Right and wrong doesn't exist

Muslim extremist think they are doing the right thing
we think it is wrong to kill people
Catholics think everything god does is right
god think everything we do is wrong or a sin

if religion was out of the picture
each person would think that everything they do is right
and everything they dont like is wrong

so if right and wrong does not exist then anything could be 'right' or 'wrong'

everything god does might be wrong
everything we do might be right

killing may be the right thing
not killing may be wrong

There is no right and wrong in the objective sense. People can still use the words though to describe whether an action is in accordance with their goals or not. I might say it's wrong to kill people because it makes me feel bad to see people dead or I realize our society wouldn't function well if people readily killed others. And some people define 'right' as something that helps attain goals or preserve lifestyles that the majority of society values. That's as close as the concepts can come to being objective, I think. If someone was born with a fucked up mind and found that murder was a good thing, then for that person murder would be right.

What I've said makes sense to me and to many others, but for some reason a lot of people, when confronted with the viewpoint, seem appalled and refuse to consider that it's true. Many people insist on right and wrong to be objective truths for some reason.

I totally agree with Dianeva.

For something to be right or wrong, there needs to be a subjective interpretation that perceives it as such.

As humans, we can really only truly experience the subjective perspective. It is biologically wired in us. We can understand objectivity and maybe even consider it in some situations. But seeing that we can't control which of our emotions pops up when, amongst other human characteristics, we always experience some sort of subjective reality.

Through an objective viewpoint, things simply are. It is what it is.

Through a subjective viewpoint, right and wrong vary. You don't share a conscious mind with anyone else at this moment. You and every other person have a distinct reality you are living which is based on your experiences, what you've been taught, your values, and the way you currently perceive the world. Thus, there are billions of different subjective realities/perspectives simultaneously existing and being experienced in this world today. Not to mention the fact that they are incredibly malleable. :shock:

So its easy to see how easily right and wrong can differ from person to person.

Just because you do not know for a fact what is right or wrong doens't mean it doesn't exist. That doesn't mean it exists either. But none of that really matters because like it was said above it is all subjective. As long as you do what you think is right then you won't be able to say you didn't try. :P

you worded your title wrong

its dont, not doesnt

Unless you think of "right and wrong" as a single term.

to me, one thing might be wrong while to you it might be right, so how can it not exist? I dont get this thread. If i think its wrong, then to me its wring. SO wrong does exist for everyone, because everyone thinks something is wrong.

If you're talking about morally. Right and wrong is a judgement that everyone has a right to make for themselves, about themselves, through their own experience. If you judge that nothing you do is either right or wrong because everyone sees things differently. You still would need to realize that you cannot live without making decisions about it. You still will be considering the importance of actions and consequences. You do that automatically and unconsciously as well as consciously. You live right and wrong everyday writing about it is just theoretical and philosophical. You live it in your experience everyday so it's as real as anything is going to get and it effects you and the people around you, as does their decisions.

I don't really believe in right and wrong. But I do believe in balance and out of balance!

"It's wrong to kill people"
"There is no wrong, I simply can't imagine a situation where it would be justified."
"Same thing."
"Except I get to use my imagination."

OP : The realization such as yours is normal according to developmental psychology. As children we believed strongly that everyone has to play according to the rules and we had almost unwavering respect for authority. Then we (usually) mature and understand that nothing is true, everything is just permitted. People invent ideas, other people decide to follow them. And pretty much everything is subjective.

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Originally Posted by Unelias

OP : The realization such as yours is normal according to developmental psychology. As children we believed strongly that everyone has to play according to the rules and we had almost unwavering respect for authority. Then we (usually) mature and understand that nothing is true, everything is just permitted. People invent ideas, other people decide to follow them. And pretty much everything is subjective.

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'Usually' but sometimes not. (*cough* religion)

It depends on the situation you're in. I don't think right and wrong is something hardwired into our brains, but something we evolved along with the concept of a functional society and economy. In a natural survival situation, I certainly wouldn't hesitate to kill someone if it meant more resources and less competition for those resources. Brutality is something necessary to survival, but when you consider survival of a group as a whole, it is a necessary issue to address.

We all have to agree on certain morals to keep society functioning on a level that is both sustainable and stable. If I go out and kill as many people as I can within my village, it obviously isn't going to help the survival of the group because there is then no group that needs to survive. If I go out and get everybody pregnant after raping them, then the society becomes unsustainable because the economy is destroyed since everybody has a need to have their children fed. We obviously can't provide enough food if everybody has 5 or 6 children because I raped them, so the group as a whole suffers tremendously. If I go out and steal everybody's possessions and hoard everything for myself, then nobody will have anything to survive on, except for the few meager scraps they may be able to hide from me before I steal their stuff again. These are all scnearios that I think people agreed to prevent by establishing a system of right and wrong, which inevitably turns into religion as people try explain the need for the system in ways that will keep it in people's minds for an extended period of time.

