Thread: The determined "self"

Originally Posted by Alric

Your ego and sense of self isn't an illusion, it is the result of higher, complex brain functions and thought. Ego death is basically removing complex thought and experiencing a lower level of conciousness. Which is why people who talk about ego death often use drugs that hinder high brain functions.

In my opinion, people trying to experience things without a sense of self or ego are going backwards. They are trying to experience things more like animal would, where they are just in the moment, and not really thinking about other things. What you want is a stronger sense of self, and experience things through intense logic, which is where you gain a truer understanding of the world around you.

Compare a shaman on hallucinogenic drugs who 'experiences' the world around them, to a scientist who actually understands how everything around them works. You would say the shaman has better spiritual understanding, but that spiritual understanding is entirely made up, which is why religions are totally different depending on where and what time period you lived in. Mean while, science is correct and is provable, and while it has gotten better as time passes it doesn't change based on where you live. Who actually has a better understanding of the world? The scientist does, by far.

I don't think that they hinder brain function. Meditation has been shown to lead to cognitive enhancement and spiritual insight. Also, there have been experiments where scientists take LSD and it makes them more creative and hence more capable of solving complex problems. Also, a scientist who believes in free will is obviously missing something from his understanding. Even if he can repeat the argument against free will, I feel that there is a difference between being able to formulate a proof and then "experiencing" it. I as much as anyone else value knowledge and understanding over wishy-washy spirituality which is why I like the egodeath.com website.

Also, I've heard somewhere that 50% of physicists at some lab were on anti-depressants. Some things take priority over metaphysical understanding in my opinion.

They are probably on it because of stress, at least that would be my guess. Meditation, and even prayer, are exercises in thinking, and if you take the metaphysical aspect away from them, they are still actually useful to think through and work out problems you are having.

I personally think sitting quietly and contemplating an issue, has the same result or meditation or prayer. Which is why I usually say medition is a good thing, though often the technique for meditation doesn't really matter, the biggest issue is having a time free of distractions just to think about stuff.

Originally Posted by Alric

They are probably on it because of stress, at least that would be my guess. Meditation, and even prayer, are exercises in thinking, and if you take the metaphysical aspect away from them, they are still actually useful to think through and work out problems you are having.

I personally think sitting quietly and contemplating an issue, has the same result or meditation or prayer. Which is why I usually say medition is a good thing, though often the technique for meditation doesn't really matter, the biggest issue is having a time free of distractions just to think about stuff.

Contemplative thinking is a good tool in life, but it is not meditation. Of course, many schools argue a balance between philosophical understanding and devotional meditation.

Meditation is where one focuses on the act of experience itself. This has a far different effect from normal thinking. While this may not coincide with what people think meditation is, this kind of meditation is the type we're referring to. To help you understand better, this meditation essentially means one place their attention alertly upon its function of attention.

Originally Posted by Alric

Ego death is basically removing complex thought and experiencing a lower level of conciousness.

I would say it's experiencing the Unconscious, which is the vast, broad murky environment in which consciousness is a feeble candle flame.

Originally Posted by Alric

In my opinion, people trying to experience things without a sense of self or ego are going backwards. They are trying to experience things more like animal would, where they are just in the moment, and not really thinking about other things. What you want is a stronger sense of self, and experience things through intense logic, which is where you gain a truer understanding of the world around you.

Yes... going backwards - back to the simple understanding through experience of animals and children - something we tend to forget about as anxiety-driven adults. I see consciousness as essentially left-brain activity - characterized by linear, focused, and very limited thought. When these higher functions are shut down, as in when we dream (normal, not lucid) we expand into the right brain experience - which is non-linear and broad. Most people as adults get stuck in purely conscious thought patterns... always thinking about their schedules and goals and hurrying and worrying. Right-brain/unconscious states tend to be characterized by tranquility acceptance and love.

Originally Posted by Alric

Compare a shaman on hallucinogenic drugs who 'experiences' the world around them, to a scientist who actually understands how everything around them works. You would say the shaman has better spiritual understanding, but that spiritual understanding is entirely made up, which is why religions are totally different depending on where and what time period you lived in. Mean while, science is correct and is provable, and while it has gotten better as time passes it doesn't change based on where you live. Who actually has a better understanding of the world? The scientist does, by far.

Made up? Or experienced? The basic core of most religions is the same - it's only the denominational churches and surface trappings that are different. Religion and spirituality are based on opening up to love and acceptance. What does science have to do with that? Science is merely a way of studying things... gaining data in order to help us understand better. Science shows us the physical aspects of things, but we need spirituality to show us the rest. Scientists will be the first to admit they don't "understand everything" and that what science can demonstrate is limited.