Yeah of course Somii's post was incorrect, it made no sense, yours made little more or at most unnecessarily dragged out a simple assertion. |
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That was little more than a footnote in my post. Specifically it was the definition of free will that I offered based on what the OP seemed to be implying. You clearly missed the main point. I'll walk you through it. Somii protested that the argument from the OP was invalid and then attempted to demonstrate this by formalizing the argument. The point of my post was to say that I think he formalized the argument incorrectly, and that when you do so correctly, it is in fact deductively valid. That doesn't mean that the conclusion is in fact true or that we are obligated to accept it. It just means that if we accept all of the given premises as being true, it would be contradictory to deny the conclusion. However, as I noted previously, the premises can certainly be questioned in various ways. Are we all clear now? |
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Yeah of course Somii's post was incorrect, it made no sense, yours made little more or at most unnecessarily dragged out a simple assertion. |
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Last edited by Wayfaerer; 09-05-2011 at 02:21 AM.
I certainly dragged out what are undeniably a handful of simple assertions. I guess we disagree on the extent to which doing so is useful or informative. My thought is that by fully explicating what the assertions are saying and filling in what seem to be some additional hidden assertions, we can begin to think more clearly about precisely where the original argument may have gone wrong. The fully "drug out" argument is certainly more difficult to parse, but it at least lays all of the philosophical cards on the table, and happens to offer a straightforward one-to-one mapping between the English sentences and the formal, symbolic expression of the original argument. |
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I was reading this the other day http://www-psych.stanford.edu/~knuts.../kosfeld05.pdf and it got me to thinking....if the simple administration of a hormone like oxytocin can determine human behavior in this circumstance, how many other aspects of our behavior are chemically determined? What about love? Is homosexuality a choice or is it a genetically determined trait? Ill offer my own syllogism for fun. |
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it´s a paradox of free will and "destiny" at the same time. Common sense is "destiny" making it self known. |
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Nonsense? Incorrect? Please show me why this is so. |
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I stomp on your ideas.
So what's the ultimate purpose of this questioning? If we have no free will, then where are our decisions coming from? Is this just another way of saying we're little godpuppets? |
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Yes. |
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I agree. Also, I found another interesting way of phrasing this argument. |
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All this really means is that decision-making takes place at a level deeper than subvocalization. Thoughts rise up from the unconscious or the subconscious, whatever you want to call it, and somewhere along the way we make decisions as to whether we want to follow along with this particular idea or reject it and go a different way. And yes, these decisions themselves originate at a level deeper than what we can clearly discern (subvocalization is about as deep as we can clearly follow... beneath that things get a bit murky). |
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Well, IF our decisions aren't the result of subvocalization, then we can hardly be rational decision makers. I think at this point, the natural way for the discussion to shift to ask "what is the self?". IFF you think that it's composed solely of thought, then it follows naturally that decisions happen at a level below thought and therefore, (under that definition of the self) the self does not ultimately make decisions. |
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I knew somebody was going to do that!! You jumped right past the most important thing I said: |
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And how exactly does one decide? Does it go something like this |
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Also, I would like to point out studies on mentally ill patients in which the patients are very adept at confabulating why they are doing something. |
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I decided to write something here, then decided against it. I think. I don't know, I'm confused now. |
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Last edited by Darkmatters; 09-07-2011 at 11:14 AM.
Haha. Let's not even bring up GW. It never happened. |
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Kidjordan, I can accept everything you just said - especially about Bush - but 2 thoughts I'd like to add. |
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Last edited by Darkmatters; 09-07-2011 at 11:23 PM.
I haven't responded in a while. I've been thinking deeply. I want to write about this long-form rather than in a bunch of forum posts because then I spend less time going over the same issues. I will respond. And it will be good. |
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Looking forward to it. This is fascinating, even if I get a little depressed every time think about it. |
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I used to be really depressed (hence the allusions to unwanted thoughts in the post above). I used to think it was because the philosophy was depressing, but I found that if I worked out and got a good night's sleep, I could return to the philosophy except it wouldn't make me sad. I realized that I was conflating my sadness with my philosophy. I've tried to divorce emotion from whatever conclusions I draw from my philosophy (unless they are positive ones). There's a topic for another thread. That and whether or not anti-depressants are effective (I didn't use them and I feel fantastic now). |
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