• Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views




    View Poll Results: Should capital punishment be allowed in any country?

    Voters
    39. You may not vote on this poll
    • No, it is barbaric and hypocritical

      20 51.28%
    • Who cares about it

      3 7.69%
    • Yes, some people should not be given the chance to re-offend

      11 28.21%
    • Yes, an eye for an eye

      5 12.82%
    Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast
    Results 1 to 25 of 83
    1. #1
      Member
      Join Date
      Dec 2004
      Location
      Australia
      Posts
      650
      Likes
      0

      Capital Punishment

      What I want to know is this: how can a country - a modern, free democracy - ever justify the death sentence as a means of punishment. We live in a modern world with an intelligent and understanding society, this stuff should not be happening... we've progressed beyond the stone age, people.

      Society can now afford to deal with people appropriatley and in other ways than simply killing them. Killing a serial killer is not justifiablre and does not achieve anything, and that's not even taking into account the fact that it is possible you may kill an innocent person.

      It kind of makes me angry when a country like America can claim to be 'god's country' or a land of the free and for democracy, when it's justice system still resorts to something as vulgar and unthinking as execution.

    2. #2
      Member Gargen's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2005
      Location
      Massachusetts
      Posts
      124
      Likes
      0
      ghandi once said "an eye for an eye will leave the world blind" and who can disagree with ghandi

    3. #3
      おやすみなさい。 Achievements:
      1 year registered Veteran First Class 10000 Hall Points Made Friends on DV
      Rakkantekimusouka's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Gender
      Location
      Outside of reality looking in...
      Posts
      1,904
      Likes
      5
      Giving people life sentences is much better then killing them.
      Now permanently residing at [The] Danny Phantom Online [Community], under the name Mabaroshiwoou.

      Adopted OvErEchO, ndpendentlyhappy
      Raised ShiningShadow

    4. #4
      Member Hate's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Kangasala, Finland
      Posts
      594
      Likes
      0
      On the other hand, capital punishment can function as a fear factor. If you know you can be sentenced to death, you will think twice before killing those people.

      I still think it's a bit harsh, and shouldn't be used in modern countries with modern judiciary. And executing innocent people really is a big risk. Better safe than sorry.
      Don't think about those damn kangaroos.

    5. #5
      Member bradybaker's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2004
      Location
      Canada
      Posts
      2,160
      Likes
      4
      I support capital punishment, but only if there is not even a shred of doubt as to who comitted the crime. That would be DNA evidence in most cases.

      Certain people deserve to die.

      i.e. Timothy McVeigh
      "This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time."



      The Emancipator MySpace

    6. #6
      Member
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      australia
      Posts
      613
      Likes
      0
      Originally posted by hate
      On the other hand, capital punishment can function as a fear factor. If you know you can be sentenced to death, you will think twice before killing those people.
      Maybe it's just me, but I'd consider the prospect of rotting in prison for 60 years a bit more frightening than death.

      Oh, and the answer: I'd consider supporting capital punishment if I thought any legal system was up to giving objective, correct descisions. So.... not very soon?

    7. #7
      Member Kaniaz's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2004
      Gender
      Location
      England
      Posts
      5,441
      Likes
      9
      I agree with capital punishment. The life sentences in this country (not sure about America) can be finished in only twelve years provided you are well behaved in jail. And personally, I'm not too hot on having to walk outside, and stroll past guys who could potentially be people that killed somebody else, and for all I know, might reoffend (who is to say that there isn't something a bit off in their brain?). Costs more money, another life taken - not good.

      It also does act as a 'fear factor'. It's like in schools, where if you know that you're only going to get a quick telling off, you are a hundred times more inclined to just muck around in class. But like old schools, where kids got a slap over the hand with a ruler (and more) if they decided to act like crappers, they weren't so inclined to mess around. Sure, it still happened, but not so much.

      I think if I had killed somebody, dying would be alot nicer than going into a jail for god knows how long, with horrible conditions that society would expect a murderer to get. And I think if I was killed one day, I'd certainly want that person killed in return. If only to balance things out. By no means do I want the guy who just shot me to walk out of jail in twelve years.

