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but the funny thing is, it is usually true. One person can not change the world. Yes, I know that many people "can" but then that goes back to Bob who doesn't even give a shit what I buy anywaysQuote:
Originally Posted by no-Name
no actually Bob hosts a barbecue every week, regardless if I buy a lunchable,soup or lays potato chips.Quote:
Originally Posted by MindGames
It disrupts the flow of life, and screws up the balanceQuote:
Originally Posted by erible
then don't give them your money, and don't support them. you are where 'they' are getting the money from.Quote:
Originally Posted by erible
still flawed reasoning. having 3 steaks is less than the 4th steak you would have bought. boom. world changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by erible
fantastic.Quote:
Originally Posted by erible
I'm not. I buy organic, local, not harmonically enhanced cows milk.Quote:
Originally Posted by no-Name
and any time I eat meat, I don't personally buy it, if I am with someone who is eating burgers, then I will have one, but I am not personally purchasing the item (just to get technical here)
actually, no, world not changed. Me not buying a steak, does not directly affect a 30 year old man who lives with his daughter in Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by no-Name
are you being sarcastic?Quote:
Originally Posted by no-Name
Yes, you should eat me, come to my house and get snackin!
Erible, the point here is not that you will change the world by not eating meat. The point is that you will spare more animal lives, and therefore cause less suffering, by not eating meat.
If you don't understand that concept, just ask then I'll break it down even further for you.
I do understand that is what you are saying, and yes, it is true-but it won't be a significant change.
But still a change nonetheless, and i don't even eat that much meat to begin with
It's a certainly significant change to the animals that would have otherwise been raised and slaughtered.
Anyway, I still eat meat, and I'm not trying to change what you do. It's perfectly natural to eat other animals; just let it be known that it is immoral if you have the option of eating fruits and vegetables instead.
but the thing is, if one person stops eating meat the animal would still be slaughtered for someone else :/
You do? I assumed you were a vegetarian. I do believe it is immoral but there are plenty other things that are more immoral
Yes, all animals that are alive right now for the production of meat will be slaughtered. But when they send that meat off to grocery stores, and the grocery stores report less meat sales, the people who raise the animals to be slaughtered will notice this and lower the quota for the amount of meat they will have to produce in the future. This means that only in the future will animal lives be spared.Quote:
Originally Posted by erible
I would like to eat more fruits and vegetables in place of the meat I eat, but that's currently not an option. I don't think I'll ever completely give up meat; I'll probably end up becoming a pescetarian (fish + fruits & veggies) when I get the chance. :) Eating fish has been shown to improve brain health.Quote:
Originally Posted by erible
not even close. I'm happy about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by erible
Also, I don't believe this is a valid excuse. Of course there are other more immoral things occurring, and there always will be, but that doesn't give anybody an excuse to continue the immorality that they cause that is reasonably in their own control. Especially when their immorality is causing the death and suffering of other sentient organisms.Quote:
Originally Posted by erible
Like I said, though, although there is no excuse for eating meat I'm not going to hold it against people who do so because many believe that is completely natural to eat other animals. From a natural standpoint it is completely fine to eat meat, but our capacity to recognize this and easily switch to a vegetarian diet does make it immoral.
good :)Quote:
Originally Posted by no-Name
I catch what you are saying now.Quote:
Originally Posted by MindGames
and yeah, I don't think I have to willpower to stop eating meat completely, and as I said before I just cannot eat fish or any sea food D: but I do eat vegetarian food sometimes, there is this stuff called "buffalo wings" http://pix.sustainlane.com/l/d/u/h/P/b.jpeg and they are vegetarian and actually taste pretty good :)
and I am not using the fact that there are more immoral things as an excuse, I am just stating it, what about war, etc.
Well then what bob buys is not related to what you but so by you not buying steak one less steak is bought. It might not seem a lot on a weekly basis, but if you add up the number of steaks the 7 million vegetarians(not sure if this is an accurate number, just got it off a random website, but this is for just the US) would have eaten in their lifetime, it's a really big number. If they were to eat only one steak a month and lived on average to be only 60 that would be over 5 billion steaks.Quote:
Originally Posted by erible
EDIT:f--- howd I miss all the posts under this one?
I really wish I could have gotten into this discussion at the beginning; it is very pertinent to my life right now and I've been doing a fair amount of research. I haven't read all 11 pages so I won't address any arguments directly, but I will describe my personal take on things.
