Is it possible to know what's true?

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Originally posted by Gwendolyn
So what truth is there to know? People believe what they want to, and most of that isn't the way things really are. So why is the truth even relevant if people have their own sets of truths? I guess it really doesn't matter if it's possible to know the truth......I mean, what if the 'truth' doesn't exist?

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If truth doesn't exist then our reasoning process is incorrect and therefore it is completely useless to think at all because the universe is completely illogical.

That possibility must be exculded.

As for personal truth, that is the only kind of truth there can be. A "shared truth" is just an individuals interpretation of a communication. If you say "look a bear!" and I see something that I identify as a bear it does not mean that you saw a bear let alone that the bear exists, it merely means that I heard you say that there is a bear there.

A great deal of neuroscience and psychology is devoted to preserving the integrity of the scientific worldview in the face of dreams and hallucinations. If senses are the justification for a worldview, and certain sensations contradict the worldview, they must be explained away.

A dream is, as far as any conscious being is concerned, just as real as reality. The universe consists of what we sense, and any beliefs beyond that are unjustified.

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Originally posted by Belisarius


If truth doesn't exist then our reasoning process is incorrect and therefore it is completely useless to think at all because the universe is completely illogical.

That possibility must be exculded.

As for personal truth, that is the only kind of truth there can be. *A \"shared truth\" is just an individuals interpretation of a communication. *If you say \"look a bear!\" and I see something that I identify as a bear it does not mean that you saw a bear let alone that the bear exists, it merely means that I heard you say that there is a bear there. *

A great deal of neuroscience and psychology is devoted to preserving the integrity of the scientific worldview in the face of dreams and hallucinations. *If senses are the justification for a worldview, and certain sensations contradict the worldview, they must be explained away.

A dream is, as far as any conscious being is concerned, just as real as reality. *The universe consists of what we sense, and any beliefs beyond that are unjustified.

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Was there a universe before there was consciousness? If not, then how could the existence of consciousness been created?

Also, how could the universe be illogical if logic is by definition in line with reality?

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Originally posted by Universal Mind


Was there a universe before there was consciousness? *If not, then how could the existence of consciousness been created? *

Also, how could the universe be illogical if logic is by definition in line with reality?

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1. I don't know and I can't know.
2. " "
3. Logic isn't by definition in line with reality.

I'm not yet as knowledgeable on this topic as the rest of you, however I have been inspired by this discussion enough to research what my spiritual tradition has to say about Truth. The following link is what I found thusfar and I believe it may bring another small ray of light to this meditation in addition to the en-lightening (not fully mind you :D ) remarks already made by the rest of you.

namu amida butsu,
John

http://www.geocities.com/ryunyo/truth.html

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Originally posted by Belisarius


1. I don't know and I can't know.
2. \" * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * \"
3. Logic isn't by definition in line with reality.

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I disagree. Logic is the study of principles of reality, such as "If A = B and B = C, then A = C," and "If A, then B. Therefore, if not B, then not A." It is all about reality. That is why logical arguments are better than illogical arguments.

If logic is not by definition in line with reality, can you give me an example of an argument that is truly logical and based on a true premise but is false? If your response is logical, what will be the relevance of its logical nature? Would an illogical response be just as in line with reality?

Logic proves that there was existence before there was consciousness. The original source of consciousness could not have been something conscious.

Conscious beings on Earth are insignificant little dots on a spec of dust floating around in an infinite universe. We are not so significant. The universe was here aeons before we were, and it will be here aeons after we are gone.

Truth comes in layers and each layer brings additional; freedom. Sometimes it's a little like traveling through a maze. It is useful and brings freedom of movement to know the next turn, but useless to speculate on the turn several corridors down. Each of us must solve the equation of where we are now, not where we will be in our imagination.

As one tunes in to the Oneness Principle the door to all truth becomes available, but even here it has to be absorbed bit by bit principle by principle into his consciousness.

It is possible to understand anything. It is merely a matter of focusing attention in the right direction. For example, if you want to learn algebra you do not begin by focussing on the second year course, but the beginning. As long as one starts focussing at the beginning he will have success.

This is what must be done until soul contact is achieved. Determination and power of will is one of the main achievements of this process. There is no ultimate truth, there is only the doorway to all truth which we continue to absorb through eternity.

When I was young I decided I wanted to write both the words and melodies to songs. Writing words was pretty easy, but how do you write a melody? There's no instruction for this. I had no idea how to do such a thing, but I focussed my attention on it. For a long time nothing happened and then one-day new melodies started coming to my mind.

Why did they come?

Because of the power of focussed attention and following the highest I knew even though I seemed to be groping in the dark.

When it registers with the soul and you find through the experience
that it works as it is applied to reality. Then you know it's true.

All truth is logical. And all things come to he who endures to the end as the Master has said.

Universal Mind

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Conscious beings on Earth are insignificant little dots on a spec of dust floating around in an infinite universe. We are not so significant.

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Some theoretical scientists say that \"one extra atom\" at the birth of the universe could have wiped out entire galaxies, or even the whole cosmos. If one atom is that important then consider yourself who is made of billions of atoms.[/quote]

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Universal Mind

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Conscious beings on Earth are insignificant little dots on a spec of dust floating around in an infinite universe. We are not so significant.

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Some theoretical scientists say that \"one extra atom\" at the birth of the universe could have wiped out entire galaxies, or even the whole cosmos. If one atom is that important then consider yourself who is made of billions of atoms.

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[/quote]

I have never come across that idea before. There are so many billions of galaxies that I am not convinced of much even if a few galaxies would have not otherwise existed. If it is true that the whole cosmos would have been wiped out, which I have not been convinced of at this point, then I see two possibilities. Perhaps there is a metaphysical principle that encapsulates time and matter, and it resulted in the exact number of existing atoms because that number was necessary for the necessary galactic situation to exist, according to the principle or a subprinciple. Or perhaps the universe would have otherwise existed in an entirely different form. I have always thought that we should not get too caught up in time, matter, the laws of physics, and possibly even the laws of math as we know them. The universe we know is just one way things can happen.

Whatever the case is, we are still tiny little dots on a spec of dust floating around in an infinite universe. I don't think the universe revolves that much around the consciousness of humans. Maybe, according to the atom number theory, without one tiny little thing existing, the universe would be completely different, but that doesn't mean there is no existence at all without human consciousness.

Truth in the ultimate sense is impossible for humans. Mankind is tainted and evil, we cannot obtain something as pure as truth.

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Originally posted by Cole5250
Truth in the ultimate sense is impossible for humans. Mankind is tainted and evil, we cannot obtain something as pure as truth.

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Is that true?

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Is it possible to know what's true?[/b]

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no. truth is relative.

there are different layers of truth.

ie: a truth for the world we live in is that people are different. he's different from her... etc.

would you say that this is a truth? relative to us? i look at myself and i look at you and we don't look alike. well on a cellular scale we are more alike and, yet more, on the atomic scale we are exactly the same.

the point is this: truth is relative and, being a manifestation of the human mind, has a tendency to change through the times, making it a relative truth. and you can claim that you know what is and what is not true, but in all actuality, you'll never know.

hmmm, or maybe i'm rambling.

or we can play the keats game...

beauty is truth, truth beauty. that is all you know on earth, and all you need to know.

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Is that True?[/b]

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Good Point.

Truth remains truth no matter what you Fantasize about.

If you have an orange in your hand and claim it is a apple. Truth is not being relative. You are just saying something that isn't true.

The only reason it seems relative is that our understanding of it keeps expanding. Truth is eternal and unchanging, and infinite. But not relative.