      However, I'd only want it to be used when it's definite who did it. If there's so much as a shred of doubt as to what happened, a life sentence will do just fine...

    8. #8
      Member
      Join Date
      Feb 2004
      Posts
      5,165
      Likes
      711
      So if there is a little doubt its ok to send them to jail to waste the rest of their life away instead of killing them? I don't see a difference. You always want to make sure you have the right guy, and if your sure enough to send him to jail for the rest of his life, you should also be sure enough to kill him.

      Capital punishment doesn't really scare anyone though. Its a joke. You can get death and then you can spend 15 years in the court system appealing it. I am against it when it costs 3 million more to kill him than to throw him in jail for life.

    9. #9
      Consciousness Itself Universal Mind's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Gender
      Location
      Everywhere
      Posts
      12,871
      Likes
      1046
      I change my mind back and forth on this issue all the time.

      First of all, the U.S. does not really apply it in an effective way. The threat of being killed does deter a lot of people from killing others, but it doesn't work on everybody. And our system arbitrarily sentences some convicted murderers to death, but only a small percentage. When the sentence is so rare and arbitrary, there is no way pschopaths who don't have much to live for are going to worry about it. The executions also happen so far down the road that they don't even seem like they will happen in a person's life time. Twenty years into the future is lifetimes away to somebody who has little thought about the concept of next week. If it were guaranteed that all convicted murderers would be exectuted within a year after a maximum of one appeal, our murder rate would go down signigicantly, although it would not disappear.

      Furthermore, I have no sympathy for the murderers of the innocent. They are despiccable life forms that do not deserve life. I hate them with a passion and wish them the worst. They also owe a debt to the people who loved their victims. The will for revenge is very real and overwhelming. It is within everybody, no matter how holier than thou they may claim to be. If somebody kills somebody you love, there is no way around wanting to get the killer back really hard. It is not something to be discounted or ignored. So, a murderer has caused horrific emotional pain for those who loved his victim and forced them into wanting revenge against him. Therefore, he owes it to them to have their revenge. He owes them his life.

      The one thing that makes me question the death penalty and perhaps be against it is the fact that there are also people who love the murderer. Killing him puts them through about the same thing the victim's friends and family members have to deal with. But there is an innocence difference that the killer's supporters can take SOME comfort in while the supporters of the victim only feel horrific injustice and disbelief. I am just not sure how much the level of comfort makes a difference.

      One way or another, the murderers of the innocent do not have my sympathy one bit. If we catch Bin Laden, I hope he has his limbs cut off and is immediately thrown into a tank of bull sharks. He has ordered the deaths of thousands of innocents and freaked out millions. His family disowned him. If anybody loves him, I don't think their numbers come even close to comparing, so he has to go. I definately support the executions of some. Hussein, Zarqawi, and Zawihiri can be boiled to death. That will be great.

      As far as the Christianity point, I am an atheist, but I will speak for the Christians. The original interpretation of the Commandment says, "Thou shalt not murder," not "Thou shalt not kill." Exectution of a convicted murderer is not murder. Murder involves killing an innocent person deliberately without legal justification or exception, and that is what it meant when the Old Testament was written.
      How do you know you are not dreaming right now?

    10. #10
      Member dreamtamer007's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 2005
      Location
      New Jersey
      Posts
      781
      Likes
      1
      If someone is found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt for a crime as viscous as murder, hears what I think. The most important action would be to remove them from harming others. The second thing I think is as others have said; there is a chance that they may not have committed the actual crime. Beyond reasonable doubt is not enough to sentence them to death. Even if they are guilty of the crime, who are we to take a life we did not create. I think the only solution is to set aside an island somewhere where they can fight among their selves if that’s what they want to do. A country for criminals. But not allow them to develop with the power to hurt anyone else. Sort of like an Iraq with bars around it. Lol. Then if it was ever discovered that one of them where innocent, they could be brought home.
      All intelligent creatures Dream
      LD's 12 And counting..
      I do not wish to hear about the moon from someone who has not been there.
      Mark Twain

    11. #11
      Member
      Join Date
      Dec 2004
      Location
      Australia
      Posts
      650
      Likes
      0
      Woo I think I've opened a veritable can of worms here...

