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    Thread: No Such Thing As An Original Thought?

    1. #26
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      IMO, all thoughts come from previous experiences, what one sees around them, etc. I don't think there's such thing as an original thought.

    2. #27
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      You can have an original thought - but i cannot be communicated as such

      You can absolutely have an original thought, but there would be no way of explaining an original thought to others unless it was expressed as the combination of others ideas that already exist in the common stock of societies knowledge. Hence, thoughts cannot enter the social stock of knowledge without first being decribed in terms of other thoughts. For example, Lets say that a person, Bill, has a completely original thought that is unrelated in any way to existing thoughts. How would Bill tell his friend, Sally, about this if not in terms of other thoughts that where in the domain of some collectively shared, pre-existant, knowledge? There would be no way to transmit this idea to Sally, and thus no way for this idea to enter the common stock of knowledge unless it where communicated as some sort of combination of already existing ideas. To go a bit further, even Bill must think of his thought as being the product of pre-existing thoughts. Hence, the original thought is modified in a dialectic fashion into a mere combination of existing thoughts, even in Bills own mind. For example:

      Lets say in Bill and Sally's universe there are no canoes. No one has ever seen a canoe or heard of a canoe.

      Bill conceives of the idea of a canoe - Bill remembers the idea interms of the combination of several existing ideas - i.e. Log, hollow, float, Bill communicates idea to Sally. Sally concieves of a new idea for a metal canoe - iron + canoe = boat

      In this fashion, new ideas are communicated to society and become part of societies stock of knowledge where they are then available to be combined to describe other new ideas. This is evident in the structure of language (words are comprised of several roots as anyone who as studied etymology can attest to ) as well- something which I think is self evident & I don't really have the energy to explain in this post.


      Forgive my grammer & spelling erros - I am above both of them

    3. #28
      Xei
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      But clearly that process must have a bedrock. What are these thoughts, and how do they emerge and spread?

      The example you gave seems pretty clearly equivalent to the idea of a canoe, rather than a dialectic reduction. Is there truly such a thing as an original thought 'unrelated in any way to existing thoughts'? It's hard to see how a thought can have meaning without reference to others.

      Do you have any thoughts on the mechanism by which original thoughts emerge?

      Welcome to DV.

    4. #29
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      I guess they can't be completely original because we can only extract the contents of thoughts from our experience of reality and imagination, but those contents can be connected in surprisingly original and beneficial ways. Although, I do have a feeling virtually completely original thoughts are possible, even if they do have to stem from previous thoughts.

    5. #30
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      I suspect that many of my dreams are original thoughts. While not all the elements in the dream are native to only my experience it's the combination of visuals and elements that make them original.

      Think of it in the same way that every single human on the planet is unique and no two are exactly alike. Sure, we all have carbon and oxygen in us, we all bleed red and we all eat and poop but that doesn't cause each of us to be unoriginal.

      Thoughts are the same.

    6. #31
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      All thoughts are 100% original, even if they're the exact same words and in the exact same order as a predecessor. The universe is being born in the moment, and everything in the moment remains completely unique. It's only when we interpret things by comparing them to others and categorizing them that they become unoriginal, but the unoriginality is merely a construction of the mind, the actual thought/object remains unique.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    7. #32
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      OP, what you're saying is as true as it is irrelevant to the conversation. The conversation is taking place within and with reference to the dualistic nature of linquistic thought. By stepping beyond that, you're essentially short circuiting the conversation and hence ignoring the interesting ideas that could come out of it.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    8. #33
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      While you are borrowing previously created words in order to formulate opinions, this doesn't mean the opinion is unoriginal. That's like saying there's no such thing as an original snowflake. While the variations are subtle, and often vary so subtly the words are all the same, intention is something unique to each human being in each situation. To believe the thought is anything less than completely unique and irreplaceable simply because it borrows a previously created code for proper communication is like saying you don't own a painting because paint was invented already.
      Last edited by Original Poster; 08-02-2012 at 08:52 PM.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    9. #34
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Out of curiosity, do you have any idea what the words you're saying mean? If so perhaps you could explain how they pertain to the conversation.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    10. #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by ElsiaStar View Post
      sorry if this seems a little confusing...

      If you think about it... there is really no such thing as an "original thought."

      It's impossible to think of a completely new thought that doesn't in any way relate to any thought/idea/thing that has been thought of before.

      There are so many things that we can't even think about because we can't even imagine them because no one had ever thought of them before. It's impossible to think of something completely new. For example, someone might think of a flying car. That's not a new idea because we already have cars and airplanes. Nothing is a NEW thought, technically.

      It seems impossible to think of something completely new because we can't wrap our heads around anything that we can't even imagine. We can only think about things that we know about.

      Even the guy who came up with the idea of making the first car didn't have an original idea because a car is made from resources from our planet Earth. I'm talking about a COMPLETELY original idea/thought that doesn't relate to our planet or anything that already exists.


      I don't know.. I just found this to be interesting.
      I was responding to this. Does that help you?

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    11. #36
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Original Poster View Post
      I was responding to this. Does that help you?
      Never mind about the "you're getting smarter". Do I seem less condescending now?
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    12. #37
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      Considering you just successfully earned yourself the first ever membership on my ignore list, no.
      PhilosopherStoned likes this.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    13. #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      But clearly that process must have a bedrock. What are these thoughts, and how do they emerge and spread?

