I agree that we have free will, and that good and evil are subjective. I just couldn't follow your reasons. Maybe I'm just sleep deprived. |
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I was arguing with a friend about free will and about what is good. (My friend does not believe in free will or any kind of non subjective good) |
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Last edited by Fernanvic; 12-29-2010 at 08:37 PM.
I agree that we have free will, and that good and evil are subjective. I just couldn't follow your reasons. Maybe I'm just sleep deprived. |
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"The human race will begin solving its problems on the day that it ceases taking itself so seriously."
--Malaclypse the Younger
: ) ( :
Yeah, i've got to think about how to rewrite this to make it somewhat comprehensible |
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I find free will to be a logical impossibility, for reasons which I may explain later when I'm not so tired. but briefly, A cannot cause A. It must be caused by something else. And if causation is out of the picture, then as you said, behaviour is random and choice redundant. also absolute moral obligation is illogical. the main arguments for that are the euthyphro dilemma and the absence of 'freedom' from external factors. the only way that free will could be possible is if logic did not pertain to truth. but that would be a weird sort of life eh? |
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Reality Check
Spoiler for lucid dream goals:
Free will is the balance to destiny. |
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Even if the universe would be completely deterministic, would follow rules so that if someone could see those rules and understand them there would be no surprise it still doesn't mean that there is no free will. Free will is only a perception of a choice. There is never something called free will. If you want a cookie you are tempted by factors, so your will is influenced and therefore not totally free anymore. Same thing for more difficult choices in life. Free means no bonds whatsoever and therefore might totally free will not exists but we have a perception of free will that I'm glad to live by. |
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Couldn't agree more. Free will by its literal definition is impossible but the perception is still there. |
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Are human actions magical? Does math lie? Can we do things unaffected by variables or the rest of the universe? Is human thought a mystic thing or does it have physical properties linked to the brain? |
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Paul is Dead
Definitely not. I believe there is no 100% free will, simply because we're influenced by the factors around us. Even if our brains would make a decision that would be different from an identical twin, with an identical life etc we definitely can make another choice. But choosing something / deciding something is not the same as free will. At least it will never be pure free will. |
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Lol I have free will, I can do whatever I want, I don't understand the whole argument against free will. To me it's like saying you cannot choose whether right now you hit yourself on the had, or you don't. Yes you can choose. If you can't choose, then they call this a mental disorder. They call it obsessive compulsive disorder. What kind of bullshit is this anyway? |
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"Reject common sense to make the impossible possible." -Kamina
Good argumentation. But here is my counter: If you want a cookie your behavior is indeed influenced by factors, but these factors are exactly things like "I like cookies" or "I don't mind getting fat" and liking cookies, is your free will, not minding getting fat, is your free will. These factors you talk about are defined by your free will. So the fact you would make the same decision each time, is not an argument against free will, it is an argument pro free will. It is exactly because you would make the same decisions each time, that this is proof, that the decisions is based on your will, and your will alone. That is free will. The factors you talk about which influence the cookie eating, are factors which are determined by your will in the first place. |
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"Reject common sense to make the impossible possible." -Kamina
Can you give me a reason for that? For example, I don't mind getting fat. Why do you think so much people are against those tiny models? Exactly, because our will is influenced by them. You cannot live your life without being influenced by something outside of yourself. For example your taste of music. You like your own music, have some artist no-one else around you listens, but i'm almost sure if you listen a lot of music with friends your tastes overlap. And in time they will start to overlap more and more. That's not just me talking, it's a proven fact. |
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We are indeed influenced by the world around us, I get that point, that is why you argue that free will is an illusion. But we have the free will to choose how to handle this influence. That is my point. There is not only the outside world, there is also the inside world. But then again, this inside world is again influenced by the outside world which would be an argument that we have no free will. But this influence, again, is influenced by the inside world. It is your free will how to handle the influence. Then again you can argue, that how you handle this influence, is influenced by the outer world. Then again, I can argue, that this influence of the outer world, on the influence on how the handle the influence, is again influenced by the inner world. So we can keep going back and forth like this ad infinitum, and maybe this doubt on which is the cause and which is the effect is what leads to free will. |
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"Reject common sense to make the impossible possible." -Kamina
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