      First of all, the deterrent factor... If somebody is a murderer or a serial killer, then they obviously have little regard for life, and therefore little regard for their own. I think it's safe to say that if you have enough hatred in you, or are twisted enough to get pleasure from killing somebody then you are hardly going to sit down before hand and work out the legal ramifications. Most killings are done without thought, viciously and violently. The only possible exception would be planned, plotted murders.

      I agree that the serial killer or whoever owes a debt to the families of the victims. I for one would much rather want the killer suffer in prison for the rest of their life than to watch them being executed. Some say that the family should be allowed revenge... this is complete bullshit. If the family somehow gets enjoyment and revenge from seeing the killer be executed, then they themselves are no better than the killer - how can you get any sort of satisfaction from watching somebody die??? If you feel you are repayed or if you get satisfaction from seeing a human being be killed, then you yourself must be very sick and twisted.

      I beleive that in first world countries these days we have more than enough resources, and we are civilised enough to sentence such people to life imprisonment rather than execution. Surely if people are worried about killers being set free with minimal jail terms then the most logical and sensible way to deal with this is to reformat your legal system and bring in tougher laws and stricter jail sentences, rather than saying caveman-style "he hit me so I hit him" surely we as humans are more intelligent than that.

      As for the Christian argument (i'm not christian, so I may get a few things wrong) but I beleive that ne of Jesus' main teachings was forgiveness. If a man slaps you, turn the other cheek. I do not see Jesus saying at any point in the bible "if someone slaps you then slap them back because they deserve it and should never be forgiven." I do not know how anyone can read the bible and somehow find a way to justify killing another human being. Taking the whole christian teaching, then the ppunishment for the person that kills another human is that they spend all eternity in hell. The punishment for the person that kills the murderer will be exactly the same, for they did not turn the other cheek.

      Of course murderers should be stopped from killing, but there are better ways than by executing them.

    12. #12
      Consciousness Itself Universal Mind's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Gender
      Location
      Everywhere
      Posts
      12,871
      Likes
      1046
      Roller, I don't think families are sick for wanting revenge against the killers of their family members. I have never been inside your head, but I can assure you that if somebody killed your child or mother, you would want the son of a bitch dead and would love to kill him yourself. You are not on his level if you do. You are acting out of retaliation, but he wasn't. That's the difference. He put the overwhelming desire for revenge in you, and he has to let you get rid of it somehow.

      I am not a Christian, nor do I think their belief system is completely rational, so I am not going to take up for Christianity all day. I have said many times in this very forum that Christianity doesn't add up in my view. You might have a point with the Jesus's forgiveness concept. Amethyst Star, Evangel, or one of the other resident Christians should comment on that.
      How do you know you are not dreaming right now?

    13. #13
      Member bradybaker's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2004
      Location
      Canada
      Posts
      2,160
      Likes
      4
      I think the only solution is to set aside an island somewhere where they can fight among their selves if that’s what they want to do. A country for criminals.[/b]
      They tried that, it's called Australia.
      "This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time."



      The Emancipator MySpace

    14. #14
      Member
      Join Date
      Dec 2004
      Location
      Australia
      Posts
      650
      Likes
      0
      [quote][quote]
      I have never been inside your head, but I can assure you that if somebody killed your child or mother, you would want the son of a bitch dead and would love to kill him yourself.
      Well if a man came up to my mother and chopped her head off with an axe, of course my initial feeling would be to grab an axe and go and chop his head off. What if I went and did that the very next day? That would make me an axe murderer, too. His anger and hatred has been transferred to me, and I have descended to his level.
      After I get over the initial anger, I would want justice - proper justice. One of the key aspects of a justice system is that it has to be unanimous - every person has to be treated the same, and every person must be protected by it, and must be held accountable to it, everything is equal, and no exceptions made. If a justice system lets one person get away with a crime, then by definition nobody is safe, because there is a chance that you might be the victim of such a crime.