(I'm going to say things as if they are fact, I hope you are able to realize that I am only stating my personal beliefs)
There is no moral difference between eating meat and eating plants, as far as sentience and suffering is concerned. We think that mammals suffer more than other animals, we think that animals suffer but plants do not, this is all just a matter of what you identify with. Is it any wonder that the amount that we care about something else's well being is directly proportional to how much that thing resembles ourselves? You cannot go through life making choices based on 'will this thing suffer if I eat it to live?' Every aspect of life is about something dying so that something else can live; life feeds on life, and (to quote Tool) this is necessary.
Having said that, eating meat does cause more things to suffer than eating plants. When you eat meat, that animal had to eat more plants than you would have if you had just eaten the plants from the get go. I don't think there is anything strictly morally wrong with eating meat but it does increase the number of other things that will have to suffer in order for you to live. When it comes right down to it though it is a moot point because everything dies anyway, and becomes something else regardless of whether or not I eat it or the microbes do.
What is morally wrong is the meat industry. Not only all of the things that Alex's post described but also the clear cutting of rainforests for animal grazing in places like Brazil and the over fishing of the oceans which are causing entire species of fish to become extinct, as well as many other reasons that I could mention.
I recently made the decision to only eat free range meat and dairy. Unfortunately I found out that unless I actually visit the farms where my food is produced (something that I will be doing) this is basically a meaningless gesture. The rules for labeling something free range set by the USDA state only that the animal must have access to the outside. There are no regulations on how big a space they can have or how much time they can have access. An animal that spends most of its life in a small cage like the ones described in the OP but is allowed 30 minutes in a small fenced in dirt patch is a free range animal according to the USDA. Based on this information I will most likely be almost entirely vegan (once I finish my diet research) except for whatever eggs or dairy or meat that I can find from a local farm that I can personally visit and see how their animals are treated.
To anyone saying that it doesn't make a difference because the animal will be slaughtered for someone else anyway does not understand the processes of supply and demand. Obviously the less people that demand a product (even if it is only one less) the less the producers of that product are going to supply. This is just how the world works. You vote with your actions. If your morals do not agree with the meat industry but you still support it, you are a hypocrite. I finally decided to stop being a hypocrite, and would encourage others to do so as well. (same reason why I stopped using corporate banks and switched over to a credit union, but that is a different discussion entirely)
What do you think the suffering of a plant is like? Slatyseadog said the same thing. I assume that plants have some kind of an experience of pain but I don't thinks its the same as a human or animals because we have brains. Are plants even conscious in the same way, I honestly don't know and have always assumed they aren't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaqaria
We can also eat fruit from trees without the tree dying or suffering at all, at least I assume it doesn't suffer. In most cases something has to die, but in my opinion it's not death that makes it immoral but the suffering inflicted. Saying that it's immoral might even be a little misleading, it's just a matter of causing as little suffering as you can, making less of a negative impact.
On an unrelated note, this guy at my school saw me dream journalling and asked me what I was doing. I told him, then when he asked me why I told him I did it so I could LD and told him about LDs. He asked me "what is that some kind of vegetarian shit?", cracked me up. He was totally blown away, apparently he's never met anyone who at all interested in dreams.
You Plant Nazi! For shame. Your coleslaw is representative of a fascist regime.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
ewww coleslaw.....
alright well now this thread has got me thinking-I am going to make a good conscious effort on cutting back eating meat. I actually just had a vegetarian dinner, I don't think I can become a vegetarian yet but I'm still gonna cut down on meat :) it is a start right
also has anyone here seen the movie "food inc" I saw it about 2 weeks ago and I literally could not finish watching it...
Erible's post is proof enough that one person (in this case Alextanium) can indeed make a difference.
I don't agree that plants can suffer. Our bodies are physically programmed to feel pain, and it's the pain which we suffer from. We have millions upon millions of nerves which are used to send pain signals to the brain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaqaria
We can't even be sure of the remote possibility that plants are conscious. Many scientists think consciousness only exists in the brain. I understand that plants may have a different type of nervous system, if at all, but to assert that plants actually have a type of plant brain that physically allows them to be conscious is in my opinion pretty absurd.
To put it simply, even if plants are conscious, which is highly unlikely, they aren't equipped with the necessary biological systems to feel pain.
I can't even begin to imagine what the qualia of a plant's feelings are but here is a link to a good page that outlines all of the research that has been done on the subject that leads me (and many others) to conclude that they do in fact 'feel' in some way.
Yeah, like I'm going to read an article on a website crammed with conspiracy theories and aliens on the homepage. How is that in any way a 'good page'?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaqaria