Very disturbing results. Your take?

I just had a good solid LD, and I decided to try something that I had suggested to my friends: Confront my biggest fear. I was walking through a warehouse and decided that right around the corner would be my biggest fear, and I was going after it. Once I made the decision, the dream sort of went to auto-pilot, so I went with it, still quite lucid. As I rounded the corner, I passed a barrel full of shovels, and grabbed one. It was heavy. I went around several more corners, my anticipation growing, my fear building, and the ambient light level going down. I entered an area then where my cat was perched upon a high shelf, looking at me. I started towards her, and she jumped down and ran. I chased her down and proceeded to attack her with the shovel! The first swing took off most of her tail, and the next few broke her vertebret, each one closer to her neck. When she coulnd't run any more, I used the shovel to take off her head, to the effect of a great deal or deep crimson blood. From the moment I saw her, I wasn't scared, but then I was afraid she may have died in real life, too. I felt terrible and had no idea how I could have done such a thing to my friend. I tried to wake up after that, and succeded in a FA.

I'd love to hear anyone else's take on this one. For some reason, I especially want to hear Leo's reaction. I think he might have something for me.

:|

The only thing I can make from it is that your worst fear may be to hurt the ones you love. That would be my guess, but I wouldn't mind hearing what Leo has to say about this one either.

I've got to agree with Aphius on this one. There isn't much else I can draw from that.
But....hell of a dream. :shock:

Quote:

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Originally posted by O-Nieronaut
I just had a good solid LD, and I decided to try something that I had suggested to my friends: Confront my biggest fear. I was walking through a warehouse and decided that right around the corner would be my biggest fear, and I was going after it. Once I made the decision, the dream sort of went to auto-pilot, so I went with it, still quite lucid. As I rounded the corner, I passed a barrel full of shovels, and grabbed one. It was heavy. I went around several more corners, my anticipation growing, my fear building, and the ambient light level going down. I entered an area then where my cat was perched upon a high shelf, looking at me. I started towards her, and she jumped down and ran. I chased her down and proceeded to attack her with the shovel! The first swing took off most of her tail, and the next few broke her vertebret, each one closer to her neck. When she coulnd't run any more, I used the shovel to take off her head, to the effect of a great deal or deep crimson blood. From the moment I saw her, I wasn't scared, but then I was afraid she may have died in real life, too. I felt terrible and had no idea how I could have done such a thing to my friend. I tried to wake up after that, and succeded in a FA.

I'd love to hear anyone else's take on this one. For some reason, I especially want to hear Leo's reaction. I think he might have something for me.

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Why you Silly Goose! You got exactly what you wished for -- Your Greatest fear is that any harm should come to your Finest Little Buddy, your Cat. Yes, it is not a totally rational fear, and if you had any sense you should fear for far worse... but that is not quite how fear works, as you've found out. Fear is of the Heart more than from the Mind, and so we fear most that harm will come to the ones we Love. And you love your Cat.

But lets look more closely. It was getting dark in your place of fear. In this we know that you would fear all of the things of Darkness -- ignorance, insanity. There were shovels. This means that you fear that you may one day have to work the most basic forms of manual labor. If you could go your entire life without having to touch a shovel you would be the happier for it. Finally, in addition to harm coming to your Little Friend, it came from your own hand. You fear having to commit violence. You fear being violent.

Anyway, you need not worry about any of this. yes, it was a very instructive idea. It shows a wonderful sense of imagination and drama to wish something like that upon yourself, but I hope you have learned your lessons there. You may notice if you look about enough, but that the happiest people keep their Dramas in the TV and the Movies.

In your real life, the Light will not grow dim, there will be no shovels, and the furthest thing from manifest reality will be you ever harming a hair on Kitties little head.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Aphius
:| *

The only thing I can make from it is that your worst fear may be to hurt the ones you love. That would be my guess, but I wouldn't mind hearing what Leo has to say about this one either.

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Why, I said the same thing you did, but, then again, it would not have been me, would it have, if I had not used ten times the words for it.

I thought I had sufficiently responded to this post but then, as I went out for coffee, had further thoughts.

