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    1. #1
      Dionysian stormcrow's Avatar
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      Hume's Bundle Theory

      So the bundle theory is Humeís idea that an object is only a collection of properties and relations and thatís it. So there cannot be an object without properties, these properties are not the object itself but just features of the object.

      Example: An apple, it has color, shape, taste, etc (all properties) Hume says that only the properties of an apple exist, there is no apple without its properties. He challenges us to try to imagine an apple without properties.

      Anyway I know Hume is ancient history but Iíve been reading him lately and wanted to know what you guys think.

    2. #2
      Xei
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      Don't agree, at least how it was stated there. What is the ontological status of an apple before anybody sees it? In other words, 'where does stuff come from'?

    3. #3
      Miss Sixy <span class='glow_FFFFFF'>Maria92</span>'s Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Don't agree, at least how it was stated there. What is the ontological status of an apple before anybody sees it? In other words, 'where does stuff come from'?
      Its property of being composed of matter? Dunno if that counts. -.-

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    4. #4
      Xei
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      It seems to me that all of these 'properties' require a conscious observer to exist, which is interesting.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      It seems to me that all of these 'properties' require a conscious observer to exist, which is interesting.
      are there any properties that don't require a conscious observer to exist?

    6. #6
      Dionysian stormcrow's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      It seems to me that all of these 'properties' require a conscious observer to exist, which is interesting.
      Quote Originally Posted by no-Name View Post
      are there any properties that don't require a conscious observer to exist?
      Well that's kinda what the bundle theory(at least my understanding of it) is getting at, that only the observable properties actually exist. Hume was an empiricist after all.
      In a way it is challenge to the platonic idea that objects have a "eternal essence" he is saying that the properties that we can observe empirically is what makes up the apple, there is no "pure" form of an apple once you strip away the properties.

      It is almost similar to the Copenhagen interpretation and kind of the opposite of Plato's ontology.

    7. #7
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      Objects are made up of physical stuff, and that physical stuff sometimes indirectly interacts with our senses to create impressions on our minds. That's all that needs to be said. Whatever question is asked needs to be rephrased with this view in mind, and when it is, the answer becomes obvious.

    8. #8
      DuB
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      I think this is a misinterpretation of Hume's theory. The argument is not that objects are comprised of observer-dependent properties, just that they are comprised of properties. The examples from the OP happen to all be observer-dependent, but this is not required by the theory.

      I don't see any obvious problems with the theory. If anything, it is trivially true. Even if you think that you could conceive of an object without any properties, that imagined object would consequently have the property "can be conceived of."

    9. #9
      Dionysian stormcrow's Avatar
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      But don't properties have to be observable to be properties?

    10. #10
      DuB
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      We're talking about whether properties are "observer-dependent," not whether they are "observable." Taste is observer-dependent. Color is observer-dependent (assuming we're defining color as a psychological experience). Shape is not observer-dependent: a circle is round even when you're not looking at it. So what I just said earlier about all of the examples you gave being examples of observer-dependence actually isn't true.

    11. #11
      Dionysian stormcrow's Avatar
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      Oh ok I know what you are talking about now, my bad.

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