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    Thread: Conscience

    1. #1
      Dreamah in ReHaB AirRick101's Avatar
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      Conscience

      What is it? Is it universally recognizable? Where does it come from? Is it absolute, or conditioned? Gift/curse? The key to peace of mind?
      naturals are what we call people who did all the right things accidentally

    2. #2
      Yoi yume wo~! Rakkantekimusouka's Avatar
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      Conscience is...admirable. I guess it does depend on how you were raised, but usually, it keeps you in check; it presses you to be honest and honorable, etc.

      I like my conscience. I think it helps me a lot in being a better person and helping other people, or at least wanting to.
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      Dreamah in ReHaB AirRick101's Avatar
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      Materalistic science believes it to be purely of survival descent and function. Religion usually asserts it points to a God, and I can sometimes see that. I can see how its survival mechanism is true, but I think it goes further than that, considering that it's possible for a willed self-sacrifice to be for the good of another.

      My best take is that it's a desire for the highest good of everyone, depending on how knowledgeable one is on the situation.
      naturals are what we call people who did all the right things accidentally

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      Member irishcream's Avatar
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      to me it's like the times when you want to do something and you just know its wrong, for whatever reason...even if it's just wrong for yourself, and then having the discipline and prescence of mind to obey that conscience. I think it comes before and after an event.
      Before, when conscience says, 'this is not a good idea' and after if you don't listen, when it says 'see? i told you!'

      it's about living for yourself as well as other people, considering other people in your decisions, although sometimes you have to abandon your conscience to arrive where you want to be, or you'll never live.
      'all of the moments that already passed/
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      Hmm Interesting question (btw I love your topic topics), I would have to say we have it beacse it helps us survive as a species. We can learn right from worng and know what to eat and hwo to treat out other speices and how not to interact with them in the wrong way. This way we can survive and thrive as a species. We have it to be greater than anything that there has been before us.
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      to quote that tv program American Gothic from a few years ago:

      "Conscience is the fear of getting caught"

      but i think its more than that for most people, its also a manifestation of a desire to have a livable-with self image.

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      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Conscience isn't just about self image and avoiding punishment from others. It is about the capacity to feel guilt, which is a very specific emotion. Without it, there would be no more human race. We have evolved into something way too intelligent to survive as a species without it.

      Having a conscience comes from appreciating the consciousness of others, which adds an excellent dimension to life. Sociopaths, people who don't have consciences, never see that side of life and are missing a great deal. It adds a lot of meaning to everything. To a sociopath, a conscience is just another person's weakness to take advantadge of. I'm glad I'm not so shallow and primitive.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


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      how is not stealing, not looking at pornography, not lying, etc important to our survival?
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      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Originally posted by dreamer3
      how is not stealing, not looking at pornography, not lying, etc important to our survival?
      I don't think looking at porn has anything to do with conscience or lack of it. There is no victim. It has to do with religious stuff. Not lying and stealing result from conscience, but lying and stealing are not the biggest problems. Appreciating and valuing the consciousness of others puts a big check on killing and keeps a big check on watching out for each other. It gets us to work together more than otherwise. It is a major device of social chaos prevention. Stealing leads to violence and other chaos. It also makes some end up with nothing. Lying is all over the place still, but evolving out of it will be a sign that we are all more on the same side and have more appreciation for each other, which will be better for the survival of us all. When conscience evolves more, the Husseins, Bin Ladens, Capones, common street gangsters, rapists, corrupt politicians, and other scum of the world will no longer exist and will not be causing so much death and social decay.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


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      Originally posted by Universal Mind
      Conscience isn't just about self image and avoiding punishment from others. It is about the capacity to feel guilt, which is a very specific emotion. Without it, there would be no more human race. We have evolved into something way too intelligent to survive as a species without it.

      Having a conscience comes from appreciating the consciousness of others, which adds an excellent dimension to life. Sociopaths, people who don't have consciences, never see that side of life and are missing a great deal. It adds a lot of meaning to everything. To a sociopath, a conscience is just another person's weakness to take advantadge of. I'm glad I'm not so shallow and primitive.
      i'd like the add "the need for approval" to the elements that make up an conscience,

      guilt isn't something fundamental by itself, its just an internalisation of the need of approval. a mental modelling of what we think others do (or would if they knew) think of us.