      Therefore, a justice system must protect all life, and all lives must be equal no matter who they are or what they have done, and if it fails to recognise this equality then every person is at risk. A justice system that deals out death as a punishment for death is an incomplete justice system, for if every person is to be safe, then there can be no condoning killing.
      The proper justice for the killer of my mother would not be death, it would be a life imprisonment, and the chance to rehabilitate.

    15. #15
      Member Achievements:
      1 year registered Veteran First Class 10000 Hall Points
      Merck's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Gender
      Location
      Slidell, LA
      Posts
      530
      Likes
      2
      DJ Entries
      1

      Re: Capital Punishment

      Originally posted by When Roller made this excellent topic he
      What I want to know is this: how can a country - a modern, free democracy - ever justify the death sentence as a means of punishment. We live in a modern world with an intelligent and understanding society, this stuff should not be happening... we've progressed beyond the stone age, people.
      Well apparently our society isn't intelligent or understanding enough because people still murder other people. I'm all for the death penalty so long as there is irrefutable evidence of the crime. I feel that the penalty shouldn't be limited to murderers only. I think pedophiles, rapists, and traitors should all be considered for the penalty on a case by case basis of course. Some criminals can't be reformed and are better off dead and not being a burden on society.

    16. #16
      Member Hate's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Kangasala, Finland
      Posts
      594
      Likes
      0

      Re: Capital Punishment

      Originally posted by Merck
      Well apparently our society isn't intelligent or understanding enough because people still murder other people.
      Those people murdering other people are individuals, not the society. Individuals may not be intelligent or understanding, but a society should be. The main purpose of the society is to provide people with safety and similar rights, and that can be achieved only if the society understands people.

      Anyway, life is the most precious gift we have been granted, no matter whether it was by God or something else, and it's something we should protect. Even though the murderer killed a person or even several persons, is it really necessary to take one more life? There's no more or less valuable lives, every life is just as valuable. Life in itself is an absolute value. People do want revenge, but it doesn't provide us with anything good.

      I think the only justified execution would be if it was proved that not killing the person would lead to the death of more people.
      Don't think about those damn kangaroos.

    17. #17
      Consciousness Itself Universal Mind's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Gender
      Location
      Everywhere
      Posts
      12,871
      Likes
      1046
      Originally posted by Roller


      The proper justice for the killer of my mother would not be death, it would be a life imprisonment, and the chance to rehabilitate.
      I seriously doubt that if you were ever really in that situation you would give the slightest damn about the killer's rehabilitation. I don't think you would want him eating three meals a day and playing basketball either.
      How do you know you are not dreaming right now?

    18. #18
      Member Achievements:
      1 year registered Veteran First Class 10000 Hall Points
      Merck's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Gender
      Location
      Slidell, LA
      Posts
      530
      Likes
      2
      DJ Entries
      1

      Re: Capital Punishment

      Originally posted by Hate
      I think the only justified execution would be if it was proved that not killing the person would lead to the death of more people.
      Well the death penalty currently isn't given all that often. It all depends on the degree of murder. And again I like that its done on a case by case basis. But I still feel that some criminals should not be given another chance to commit another heinous crime.

      I can only think of one single acceptable alternative to the death penalty. That alternative would be to place the prisoner somewhere that would keep him/her confined and forever keep them away from society without costing the taxpayers money. If that could be devised I would definitely support it. Oh and we can't make it too enjoyable either.


      EDIT: Okay I just thought of another punishment that would do if the death penalty wasn't allowed. Just keep the bastard kept in solitary confinement until they die of natural causes. And yes they should be given food and water, I don't mean to starve them to death. I don't know about everyone else but solitary confinement for years and years would scare the ever loving crapola out of me.

