Thread: Life after death... by scripture

The worst thing you can do is blindly take the word of someone else as the truth.

Maybe there's a heaven, maybe there isn't. You need to figure it out for yourself, not just listen to whatever your Dad or anyone else says.

Um no.....well it depends on your religious beliefs...but i 2 believe in the bible...& that doesn't make any sense. In the pre existence we come 2 earth recieve a body & remember nothing of our past....maybe that is what he is getting confused on...but after death our souls go 2 the 3 kingdoms of heaven...& after judgement we receive our bodies back in perfect formation...remembering the past btw

I don't remember ANY of that being taught or explained in the Bible. "Pre-existence," 3 kingdoms, and other teachings are from EXTRA-BIBICAL literature that is taught by the LDS (Mormon) church.

Whether you're atheist, existentialist, humanist, Hindu, Christian, etc. we all borrow our ideas and form our world-views based on what has already been established in the past. So to say we should not believe what someone else has told us is horse... feathers. We ALL do this. I DO agree that we should never simply swallow anyone else's teachings, doctrines, ideas, etc. but instead arrive at our own individual conclusions and beliefs through ample study, critical thinking, and desire for wisdom. Problem is to know the wisdom of God, one must first acknowledge that HE IS.

The Bible does talk about heaven being perfect and therefore any memory or thought of SIN or transgression against God's laws (moral or otherwise) will simply no longer exist. Not sure how that works into our memories though. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Any religion or other following/belief which tries to explain an afterlife as a concrete event is trying to sell you a load of unprovable dogma. This applies to this current "reality" as well but I won't get into that. What we do after death is our choice, Consciousness operates on all frequencies and is impervious to the death of the physical existence. There is no such thing as "death" of consciousness. The concept does not exist. There is an infinite range of dimensions beyond the frequency spectrum accessible by the physical senses, and we become One with all of this when we die, just as long as we don't get completely sucked into an image of what the afterlife will be like, and believe it to be the only possibility.

Put it this way, our life, and whatever comes subsequently, is like a dream. It *IS* a dream, in fact. If we let the dream go on and lead us, we will continue to deny the greater part of the mind which is the Creator, and our destiny will be controlled by fate - that is, by what we were taught here. If we take control and understand that what we are seeing is manifested from our own subconscious, then we've snapped into a lucid dream and we can do anything. The rules of this reality are only the ones we create and accept for ourselves. A mind won't rebel if it doesn't know it isn't free.

Originally posted by evangel
I don't remember ANY of that being taught or explained in the Bible. \"Pre-existence,\" 3 kingdoms, and other teachings are from EXTRA-BIBICAL literature that is taught by the LDS (Mormon) church.

Try 1st Corinthians buddy - first off ressurection is proven (as in continuing life in the body after death) in chapter 15 verses 20-22
"But now is Christ risen from the dead and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death by came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

As for the three kingdoms alost proven in 1st Corinthians - Chapter 15 verses 40 - 42
"There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the ressurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption ; it is raised in incorruption."
(Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestrial being three kingdoms - or sun, moon, stars acting as metophers)

Now i can't remember what else u said u never read or heard of in the bible...but i promise u i can prove it is there.

Originally posted by Awaken
Any religion or other following/belief which tries to explain an afterlife as a concrete event is trying to sell you a load of unprovable dogma. ... There is no such thing as \"death\" of consciousness. The concept does not exist. ...just as long as we don't get completely sucked into an image of what the afterlife will be like, and believe it to be the only possibility.

Dogma comes in all forms I guess. For someone who claims we should be open to possibilities, it sounds like you have already dogmatically eliminated some of those possibilities, then come up with some dogma of your own... Death of consciousness can be different from the moral perfecting of consciousness (doing away with sin and imperfection).