      The example you gave seems pretty clearly equivalent to the idea of a canoe, rather than a dialectic reduction. Is there truly such a thing as an original thought 'unrelated in any way to existing thoughts'? It's hard to see how a thought can have meaning without reference to others.

      Do you have any thoughts on the mechanism by which original thoughts emerge?

      Welcome to DV.

      Xei I think you raise a very good point. In my previous post, my intention was to describe the differences between different types of thoughts as well as the way in which they are transmitted between individuals and society. For the purposes of this conversation I think there would be perhaps 2 different kinds of thought. the first we can call subjective thought and the second objective thought. here is a description of those kinds of thoughts as I see them

      1) Subjective thoughts (Aka individual thoughts- these are original thoughts) - These are unique and original thought objects that are had / experienced by all individuals that are created via sensual perception. These are the building blocks for more complex thoughts, Examples could include: a granite stone, a blueberry, a mountain stream, a black bear, a warm breeze, (objective thoughts as experienced by the individual would also be included in this catagory as they are viewed through a unique and subjective lens by individuals). What makes subjective thoughts unique is the detail that surrounds them in the mind if the individual. Individuals do not simply think about a given object, they interperate that object in a unique way based on their unique past experiences and also the subjective nature of sensory experience itself (there is a large body of research supporting the subjectivity of sensory experience for those that are interest) . These interpretations are unique and original for everyone and are rich with emotional content in many cases. subjective thoughts can never be fully described by language. The example below illustrates only part of the difference between subjective / objective thoughts.

      For example, to an individual a blue berry is not just a blue berry. A blue berry is the delicious refreshing snack that they on one memorable occasion during childhood when they hiked through the Alaskan wilderness past a granite filled mountain stream where there was a summer breeze and they saw a black bear. For another individual a blueberry is something that is tasty when baked in a muffin and they sometimes by one on their way to work before hopping on the subway.


      2) Objective thoughts: These are subjective thoughts that have been stripped of their subjective detail. Thus objective thoughts (generic, unoriginal thoughts) are comprised of stripped down subjective thoughts (which are quite original and unique and incapable of being communicated to others). language systems enable these to become quite complex.

      Your mention of bed rock thoughts is a good point too. I believe what you are asking is tantamount to how languages develop. I think someone with a background could do a better job describing that process. But i imagine begins with extremely simple forms of communication used to convey very basic, possibly apriori ideas (pain, pleasure and their derivatives) food, shelter, basic commands, domination / submission. The kinds of things that many animals, including humans, are capable of communicating. The combination of these base ideas enables more complex ideas and the combination of those ideas enables even more complex ideas and so on. maybe something like that?

      What do others think?

    14. #39
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      Quote Originally Posted by ElsiaStar View Post
      If you think about it... there is really no such thing as an "original thought."
      A number of years ago, can't seem to recall when, I came to a realization that I have never had an original thought. What's up with that? As I looked around, I couldn't seem to find any one else that has either. I'm not that well read nor an historian by any stretch, but this absent ability seems to go way back through history in all civilizations. What I do know is this;
      We used to have freedom but the surveillance state is corralling everyone into a prison planet.
      We used to have liberty but everyone is being taxed into servitude.
      We've been taught we have free will but when a choice becomes actionable, it is based on our knowledge, emotion and perception of the environment around us.

      I also understand we are all connected spiritually to each other and to this universe we exist in. Few people know this and seek more enlightenment while most ignore their spiritual connection and the rest condemn seekers in one way or another for whatever agenda they align themselves to.

      There exists beings with telepathic abilities so powerful they can make you not see what is around you and/or make you see things that are not there at all. They can stop you from hearing what is being said to you and/or make you hear anything they choose. The only way to defend an attack on your mind in this manner is to be grounded in your perception of what is physical and what is spiritual and the state of your knowledge and awareness limits your perception. Beyond this, tools and methods have been developed and employed to entrain anyone's brain for manipulating emotions as well as implanting messages. Becoming sensitive and avoiding these tools and methods is the only defense.

      When someone conceives an idea worth exploring, then realizes they do not have the words to express it, sketching the idea on whatever canvas is available is the next logical method of communication. I earnestly desired to uncover why I never had and cannot seem to produce an original thought and my curiosity has led me here that I may post what I found thus far?

      Ecclesiastes reached the assessment that 'All is vanity and there is nothing new under the sun.' which is stating the topic of this thread - that there is no such thing as an original thought. Humm. The Gospel from the apostle John starts with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with GOD." That is the only accurate expression depicting original thought I am aware of. I also found the only method publicly known to effectively interact with that GOD and possibly experience an original thought with/through IT is to exercise and emulate the teachings of Jesus Christ which most anyone can do, and His teachings do not harm children or incite them to do harm as opposed to the curriculum in many classrooms today.

      So, how far are you willing to venture to experience and communicate an original thought? Your choices are not an act of free will but are a proclamation of your very being. Having to make a choice between life or death is not free will and nearly every choice we make will ultimately lead to a life or death outcome. Jesus Christ did not have any free will during his life. Neither do we.

      I am seeking any suggestion that will aid me in my journey to accomplish an original thought (besides ingesting ayahuasca but that is on my bucket list). Posts before mine appear superficial to me except #30. I believe it will be through a dream one will occur and I hope that with the information and techniques to experience a WILD learned here, this engagement will yield something worth sharing.

      I think. Therefore, I am. Anyone needing an explanation to any statement in my post, please do the research - the truth is out there. Thank you in advance.

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