It may seem trivial, having so much feeling for a cat, but then it occurred to me to remember an episode from my own life, from some twenty or thirty years ago. I had taken in a small kitty. There was a Cat Lady, as they call such people, who had dozens of more cats than she could really take care of -- their dirt boxes were filthy and they had to fight each other over the very little food that was given them. So it was that this one small tortoise-shell long hair accosted me out in front of my apartment and screamed at me for food. When I turned around, it ran away, but then as soon as I turned my back, out again it came. It wouldn't let me come, and it wouldn't let me go, but it certainly wanted food. So I got it food. Thus started our friendship, and eventually it was welcomed into my home. I kicked out a screen from one of the windows close by the limbs of a nearby tree, and she was able to come and go as she pleased. We'd sit together and read books or watch TV. Animal Control came and liberated all of the remaining cats from the Cat Lady... their idea of liberation being to take them all to the kennel where they would all be killed -- such is the Humanity displayed by Civil Bureaucratic Governments that deplore inefficient charities and solve such problems with murder.

Anyway, time went on and I got into a Relationship with this rather beautiful woman, at a time in my life when I was still to be tempted by such things. Well, when we first met, she simply loved cats... probably because I simply loved cats. But as she grew more and more certain of our committment, she discovered to me that she was, dispite her great love for the Things, allergic to cats and that if we were to move in together, I must give up my Cat. Well, I thought of all the ways I could provide for her, my cat, without allowing her anymore into my place. I even built her this little fully insulated and heated little dwelling so that she would have a place to go for when I became cold outside. But, I still kept the screen open since me and the lady had not moved in together quite yet.

But then our plans crystalized and we were going to both give up our small places and move into a larger house, and I would be leaving my kitty behind. This was not such an easy idea to get around and I found myself examining the possibility of simply killing her and tossing her into the dumpster -- a quick solution to the problem. OH MY GOD! With just the briefest admission to such a thought it was as though I had a panic attack. That outragious idea shocked me to the core of my being. How could I even contemplate such a thing!?

Earlier I had chased her out of my apartments with a broom, since my girlfriend was becoming more in the habit of dropping by and complaining of her difficulty in breathing. I was scolded for continuing to admit the Cat into the house. Well, when I realized how deeply my feelings subsisted for this cat, I began to wonder whether my feelings were really as equally strong toward my Lady Friend. I began to recall the instances of nagging and those episodes of sideways looks meant to rebuke me for this or that. I began to realize that this Girl Friend had been the nicest as she had been most uncertain of me, but now that she considered me 'hooked' I was becoming something of a pawn in her game. I realized that perhaps I was better off with the Cat then with the Girl. And so I went out and called and called ... offended cats need to be apologized to, sometimes to a very laborious extent... and eventually she came out of her hiding and agreed to come back home. I called the Girl and wished her luck in finding a roomate to help her with maintaining her new larger establishment.

I wish it had worked out better. I think my Ex-lady Friend came by and put out poison for my cat, as it got terribly sick and lingered and died just two months later. So I ended with no cat and no lady friend. But it was just as well. What kind of relationship could I have with a lady who would kill a cat for being a rival?

But the point of this all is that I found that I had a deep and powerful inhabition to committing violence. I recall a simular situation from when I was younger... when I was a child, in fact. I was out throwing stones and saw a rabbit and tossed a stone at it, and, much to my surprise, was horrified when I actually hit the poor thing. Again, it was like a panic attack. Instant remorse and concern for the poor creature.

I think more people then is supposed have strong inhabitions to violence. I suppose this is one of the reasons why the Military has to so strongly encourage and reward instances of manifest violence, because the men, on their own, would be reluctant to kill.

My Grandfather, who had received Awards for Valor in the First World War would speak bitterly of some instances of gratuitous violence, as he saw it, from the memoirs of that War. He told of how much of History conceals a great deal of the Truth, for instance, that Generals often have a great deal of communications with each other -- often communicating better with their opposing numbers than with their own officers. The White Flags would go back and forth all day and night long with all the soldiers instructed not to interfer with their passage. So it happens that the end of some Battles are arranged beforehand in order to minimize casualties and the expenses of War. So General 'Black Jack' Pershing thought it was a fine compromise if General Hindenburg would surrender a Battalion size Regiment every two hours while he retreated back to an agreed upon new line of defense, just at the German borders. So, in accordance with this deal, a Company Size Regiment (everybody lies a little bit... it is understood) would be stripped of its weapons, food, ammo... everything useful to the War Effort... and they would be instructed to wait in place for two hours and then wave the White Flag and surrender. And the Allied Troops were instructed to stand by for such surrenders.