The quote from Corinthians has nothing to do with the concept of "pre-existence" as it is taught by the LDS church. And I never said anything about the resurrection, buddy. I believe in the resurrection. To form a church doctrine based on isolated verses plucked from their full context is a dangerous way to interpret scripture not to mention it is also unsound. Verses 40-42 are simply Paul's comparison of spiritual bodies with carnal bodies. He is not teaching that there are "3 kingdoms." He is demonstrating the differences between the spiritual realms and the physical realms. Celestial=heavenly. Terrestrial=earthly. Simple as that.

What Bible Texts Do LDS Use To Teach Three Heavens?
Mormons use II Cor 12:2 to teach three heavenly kingdoms because Paul spoke of "one caught up to the third heaven." But, the Bible does not say that anyone will spend eternity in the first or second heaven. Why not? Because the first heaven is the atmosphere with birds and clouds (Gen. 1:20; Ps. 147:8).The second heaven (sidereal) refers to the stars and outer space (Gen. 1: 14-19). The third heaven is God's "dwelling place" (I Kings 8:30). Mormons also use the word heaven in the same three ways (Mormon Doctrine, p.347). In II Cor. 12:2 & 4 the third heaven is equated with paradise, so it cannot be the LDS celestial kingdom which requires Mormon baptism for entrance because the unbaptized thief on the cross went to paradise when he died (Lk. 23:43)
Mormons claim Paul referred to three heavens in I Cor. 15:41 when he wrote of the difference in the glories of the sun, moon, and stars.But, that verse is part of his answer to the two questions in verse 35; "How are the dead raised up?And with what body do they come?" Verses 36 to 57 have his complete answer.Verse 41 refers to the difference between the sun, moon and stars and verse 42 continues; "So also is the resurrection of the dead.It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption " In other words, there is a difference between mortal bodies and immortal, resurrected bodies. LDS also claim verse 40 teaches two heavens when it says, "There are also celestial bodies and bodies terrestrial." But, verse 40 is also part of the answer to the questions in verse 35 about resurrected bodies, so it cannot refer to heavens. In the King James Bible the Greek word epigeios is translated as "terrestrial" in verse 40, but as "earth" in verse 47 (and in Phil. 2:10 & 3:19).Also, the Greek word epouranios is translated as "celestial" in verse 40 but as 'heaven" or "heavenly" four times in verses 47-49.Dictionaries also define "terrestrial" as "earthly" and "celestial" as "heavenly." Translations other than the King James use "earthly" and "heavenly" instead of "terrestrial" and "celestial" in I Cor. 15:40.According to II Cor. 5:1-4, we now have an earthly or terrestrial (epigeios) body which will be exchanged for a heavenly (celestial) body when we are resurrected.No one in the Bible is ever promised another terrestrial body.Joseph Smith coined the word "telestial" in verse 40 of his Inspired Version of the Bible, but that word does not even exist in the original Greek language and it conflicts with all Bible manuscript evidence.The only place that word can be found is in Mormon writings!
What Does The Bible Teach About Three Degrees of Glory?
1. OLD TESTAMENT PROPHETS mentioned only two ways to spend eternity: the dead will awake toÊeverlasting life or to shame and everlasting contempt (Dan. 12:2), heaven or hell are the alternatives in Psalm 139:8, Isa. 14:12-15.No other options are found in the Old Testament.
2. JESUS CHRIST mentioned only two ways to spend eternity in the kingdom of heaven or in outer darkness (Matt. 8:11-12), in life eternal or in everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46); in the kingdom of God or in hell fire (Mark 9:47); being saved or lost (Lk. 19:10); having everlasting life or perishing (Jn. 3:16); condemned or not condemned (Jn. 3:18); having life or death (Jn. 5:24); having the resurrection of the just or of the unjust (Jn.5:29).
3. THE APOSTLE JOHN mentioned only two ways to spend eternity: having life everlasting or having the wrath of God (Jn. 3:36); having eternal life or not having eternal life (I Jn. 5:11-12); those whose names are not in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:15) and those whose names arc in the book of life enter into God's presence in the heavenly Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2-3 & 27).Notice, a name is either in or not in the book of life.No other alternative exists!
4.THE APOSTLE PETER mentioned only two ways to spend eternity: the saved have an incorruptible inheritance in heaven while the unsaved do not (I Pet. 1:3-5) the godly are delivered to a new heaven and earth while the ungodly perish inperdition and judgment (II Pet. 2:9, 3:7-9 & 13).
5. THE APOSTLE PAUL mentioned only two ways to spend eternity: "The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23), believers are saved while unbelievers perish (I Cor. 1:18); the justified inherit God's kingdom but the unrighteous do not (I Cor. 6:9-11); followers of God inherit the kingdom of Christ and of God, but the wrath of God comes on the disobedient (Eph. 5:1-6); believers inherit the kingdom of God, but those who don't know or obey God are punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord (II Thess. 1: 5-9).

