently about experiencing a lucid dream without ever putting up effort, just letting the dream happen while you experience it so that you can have the full benefits of dreaming in terms of the neurological/psychological purposes of dreaming. It seems that that might be the way to experience the ultimate lucid dream consciousness.

Does anybody know anything about how this might work?

Hi Universal Mind ,

I know its been a long time since you posted this but i am at my wits end tryin g to go lucid for the past 3 months with no results :(...My dilemma is that i have been a TM meditator for the past 18 years and i have been having sneaking suspicions that my TM practice might actually be interfering with my LD efforts and since then i have been trying to locate other TM practicioners who are also in LD and after reading your post i wasnt sure whether you practice TM or not as i am in desperate need to trying to find out if the other LD practicing TMers having the same difficulty as i am ?...your insights on this matter would be highly appreciated...