But the American Soldiers themselves were not so civilized. Some climbed up upon hills and used their long hunting style rifles to murder men a half a mile away... men who would be surrendered in less than an hour. One of the greatest "heroes" of the First World War, Sergeant York, walked up to the German Trenches and gunned down the entire company of unarmed men, execution style. They had to make a 'Hero' out of him to preclude the real story getting out -- that battles were largely pre-arranged and that the war was mostly a Political Fiction that sometimes would get out of hand.

But the point here is that my Grandfather was very reticent about his own Awards for Valor, while being very vociferous in maintaining that other similar awards that had been given to others were tantamount to White-Washings for the most terrible atrocities and manifestations of Man's inhumanity against Man. Apparently the violence of the War had deeply traumatized him.

But this was all before the invention of the Video Game, which has largely erased any such inhabitions to violence from the Modern Psyche. Now, in Iraq, the American and British forces easily shoot up homes where somebody moves and blast away at cars full of little families because they crossed the painted line by a forbidden inch or two. You think that spilling all of this innocent blood would make the young men morally wince, but instead, they see it as collecting so many extra points and we down deep inside expect to eventually win a free game.

Hi everyone,

My first time in the lucid forum for a while. Feels great to be back! :)

When I first read what you wrote, I was intrigued to know who this Leo was and what was "interesting" about his thoughts. I indeed agree that his ideas were "interesting" to hear but I hope I’m not the only one to think that it is only one way of interpreting it. As you may have noticed, he’s the only one who starts his answer by :

"Your Greatest fear is… "

Leo, how can you honestly be so sure of yourself that what you said is true? You use a written “tone of voice” that implies that you are speaking the truth, nevertheless, I must admit that this doesn’t quite sound like a logical answer to me. A logical answer simply cannot accept the direct relationship between “The greatest fear in ones life” and “harm to one’s pet cat”.

Even if we would turn it in a more “logical” way, something like “Your Greatest fear is to be hurt by those you love” And the reason why you attack the cat is that you prefer to destroy what you believe can potentially hurt you, before they actually hurt you. Or since we attack what we fear and we fear what we don’t know, maybe you do not know or trust your cat? Lol.. There can be many ways of seeing this but it’s still playing with concepts, like intellectual masturbation, until we cum to an answer that seems to make sense in our lives (or an answer that gives us security or a sense of identity). :D (we cannot deny the intense pleasure of having finally “found” meaning to what has happened to us or what we dreamed, about, can we???) hehe!

This is why I think that if we do want to dwelve in the realm of dream interpretation, I think we have to have access to some vital parts of the dream that are important, and that were missing in O-nieronaut’s story. For example, if we were to interpret the relationship between O-nieronaut and his cat, we would need to know things like “What was the emotions of the cat while he was chasing him? What scared the cat in the first place? Did the cat seem to suffer while being cut in pieces? What was his “non-verbal” saying about how he was experiencing this situation?

It could also be useful for O-nieronaut to remember how he was feeling during those interactions in his dream. Because he could have had a violent and aggressive facial expression of someone taking pleasure in hurting the cat, or he could have had a scared and terrified facial expression of someone trying to protect himself (as we often attack what we fear that can hurt us), or it could have had a specific internal dialogue that we tell us something, or he could have also….

Well, you know where I’m getting at : we lack information to make a “good” interpretation. Even meta-content like how O-nieronaut felt about what he was feeling could exist, if the lucidity level was high enough. For example, he could have been violent and aggressive toward his cat and yet feel guilty about it while doing it. This would also give us a different interpretation of the whole thing.

This is why I think that Leo jumped to quick conclusions, having only a superficial description of an experience. We generally like to believe that symbols, people, things or events have meaning in themselves but they are always in relation to our own past history. And this relationship is most likely unique and specific. (This doesn’t not refute the concept of egregors of thought (or collective unconscious) where people from similar vibrational level or “wavelength” can unconsciously tap into a certain diversified collective accumulation of thoughts-forms).For example, if O-nieronaut would have been cut or hurt by a shovel or something sharp similar when he was 12 years old, it would affect the whole meaning behind the “shovel symbol”, totally unrelated with the “manual labor” meaning.