First off...buddy i never said 1st coronthians said anything about the pre existance, i forgot u didn't find anything about it, but i'll be sure to find it for u. & secondly where it was talking about "celestrial" bodies & what not, it was talking about after judgment & worthiness towards god....which is a title btw...& what is this thing about paradise? just because they weren't babtised doesn't mean they weren't good people worthy enough to be in a happy place....& while they r in paradise they are taught teachings that allow them 2 be babtised later...that's why the LDS church has 'babtisms for the dead" if u want the scripture on the bible pertaining 2 that i can get that for u in 2 seconds! & why can't ressurected bodies be tied 2 heaven? it simply is saying the body is tied 2 its degree of glory! pluss most everything in the bible is used in metaphors like that of Eve coming across a serpant in the garden...which is Satan appearing as a holy man...if u want the complete description of that...i got that covered 2. The reason why Terrestrial is referred 2 earth is simple....THAT IS WHERE THE KINGDOM IS! who says heaven has to be "in the sky" it is just in a perfect form. I do agree w/the difference between the bodies being mortal & immortal though. As for the Telestrail word it does exist but i will have 2 wait for my brother 2 get home so i can ask him 2 prove that 2 u. & it makes sense there are only 2 ways 2 spend eternity in hell or heaven...hello....just because there are 3 kingdoms doesn't mean it still isn't a heavenly place then of course theres outer darkness where only those who deny christ the son go....but i'm sure there are different levels of hell as well...but i really don't study too much of that place seeing as how i don't plan on going there. Btw....the 3 kingdoms doesn't last for eternity anyhow! after judgement you are either found worthy enough to have a body & live on earth in perfect form during the millenium...or just flat out burn w/satan & his followers so of course i'm supporting everything said about "2 eternities" because it is right.