So, it really depends on the circumstances we are presented with. If we are presented with trying to keep a group alive and healthy, or if you are forced to live in a group/society, you have to establish a system of right and wrong to keep the group as a whole. However, if everybody is a loner fighting for resources, you have to keep the human race going and you have ensure your survival by getting as many resources as possible with the least amount of competition, which forces you to throw out your previous morals and make new ones that keep you alive.

I apologize if that sounded horrible or illogical, it has been a long time since I wrote something like I just did, and I realize it may not be historically accurate, I was just attempting to explain the need for a system of right and wrong in certain scenarios. :P

It is not illogical, but I see your point more as beneficial for the group/individual vs hazardous than right vs wrong. Of course, right and wrong or good and evil are the words that people usually use to label those things.

How I see it, is that main reasons why people restrict themselves in societies are pretty much about fear of solitude, casting out or being punished in other ways. Of course, there are individuals who do not do these "taboo" things because they feel it truly is against their moral standing. Just like there are people who do restricted things, because they do not accept regulations of a larger group. But in essence, again, nothing is right or wrong.

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Originally Posted by Unelias

It is not illogical, but I see your point more as beneficial for the group/individual vs hazardous than right vs wrong. Of course, right and wrong or good and evil are the words that people usually use to label those things.

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I just felt the need to put the disclaimer on there...

Anyway, yes, what you say is correct, but I believe that the need to maintain order in society helped create the morals that people hold today, they are just more complex than "Do not murder," or "Do not rape," to help reinforce the basic morals.

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Originally Posted by Dianeva

There is no right and wrong in the objective sense. People can still use the words though to describe whether an action is in accordance with their goals or not. I might say it's wrong to kill people because it makes me feel bad to see people dead or I realize our society wouldn't function well if people readily killed others. And some people define 'right' as something that helps attain goals or preserve lifestyles that the majority of society values. That's as close as the concepts can come to being objective, I think. If someone was born with a fucked up mind and found that murder was a good thing, then for that person murder would be right.

What I've said makes sense to me and to many others, but for some reason a lot of people, when confronted with the viewpoint, seem appalled and refuse to consider that it's true. Many people insist on right and wrong to be objective truths for some reason.

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Thankyou! :D /thread

Unless you accept what these terms mean for you. We, as human being, have two drawers where you can shove your life experiences into. Let's name them "right" and "wrong" for the sake of this discussion. Your positive (giving you mental and physical pleasure) experiences go to the RIGHT drawer, your negative ones go into WRONG one.

We all have both of these emotions inside of you, as well as different sets of moral beliefs. Depending of what happens in your life at the very moment and how it affects you personally you either think positively or negatively. About anything. The man/woman you meet. The Arabs invading Europe. Taxes. The future of Earth. Whatever you think about anything is ultimately based on your emotions and memories, not the existing "truth". You cant say what's right or wrong, true or not, because you attribute such terms to your personal experiences, not the inner nature of things. If it exists, at all.

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Originally Posted by Solarflare

you worded your title wrong

its dont, not doesnt

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You forgot your apostrophes, grammar nazi.

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Originally Posted by juroara

I don't really believe in right and wrong. But I do believe in balance and out of balance!

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I agree.

There is no right or wrong, except what animals deem right and wrong to continue their species and run their lives.

It does if you believe in God.

It does if you believe someone who is sitting high enough is allowed to define what is right or wrong.

Why do people feel the compulsion to play word games instead of having a mutual understanding?

How so?

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Originally Posted by Evolventity

Why do people feel the compulsion to play word games instead of having a mutual understanding?

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That would be because people need specificity in order to have an understanding.

Try to think of something that isn't specific and then you can write in this topic again.

There are such things as 'right' and 'wrong'.

The point that we have to understand and accept is simply that they are subjective concepts.

Ok, I've tried to think of something that isn't specific, so I can write here now. :cheeky:

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Why do people feel the compulsion to play word games instead of having a mutual understanding?

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Unfortunately words are the only or best way we have to communicate ideas. And also unfortunately they're very imperfect for it. Words and phrases carry too much baggae, and mean different things to different people, or even to the same person in different contexts.

When trying to express an idea you have to first break it down and try to find the best phrases to express it. Many people just don't bother, and instead use whatever first comes to mind without really elaborating on it. In that case it first become necessary to try to understand exactly what they meant by what they said. This topic seems to still be stuck at that stage.

I wish there was something like a USB cord we could plug in directly between our brains and just transmit raw thoughts undiluted. Forcing them into the imperfect carriers of words and phrases just distorts them too much.

As it stands, the original topic "Right and wrong doesn't exist" is just too vague of a concept to really discuss.