I even dare to say that interpreting dreams can, from my point of view, potentially be a very dangerous act. I mean dangerous in the sense that it can create a problem for someone, mislead someone, and in the worst cases potentially “hurt” someone. As an example of potentially hurting someone, we could use Leo’s sentence :

“it is not a totally rational fear, and if you had any sense you should fear for far worse...”

I mean, if someone happens to be a suggestible person, with a vivid imagination and low critical judgment, the suggestion that “if you were more clever, you should fear far worst!” is not constructive and would not lead to positive outcome in itself (even though the author meant it the other way around).

Subsequently, it can create a problem in that if someone is being told that he has the fear that his cat dies or be hurt, it can very well possibly create that fear in the person. Maybe the person had not thought about it before, but now, he or she not only has a fear that the cat dies, but now has to get rid of that fear, has to “resolve” it. Of course, it would not affect someone with an independent mind, but a “disciple” kind of mind-frame would most probably uncritically accept the interpretation and therefore cause more problem in his life, more problem then before he or she even had the dream.

This being said, I’m not against dream interpretation, I’m just saying that we have to be careful to make sure that the interpretation is closely related with the subject’s own subjective reality, not just uncontextually extracted from a “Dream interpretation” book.

Leo also wrote:

It shows a wonderful sense of imagination and drama to wish something like that upon yourself, but I hope you have learned your lessons there

I don’t know if it’s just me but… what is the lesson to be learned here? And how can that lesson be learned?

I hope that my words won’t be interpreted as presumptuous, as if I was right. I just wanted to offer people here the rational behind my opinions and I would greatly like feedback from anyone who sees thing differently.

Sincerely,
John

Dear Neoneironaut

Decades ago I had a dream in which my Guru told me that I should quit attempting to be an intellectual... that there were already a great many of them in the Spiritual Community, but what they were looking for in me was Decision and Action. As I recall, Bonaparte used to say the same thing about his officers -- that decision would always trump thought, and action have the advantage on deliberation. Later dreams taught me that what was truely to be valued most was the Faculty of True Discernment. I really think I've been given a gift. If you like I can tell you a dream I had of the Oracle Goddess who bestowed it.

So we have you advocating Uncertainty and an eternal diffidence as your ideals and highest held values. Excuse me if I am a bit demure regarding such materialist virtues. Ofcourse you can't believe that I can simply discern a Truth that has you all confused. It is a bit like Plato's allegory of the Cave, and you insist that if shadow are all that you can see, then shadows must be all that there is.

Also, I have noticed in the past that the people who tend to elaborate on my dream interpretations generally do that -- they elaborate -- they add a level of complexity that is not justifiable by the context of the Dream. It is my assumption that if the Dream intended to convey another layer of complexity, then it would have had some corresponding detail within the dream to warrant such additions to the simpler explanation. So you come out of nowhere with the hypothesis that our Dreamer is dreaming of killing the cat before it can kill him... but this is what happens when we have Thinkers Thinking instead of Perceivers Perceiving. Where was this sweet little kitty ever on the edge of being the least little threat?

Besides, you come out from your vacation and wonder at the fame of this Leo Character and at your first reading see nothing to justify it. But maybe you need to evaluate the anecdotal evidence. Why is it that this Leo has something of some minor reputation in dream interpretation? Think about it. Might it be that people see his interpretations as ringing true in their heart of hearts. But, yes, I know, the Materialist in you revolts at such easy surrender to what must seem to you only so much superstitious manipulation. If you had your way, everyone would be as confused and confusing as yourself.

Oh, by the way, I noticed your Flag... Beijing, was it? Anyway, as a note, my new hobby is learning Mandarin -- the Common Language as they say. Its a great deal of fun, but very laborious, and I fear I won't live long enough to read any of the good books in it.

Well, fear I doubt this is, to tell the truth. Yes, you asked for your greatest fear, but this doesn't seem like a dream purely meant to display to you what your fear is. I've had these odd kind of dreams before, not with pets, but family members. It always left me with bad feelings in my stomach, and when I would wake up, it would take me a long time to get out of bed, for I would have to sit and think about what just happened. Your fear must most likely directly involve death, but afar from that you are the only one who can really say what it means, if it means anything.