I was only trying to show that isolated scripture verses should not be used to found entire doctrines. There have been more than thirty different attempts to interpret the passage regarding baptism of the dead. 1. The plain meaning of the Greek in verse 29 is that some people are being baptized on behalf of those who have died--and if there is no resurrection, why are they doing this? 2. Either Paul is referring to a pagan custom (notice he uses the word "they," not "we"), or he is referring to a superstitious and unscriptural practice in the Corinthian church of vicarious baptism for believers who died before being baptized. 3. Either way, he certainly does not approve of or teach the practice as an ordinance; he merely says that if there is no resurrection, why would the custom take place? The Mormon practice of baptism for the dead is neither scriptural or sensible. Baptism for the dead is a practice that was common in the pagan religions of Greece and is still practiced today by some cults; but it doesn't change a person's sentence, for that is determined while he lives (Luke 16:26). There is no evidence that the people described in the Book of Mormon practiced, or knew of, baptism for the dead. In fact, Book of Mormon teaching seems to clearly preclude the practice on several counts; the evidence on this point is considered later in the article. The silence of the Book of Mormon on baptism for the dead is an important fact, for it means that a single verse in the Bible — 1 Corinthians 15:29 — constitutes its sole mention in ancient Christian Scripture. This is acknowledged by the Encyclopedia of Mormonism (a 1992 work published under the supervision of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the LDS church3 ) — “He [Paul] refers to a practice of vicarious baptism, a practice for which we have no other evidence in the Pauline or other New Testament or early Christian writings.”
1 Corinthians 15:29 reads: Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? (KJV used here and throughout). The first thing to notice about this verse is that baptism for the dead is only mentioned, it is not actually taught. Given the scanty nature of the evidence, it is especially important to follow sound principles of Scriptural interpretation in seeking to understand this verse. Two basic principles relevant to this task are: (1) do not read a verse in isolation, but carefully consider it in its context, and (2) use clear, unambiguous Scriptural passages to interpret what is obscure or less clear, not the other way around.
The Corinthians’ inflated view of baptism holds an important clue to the meaning of 1 Corinthians 15:29. For as we shall see, baptism for the dead is linked by the apostle to an errant group within the Corinthian church, whose false teaching the entire fifteenth chapter of 1 Corinthians — including verse 29 aims to correct. Far from endorsing the baptism for the dead, Paul associates it with a group whom he has already identified as being in deep doctrinal and spiritual error. Furthermore, baptism is simply an outward symbolic rite and public declaration of faith indicative of the inward spiritual rebirth but is not NECESSARY for salvation (which is a view that most Mormons hold in regards to baptism as a whole...)

Hmm sorry I skipped the whole load of Bible stuff. It's just there like every other religion to keep people focused on the story in a literal sense when in reality it fails to describe the magnitude of what, not who, we really are. I'm not spewing dogma, I'm taking religion and whipping off the mask. The deal is that we are not human - this is a shell to experience this existence. We are the creators of it, but we have been indoctrinated to believe we are somehow subordinate to it, unable to change it, and at the mercy of it. The truth is that it originates from right inside our heads. The subconscious mind is accessing this reality through a frequency, which is transmitted through the conscious mind, which acts as an individual observer. Our eyes pick up light vibrations, and with that information combined with the Universal point of view, our world is created and we are given a certain perspective of it. Atoms are nothing more than empty space, and the electrons are the vibrations which are accessed by our eyes. You are looking at a hologram

It both scientifically and metaphysically explains the true nature of our existence. Pretty satisfying to me, puts a LOT of questions to rest. Basically I want us to intimately understand one another and regain our spiritual nature which exists, and has always existed inside us. We should not focus on what makes us different, but rather what makes us the same. Then manifesting physical forms from thoughts becomes reality. Mind over matter.

Originally posted by Awaken
Hmm sorry I skipped the whole load of Bible stuff. It's just there like every other religion to keep people focused on the story in a literal sense when in reality it fails to describe the magnitude of what, not who, we really are. I'm not spewing dogma, I'm taking religion and whipping off the mask. The deal is that we are not human - this is a shell to experience this existence. We are the creators of it, but we have been indoctrinated to believe we are somehow subordinate to it, unable to change it, and at the mercy of it. The truth is that it originates from right inside our heads. The subconscious mind is accessing this reality through a frequency, which is transmitted through the conscious mind, which acts as an individual observer. Our eyes pick up light vibrations, and with that information combined with the Universal point of view, our world is created and we are given a certain perspective of it. Atoms are nothing more than empty space, and the electrons are the vibrations which are accessed by our eyes. You are looking at a hologram

It both scientifically and metaphysically explains the true nature of our existence. Pretty satisfying to me, puts a LOT of questions to rest. Basically I want us to intimately understand one another and regain our spiritual nature which exists, and has always existed inside us. We should not focus on what makes us different, but rather what makes us the same. Then manifesting physical forms from thoughts becomes reality. Mind over matter.