    11. #11
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Conscience is one thing, and worry about what people think of you is another. They are two very separate emotions. Guilt is an emotion that is very distinct is the result of the conscious capacity to suffer over causing the suffering of an innocent person. That pain affects a person with a conscience in a very negative and haunting way, and the exact emotion is guilt. It is a feeling of horror on some level in direct association with the terrible thought of an undeserving person suffering because of your hostile or irresponsible act. It is not embarassment or public image worry of any kind. A person can feel tremendous guilt without at all believeing anybody will find out what he/she did.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


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      ok, here is question to ponder:

      can in general a person be trustable, if they have:

      - a very keen sense of the short and long term consquences of their actions.
      - a desire to see themselves as a decent person
      - a desire for social acceptance

      but experience no or little guilt.

    13. #13
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Originally posted by voidofform
      ok, here is question to ponder:

      can in general a person be trustable, if they have:

      - a very keen sense of the short and long term consquences of their actions.
      - a desire to see themselves as a decent person
      - a desire for social acceptance

      but experience no or little guilt.
      I think a lot of people stay in check most of the time because they have those qualities, but they always slip up at some point because they don't have a conscience to stop them. All it takes for them to slip up and do something evil is a significant rationalization and a way to avoid getting caught.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    14. #14
      Member Kaniaz's Avatar
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      My conscience says x is right, and y will like/dislike you for that action, but in no way does it actually stop me from doing something. It just helps me gauge the reaction so I now how to do what I want, without getting in the line of fire (ie: get blamed).

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      Dreamah in ReHaB AirRick101's Avatar
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      I think conscience tells us that something outside will be against us for doing a certain something, even if it's our own minds. If it doesn't require something outside, and only results is guilt, then the result is empathy.
      naturals are what we call people who did all the right things accidentally

    16. #16
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Can it be answered?

      Conscience, consciousness, memory are what? A memory is only what consists of your actions of that moment. For as soon as it is here it is as quickly a memory. With no knowledge of a memory there is a subjective existance.
      It is just you and your conscious/consciense.
      I think Conscience has evolved through our conditioning. While some inate properties of consciousness are in all of us.
      The same goes for what is crazy and what is sane? I once labled them as most of us know them. We lable them good or bad. And or conscience can be deceptive. If you put each under a microscope they are both lables are nothing more. Just percieved as either a good perception or a bad perception. A perception none the less. Any perception can be manipulated into a belief. Everything we have become is a product of someone else, with your name on it. With your twist. Just as any musician or composer, artist whomever relies on his or hers predeccesors to compile what they create.
      So then, what is unique? If you change this condition response from previous insight is it a form of self brain washing?
      Are we meant to find a deeper meening in things or has or conscience opened up a door that consists of a never ending void to fill the impossilble. A never ending dibelief in all things. This bring rise to to actions of self awareness, live in the moment and such. Are these not all answers to wich one cannot find piece through the belief in something that they feel has validity to it. Something Solid.
      Is being brainwashed to beleive to in anything really that bad? If you are content that is!
      If we sleep walk through through life and eternal rest is the answer to both scenarios the isn't ignorance bliss?

      Sorry for the rant. I just was brainstorming about our consciosness and conscience and wrote this down. It probalby makes little sense.

    17. #17
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      I think conscience is simply acknowledgement of choice and its consequences. Despite your reason for Having conscience on a certain issue, its still ponderance over a choice. It is a sign of being more open-minded than not, in a certain situation. When you're faced with a situation, and you're Conscious of a certain need to choose, you're either going to blindly choose what better option suits you at that moment, regardless of the consequences, or you're going to stop and think over the pros and cons of whichever decision you make.
      Your Reasons for choosing whatever decision it is you decide to make, can be based on Anything, in my opinion. It can be a check toward morality, religion, empty philosophy, whatever your motivations are. But this is all an extention of a simple, basic, human, recognition of choice.
      Those people who act without conscience, or even Consciousness of the punishments for their wrong choices, and up often paying for their neglegence and wondering what it is that went wrong, never aware of the initial Right Choice to begin with. But usually, they fully understand While, or After, paying for their ignorance.
      Everyone has a conscience. Some people listen to it, some hear what it says; the obviously more logical choice for a single situation, yet chose not to heed the warning,and some don't hear it at all. But I think its more a simple, perceptive, consciousness of choice, than anything else.
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      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      A choice. That is definatly true Oneironaut. But the choices that you are talking about are more as action and response choices.
      Do we as growiing up really have some of the choices to how our brain was conditionesd to beleve somesthing.
      Have you ever thought that it is rather odd that people grow up believing in what they are tought from birth. Out of all the hundreds of choices or beliefs out there you just happen to be born into the family that has the right answer.?!