Quote:

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Originally posted by strifer
... but afar from that you are the only one who can really say what it means, if it means anything.

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Such "everyman is an island" nihilism, and the suggestion that all of life is meaningless is undoubtedly the core of modern Materialist Doctrine, but one needs to wonder about this great compulsion we see in so many people enthusiastically trying to spread such bleak Dogma. Is it something about Misery loving company? What comfort is there in placing these unsurmountable gulfs between each other. Why must it be some unshakeable principle that one man cannot know what is in another man's heart and mind. Is it not the same color blood that runs in our veins. Is it then not the same Life Force? Cannot love resolve in Understanding?

But let you Materialists have your dark and separate unknowable realities, but I do hope you do better with them then all of the despairing existentialists who could do nothing with such thinking but to use it as a weapon for their own suicides.

While these guys are getting really into depth about your dream, I'll give you my quick take.

Shovels: Generally used for digging.
Cat: A good friend of yours.

I would imagine your greatest fear could be having to "bury" or lose your best friend. I certainly know that's a fear of mine.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Leo Volont


Such \"everyman is an island\" nihilism, and the suggestion that all of life is meaningless is undoubtedly the core of modern Materialist Doctrine, but one needs to wonder about this great compulsion we see in so many people enthusiastically trying to spread such bleak Dogma. *Is it something about Misery loving company? *What comfort is there in placing these unsurmountable gulfs between each other. *Why must it be some unshakeable principle that one man cannot know what is in another man's heart and mind. *Is it not the same color blood that runs in our veins. *Is it then not the same Life Force? *Cannot love resolve in Understanding?

But let you Materialists have your dark and separate unknowable realities, but I do hope you do better with them then all of the despairing existentialists who could do nothing with such thinking but to use it as a weapon for their own suicides.

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There is a lot of truth in what you say, and you word it quite well, but I'm not as far down that path as you assume. I don't feel as though we leave in our own "dark and separate unknowable reality", psychology is one of biggest interests....I can make assumptions about people with very little information, and usually I'm right, only because experience and patterns have taught me. It's all about balance really, there is no rule governing every person on this planet, but there is a great deal of connection between us, and I believe we are all islands, but I also believe there are different connections between us we are discovering constantly. Though yes, often times I come off sounding too existential, which can be bad because a constant feeling of "in the long run we all die" will most likely kill me.

Well, thanks for the feedback guys. For the record, I appreciate every opinion, and agree with parts of each; there's no need to squable. Oh, and Neonieronaut, I think your impression of Leo is about the same as everyone's first, myself included. I've come to respect his conviction, though, even when I don't precisely agree with him.

After reading some of these posts, I realized an obvious possible related situation. My cat had four kittens several months ago, and I've been trying to find homes for them, but nobody wants kittens anymore. My landlord is not happy that I have kept them all for so long, and I am now obliged to take them to the humane society. I'm okay with that; they just adopted a "no kill" policy for donated pets, so I know they will find a home eventually. I do feel guilty, though, like I'm betraying them all, the mother included. I had managed to convince myself that I could care for them all, even if I don't get much sleep anymore, and they piss me off all the time, and destroy my belongings. I still love them, and it sucks that I have to put them in a cage, even temporarily. I feel like every look from them, and their mother, will be accusatory, or hurt and confused for some time.

I still don't think that these things constitute my greatest fear, though, and I was so sure I would have the opportunity to confront such a fear in a LD by asking for it. I think this is why I put this thread here and not in dream interpretation. I want to start confronting my BIG fears. I want the crap scared out of me so I can get on with living a more constructive life. I might be impatient, but that's what I want, damnit. Like I said, I do appreciate the analyses, but does anyone have any suggestions for more successfuly conjuring up deep rooted fears to face? I'm sure it must be possible, and it must be less cryptic than my cat dream.

Dear Leo,

I’m tempted to reply that you should’ve listened to your guru! :wink: But then I won’t say it because you probably don’t consider your long post as a creation of your intellect! :lol:

Honestly speaking, and with all do respect, I tend not to give too much credential to someone who insist to be perceived as a speaker of truth, who cares to “prove” that he or she has been given a gift by this God or that Goddess in a dream. From my experience, those who really have a gift or are wiser in some ways don’t try to defend or prove themselves the way you did. They don't try to validate their credibility by explaining that in previous dream experiences involving Gods, they received gifts or missions or whatever...