-just wanted to say that i find what you say very interesting.. I've never really heard others speak of life this way.. where do your theories come from? excuse my ignorance please if you've already mentioned this.. and you're whole idea of "after life is what you make it" (sorry for the mis-quote) but i think that's basically what you said. So you think that if someone truelly believes they will.. let's say.. become a fish after dying.. and they believe it with all their heart.. then that's what will happen? I would love to hear more about your thoughts on this.. feel free to PM me about it...

Originally posted by evangel
Baptism for the dead is a practice that was common in the pagan religions of Greece and is still practiced today by some cults

Are you saying my people r a cult?


ps. i'll be back w/my brother 2 reply on this topic.

The only difference between a religion and a cult is 100 years.

Haha, bradybaker, your sarcasm cracks me up sometimes.

I remember talking with a bunch of people from school about religion, and one remarked "Christianity started as a cult." Well, I mean, it's true. Not saying it's wrong or right in legalistic terms. If you lead a radical new movement that pisses off the majority of people initially and causes much controversy, it's pretty much a cult until it's well-tolerated.

I don't know why you guys evolved this forum into comparing Mormons with Christians!!! I have a Mormon cousin, and he poses little trouble for me.



The afterlife thing has never been settled. To some, it's the truth about judgement. To others, it's seen as the motivation to make people moral. You can respect or judge it.

A theologian is no smarter than the atheistic college professor. You should look at as many points as possible if you want, and draw your own conclusions, like evangel says.

We live here, we live now.

There is no big point in discussing these questions, since these kinds of channels has nothing the offer but the opinions of other human beings.
Hence, they have the same chance of carrying the same amount of genuine truth to them as your own beliefs, and they are probably just as relevant.

As long as we are here, and just living our lives, we are the subjects (or victims) to dogms and suggestions of the world around us.
Some time ago, the dogms were harder on us, and on some places on earth the dogms that are being forced upon the children with their pap are still very hard.

Just because we manage to live here pretending to not be suffering, doesn't mean we aren't brainwashed just as thoroughly right now.
The common sense and the obvious logic we rely on today is using the same process of anchorage as was used during the dark ages.
That very common sense is deciding what we believe in, that obvious logic is ruling over our acceptance of things.

\"The only difference between a religion and a cult is 100 years.\" *
[/b]

- I totally agree. I don't think it was sarcasm at all. 8)

It depends on what one's definition of a "cult" is. There are some cults tha exist that are "well tolerated." One should not rely on priests, pastors, Theologians, parents, or big brothers to form beliefs or opinions for them. One must eventually arrive at their own conclusions and convictions. As far as their being "no point" in discussion, I totally disagree. Many people find purpose, passion, conviction, and direction ONLY THROUGH discussion of this sort.

Well i get ur point totally, & my "big" brother isn't the one who has decided my beliefs for me, i was born into an LDS family & left it @ the age of 14 & didn't rejoin it untill the middle of last year. (16) i just wanted u 2 know that i made this decisions all on my own. & i have a lot of friends that aren't LDS i once had a best friend who is Babtist & i have an Athiest bf. Your beliefs don't discourage me @ all, the only reason i'm having my brother reply on this topic is because i know he knows quite a bit more than i do on the matter, i'm not saying he is coming w/come backs for me. I'm just saying i want 2 see his opinion on the matter.

Ayeeet. Here's some reading material in the meantime...

http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/chris...stianorcult.htm

http://www.bidstrup.com/mormon.htm

Originally posted by evangel
It depends on what one's definition of a \"cult\" is. There are some cults tha exist that are \"well tolerated.\" One should not rely on priests, pastors, Theologians, parents, or big brothers to form beliefs or opinions for them. One must eventually arrive at their own conclusions and convictions. As far as their being \"no point\" in discussion, I totally disagree. Many people find purpose, passion, conviction, and direction ONLY THROUGH discussion of this sort.