    19. #19
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      Oh, absolutely. Choice is not particularly the brainchild of the choser. Alot of times its forced upon them by other people. I agree with you about that, and there is much evidence of that in today's society. I did state how there are some that don't see the choice at all. They follow one path blindly (whether their reason for doing so was their own doing, or their family tradition) and have no conscience about going with that course of action because that is their irrefutable 'faith.'
      But it's very true that this is not always their fault.
      Those who are told what to do from the begining, and through contact grow Conscious of the other possible reactions, will then discover their conscience about it. It is then that they are presented with the Choice to make between the two. However even from this point, family/friend/peer influence can still cause them to continue on with their present way of thinking, causing them to dismiss the choice because its just 'not what they were taught, so it must be wrong.'
      This is simply having conscience, but not listening to it, whether it's voluntary or involuntary. Being conscious of the choice and deciding whether or not to even consider it as possibility. Conscience itself is still there, though the person just believes it "must be wrong."
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      Originally posted by Oneironaut
      Oh, absolutely. Choice is not particularly the brainchild of the choser. Alot of times its forced upon them by other people. I agree with you about that, and there is much evidence of that in today's society. I did state how there are some that don't see the choice at all. They follow one path blindly (whether their reason for doing so was their own doing, or their family tradition) and have no conscience about going with that course of action because that is their irrefutable 'faith.'
      But it's very true that this is not always their fault.
      Those who are told what to do from the begining, and through contact grow Conscious of the other possible reactions, will then discover their conscience about it. It is then that they are presented with the Choice to make between the two. However even from this point, family/friend/peer influence can still cause them to continue on with their present way of thinking, causing them to dismiss the choice because its just 'not what they were taught, so it must be wrong.'
      This is simply having conscience, but not listening to it, whether it's voluntary or involuntary. Being conscious of the choice and deciding whether or not to even consider it as possibility. Conscience itself is still there, though the person just believes it \"must be wrong.\"
      I just wanted to add that you guys have given excellent illustration of the destructiveness that ignorance plays in the cause of suffering. You may find that ignorance goes tail in mouth with hatred, and greed. Excellent talk guys, keep it up.
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    21. #21
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      Thank ya. 8)
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      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Thank ya ...too! FoolofJoy.

      Very well put Oneironaut.
      I guess at some point we most likley will have many choices. Wether we remain to be open mined to those choices is yet to be seen.

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      Hmm ok here's my thought on conscience... I'd tend to agree with a more scientific view of conscience and guilt, and the role these tow things might play in survival.

      I think that despite its merits, conscience is actually has a selfish side to it. It is a way of ensuring that you stick to a certain belief or moral code of the society around you, because of the benefits this might give you.

      Say we have a poor person. They get up from a park bech without realising that they have left their wallet behind. You, as a human are faced with this choice: you can either pick it up, run after the person and return the purse, or you can pick up the purse and take the money for your own benefit. Now surely the best thing for you, when thinking in terms of 'survival of the fittest' would be to take that money for yourself so that you will have extra food? Well this is where conscience comes in...

      You see the wallet, and the poor person and most people (I hope) would run after the person and give them their wallet back. Why would you do this? You don't know the person at all, and you have little connection with them, in fact in evolutionary terms you are competing with each other for rescources. I think that the reason most people would return the wallet is because they can picture themselves in the poor person's shoes and ask themselves "what if I was in that position?" By retruning the wallet and showing kindness you (in a way) are trying to assure yourself that should you be in such circumstances the same would happen to you.

      Guilt, in my opinion, works in much the same way. It's not so much a case of you feeling bad that you've taken the money of a person, but it is you subconcsiously thinking that you wouldn't want someone to do the same to you one day.

      I also think that this can be translated into other things as well. For another example - most people wouldn't think twice about squashing a spider that has crawled into their bedroom. Most normal people would not kill a stray dog that has walked into their backyard. Why not? Well I think it's because the more you see yourself in something (a dog, a cat, a chimpanzee) the more your conscience tells you not to harm it, because you can subconsciously see that it might be you in that situation one day. Is the dog any more alive than the spider? Well I'm not into the business of weighing life, but it's something to ponder.

      While conscience and kindnes are undoubtably beautiful, precious things, they also are born out of a small selfishness. In my opinion anyway.

    24. #24
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      This thread to me is like I am on the other side of the tennis court, and waiting with my tennis racket. But you hit your tennis ball of discussion about truth out of the court completely. (there it goes over into the distance in the other direction out of site.)

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      Ahh what? How do you mean exactly?

      Feel free to share your thoughts on it, nobody is stopping you. I'd like to hear what everyone has to say, as with any other topic...

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