Concerning your reply, you said that :

“(…) we have you advocating Uncertainty and an eternal diffidence as your ideals and highest held values.”

Did you come up with this generalization using your so-called faculty of “True Discernment”? :wink: The least you could do is to explain what led you to this conclusion. And it’s the same “problem” throughout your email. To be honest, I have trouble following what you are saying about me because it’s very disconnected with the words I actually used. It would have helped me to understand if you’d had cut and pasted my statements and commented underneath. This way, I would have known where you drew your conclusions from. I don’t even know what the heck I said that could be related to “materialistic virtues”.

Let’s continue :wink: , Leo said :

“Of course you can't believe that I can simply discern a Truth that has you all confused. It is a bit like Plato's allegory of the Cave, and you insist that if shadow are all that you can see, then shadows must be all that there is.“

You are right about that one, I don’t believe you discerned a Truth (which of course does not mean that you haven’t). Might I add that we could use the allegory of the cave to illustrate your own behavior as well.? :o)

Leo also said:

”I have noticed in the past that the people who tend to elaborate on my dream interpretations generally do that -- they elaborate -- they add a level of complexity that is not justifiable by the context of the Dream. “

I actually didn’t elaborate on your dream interpretation, I just criticized it as being too simplistic. I didn’t “add” a level of complexity, I just pointed out that the dream WAS in actuality more complex and elaborated than what O-nieronaut open-mindedly shared with us. I mean, one cannot deny that the short description he provided us was only the surface of it. If you are a lucid dreamer yourself, you are aware that we cannot describe the fullness of one’s experience in only 10 lines. There is a lot that ACTUALLY happens in the dream, even if we don’t recall everything. (And it’s not because we forget something about the dream that it suddenly doesn’t matter in the dream interpretation.)

This is why I was saying that the “sample” was too small to dare claiming to make a serious and definitive interpretation about it. Just the fact that O-nieronaut pointed out later that his cat had kitten and that he felt guilty about giving them away refers to the complexity I’m talking about. This event is potentially linked with his dream.

Interpreting a dream independently of someone’s personal history is from my humble point of view a very limited way of interpreting dreams. I’m thereby not advocating uncertainty in the sense that we can never know the truth, I’m more suggesting that we should learn to deal with uncertainty when it arises. That if for some reasons, lack of information or if we don’t know or don’t have enough info to make a decision, it’s better to deal with that fact. Like Sartre said (and I’m not an Existentialist in case you would “accuse” me of being one  ), “Very few people can deal with the fact that they do not know”. And I find that it’s true. As soon as we don’t make sense of what happens to us, we usually grab the first interpretation that comes in our mind to get the feeling that we understand what is happening to us. But what we sometimes fail to see is that in that very interpretation of reality lies a set of beliefs that can limit ourselves. So maybe it would be wise to be careful of what we choose to believe in.

Leo said:

“Besides, you come out from your vacation and wonder at the fame of this Leo Character and at your first reading see nothing to justify it. But maybe you need to evaluate the anecdotal evidence. Why is it that this Leo has something of some minor reputation in dream interpretation? Think about it. Might it be that people see his interpretations as ringing true in their heart of hearts. “

I’m sorry Leo, I don’t give credit to someone just because other people give him credits. I know that’s what you’d like and the fact that you even mention it to support your credibility doesn’t help your cause either. It’s like a guru saying : “Listen, don’t you see all these guys following me? It must mean that I’m right, right?” Well, actually, no! :wink: ; And especially not when someone who uses this as an argument to validate his credibility.

Btw, I’m not extending my judgment to people who like Leo’s interpretations and I’m not saying that he is “wrong”. I just wanted to bring some nuances that I thought were important. It seemed too “black or white” to me, leaving aside a whole array of different potential greys…

Leo said :

“But, yes, I know, the Materialist in you revolts at such easy surrender to what must seem to you only so much superstitious manipulation”

Here’s the “materialist” thing coming up again… If anyone knows why Leo sees me as a materialist, please feel free to share your wisdom with me, as I don’t make the connection with what I previously wrote. In anyways, I don’t consider what you said as superstitious manipulation. It was, as I said earlier, just a simplistic interpretation that I wanted to point out.