Yeah, and I think it's sad that these kinds of conversations is the ONLY MEANS for those attributes.
Everybody gives their point of view, which is colored by that specific person's background, parents, big brothers, priests and theologists. There is no denying this.

The results of these kinds of conversations is only that some people will color their point of view differently, not necessarily better.

Let's just admit it.. We don't know shit by ourselves, and we probably never will. You believe in what you think is right, and you act and feel accordingly to this.
Eventually, you are the only one to decide, and then it won't really matter what everybody else has told you - or it will matter, to you and to you alone.

All the answers we will ever need is within ourselves, however not in our emotions, thoughts or beliefs.
However, I do agree that searching for truth is necessary, and I guess everybody will search wherever they can and where they think they'll find something. This doesn't mean that they'll find any truth, but it is possible that the most persistent ones will reach their goals. I think it's about never giving up.

This life sure is tricky, isn't it? 8)

Ok i read it. It didn't shake my beliefs @ all, i can come up w/an answer 2 every thing that they try 2 back lash us on.
For example "there is only one god"
True only one god 2 every planet, not 2 mention that god is a tittle....
just wanted 2 use that one i guess....the thing is i have doubted this religion many times that is why i left it. The thing is i have come back because i have seen 2 many miracles in this church, & i have come 2 way 2 many answers 2 questions, & i can't find a single flaw anywhere, no matter how many time people try 2 bible bash me w/why it can't be so (which trust me is quite often) i always find an answer 2 why it can be so. We rn't as closed off & cult like as everyone thinks. The other thing i can't leave is the prophet of our church, i don't understand why the other christian churchs (yes i know we aren't considered christian but we are) don't believe in having living prophets, it is as if they believe God stopped loving his people or decided prophets were only for the "old times" My point is i have found too much truth in this church 2 abandon it again. I'v changed my mind on having my brother respond, it is clear 2 me that no matter how many answers i give you, you r simply gonna' bible bash me back. Which is fine, i would obviously keep doing the same...which i have been. The last thing i wanted 2 say is we didn't use coronthians as a WHOLE for some of our teachings, we simply use it as a reference for those who have never read the book of mormon & such. & lastly, the name of our church isn't "Mormon" it is - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Mormon was a guy, we don't follow him, we follow Christ & his teachings.

Ok i read it. [/b]

You are a pretty quick reader... I guess you already knew all that stuff.

i can come up w/an answer 2 every thing that they try 2 back lash us on. [/b]

You a pretty smart cookie then. I guess you have all the answers...

Everybody gives their point of view, which is colored by that specific person's background, parents, big brothers, priests and theologists. There is no denying this. [/b]

Colored, influenced, inspired: sure -but it's the unquestioning brainwashing and regurgitating techniques that i don't like.

Let's just admit it.. We don't know shit by ourselves, and we probably never will. You believe in what you think is right, and you act and feel accordingly to this. *
Eventually, you are the only one to decide, and then it won't really matter what everybody else has told you - or it will matter, to you and to you alone. [/b]

The idea that there is no absolute truth is not only dismal... It is also contradictory.

This life sure is tricky, isn't it? [/b]

If it wasn't, I suppose it would be boring don't you think?

You a pretty smart cookie then. I guess you have all the answers... [/b]

Yep i sure do! 8)
just try me...

U R wrong. U R all wrong. **I** have all the answers. I ams o smrt. Boo ya.

YES! :bravo:
Yesterday, I turned 12 years old! Imagine!
Let's all live HAPPILY everafter! :chill:

LOVE! loooove! luuuuV!1!v
Let's dance! Dance I say!

Cherios! Right now I'm too laze and stupid to figure out anything constructive to say, I'll hope you'll excuse me.

So, I'm off!!! Eat serials! Killszsersss! :finger:

8) 8) 8)
We're the MEN in BLACK (sun-glasses)

Booooyaaah!

Are you actually 12?

We sure can't distinguish age by level of intellect anymore (not referring to ^^ that post)