And Leo finally ended up with a charming:

“If you had your way, everyone would be as confused and confusing as yourself”

Did I sound like I was confused? Or did my words confused you? Hehe, in any ways, you are right that I’m often confused. The more I invite critical thinking and self-awareness in my life, the more I discover that I actually know very little, that I held many beliefs just out of insecurity. And that does bring confusion. So yes, it also happens sometimes that my words confuse people, because they sometimes get to see things in a different way, a way that also makes sense but yet, they have trouble integrating it. It just doesn’t seem to fit with their belief system and they are right, it challenges their belief system. So what is the reaction when our belief system is challenged? We usually flush it out ASAP to recover a sense of equilibrium, unless we can deal with the uncertainty and confusion, to eventually come out with a more flexible and complex view of the world....


Apologies

I apologize for everyone for such a long message. I also apologize for being so clumsy at expressing my ideas in a non-threatening peaceful way. It’s obvious that I will fail in having a constructive and positive impact on Leo because I was way too “aggressive” in the way I expressed myself. So I think I kinda wrote this big msg for nothing… … Anyway, my point was NOT to attack his credibility because I don’t even know the guy, I didn’t even read any other post that he wrote, which can be good in a way because I didn’t have any previous preconceptions of him. This being said, if anyone has any feedback, personal or in group, please feel free to share with me.
John :)

I tend to agree with many of the points you make Neoneironaut. Thats not to say Leo is or isn't wrong about what he is saying, the plain truth is that no one can know the plain truth in all of its subtleties and nuances. I think mostly Leo has a knack for vocabulary and a way with words that does resonate with people, but to read his explanation is to get the feeling he is a bit full of himself as well. Also, just because many people trust in him, doesn't mean he has all the answers - lets take for example Hitler (I am NOT comparing Leo to Hitler, just bringing up an example). I think, ultimately, dreams are no one's province but that of the dreamer. It is up to each of us to interpret our dreams in a way that feels right for each of us. Leo, and anybody else for that matter, know less than .00001% of anyone else's thoughts & lives & dreams & hopes & fears, and dreams take all of these into account too (plus a whole lot more, much of which we can't even begin yet to understand). To let Leo have the power to give some sweeping generalization about what certain plots or themes or symbols mean is to give up your own path in life. Also, Leo's interpretations really give you more insight into his inner world than yours. I whole-heartedly believe that each of us has the responsiblity to explore our own dreams and find each of our own truths within them. If Leo makes you wonder about your dreams more than you had before, great!. That would be a much better thing than giving him the power to close the book once and for all on some mysterious dream you had..

Also, another reason he has a lot of followers is really because he is offering a definitive interpretation. Unfortunately, as was stated before, humans are scared of chaos and insecurity, and are drawn to someone offering answers (there are so many examples of this politically, socially, etc that to turn on the boob tube for one minute gives you all the proof you need). I mean go ahead and be drawn to him cause he is offering solid ground on which to stand, but just remember that there is no solid ground, just mostly "empty" space.

Anyway, I meant no disrespect for Leo, .. I respect most people who have the courage to take responsiblity for and to explore their own dream worlds.. :)

so you dont know your biggest fear? after all these years, I know what it is. I guess I wil be a sport and indulge you. you are scarred that you will finaly find all that you have been searching for, because you know when this happens, you will be left to your own devices. and ultimitly become board. your mind works so much, that if it had nothing to proccess, you would go total bonkers. thats just what i think, I could be wrong. Im not, but i could be.

oh and about your cats,dont worry so much. what you are feeling is natural, you have had the kittens for what like 6 months now? now you know how hard it was for your parents when they had to let life adopt you.

Dear Leo and neoneironaut

go write a book together!

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Originally posted by scorpifly
now you know how hard it was for your parents *when they had to let life adopt you.

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Damn. I need to start visiting my parents more often.

Quote:

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Originally posted by CryoDragoon
Dear Leo and neoneironaut

go write a book together!

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I've read some of what neoneironaut had written, and, yes, perhaps he would be qualified and capable of spell checking my work, but don't they have programs that do that nowadays.

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Originally posted by Leo Volont


I've read some of what neoneironaut had written, and, yes, perhaps he would be qualified and capable of spell checking my work, but don't they have programs that do that nowadays.

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English not being my native language, I think Leo would be far better off with a spell-checking program! hehe! :D :D