    19. #19
      Member InTheMoment's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      (see Username)
      Posts
      1,328
      Likes
      1
      Merck wrote:
      <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
      I feel that the penalty shouldn't be limited to murderers only. I think pedophiles, rapists, and traitors should all be considered for the penalty on a case by case basis of course. Some criminals can't be reformed and are better off dead and not being a burden on society.[/b]
      [/b][/quote]

      I'm in complete agreement with Kev here...in fact I think all felony sentences should not only increase in severity but also in the expedience of administering the punishment.

      If a few innocent people are wrongfully put to death then so be it...it's a system of law and balance. If you execute 100% of the incarcerated (death row) felons and say 30% are wrongully convicted (that being a grossly over estimate according to any figures) then you have at least rid the the prison system of 70% of its "dangerous" criminals that could potentially harm again.

      Technology and forensic science has improved greatly over the past 20 years and I believe with that our ability to determine guilt and innocence has also improved. Like many have already said in this post...if you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty of an executable felony, then he/she or should be put too death in a timely manner with no more than one appeal.
      Hide the kids...Uncle ITM is back!
      My pics

    20. #20
      Member Hate's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Kangasala, Finland
      Posts
      594
      Likes
      0

      Re: Capital Punishment

      Originally posted by Merck+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Merck)</div>
      <!--QuoteBegin-Hate
      I think the only justified execution would be if it was proved that not killing the person would lead to the death of more people.
      Well the death penalty currently isn't given all that often. It all depends on the degree of murder. And again I like that its done on a case by case basis. But I still feel that some criminals should not be given another chance to commit another heinous crime.[/b]
      Often? What I meant, was that an execution would be justified if it could be proved that otherwise more people would die, not that if it was likely that more people would die.

      If the murderers that become executed would have mended their ways and never killed anyone else, it would have been a needless execution, and therefore not justified. On the other hand if the other murderers that didn't become executed killed more people, an execution would have been justified.

      The only hard thing is that you should be 100% sure that leaving the person alive would lead to the death of more people, and you can't reliably predict the future. Besides there are other means of preventing people from doing crimes, and those should be used over capital punishment.
      Don't think about those damn kangaroos.

    21. #21
      Member InTheMoment's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      (see Username)
      Posts
      1,328
      Likes
      1
      Harri wrote:
      <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
      If the murderers that become executed would have mended their ways and never killed anyone else, it would have been a needless execution, and therefore not justified. On the other hand if the other murderers that didn't become executed killed more people, an execution would have been justified. [/b]
      [/b][/quote]

      Most convicted criminals repeat their unlawful actions despite being imprisoned. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/ I say why take any chances...if the convicted is found guilty (beyond a reasonable doubt) then by all means put them to death. If they once had a purpose in life then they have forfeited that goal by the unlawful taking of another persons life.

      Harri wrote:
      <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
      The only hard thing is that you should be 100% sure that leaving the person alive would lead to the death of more people, and you can't reliably predict the future.[/b]
      [/b][/quote]
      Read through the provided link, it shows an overwhelming amount of data that correlates with criminals being repeat offenders (especially in the cases of sex crimes). I say why take the chance?

      Besides there are other means of preventing people from doing crimes, and those should be used over capital punishment.[/b]
      Ok ok...I guess I'm not above torture and/or maiming the convicted to dissuade them from committing crimes in the future. I say burn there eyes out...I mean how many blind murderers have you ever heard of before?
      Hide the kids...Uncle ITM is back!
      My pics

    22. #22
      Member ronso's Avatar
      Join Date
      Nov 2004
      Posts
      101
      Likes
      0
      I don't know if someone already mentioned this, but, capital punishment is proved NOT to work as a fear factor.

      I do not support the capital punishment.
      hey

    23. #23
      Consciousness Itself Universal Mind's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Gender
      Location
      Everywhere
      Posts
      12,871
      Likes
      1046
      Originally posted by ronso
      I don't know if someone already mentioned this, but, capital punishment is proved NOT to work as a fear factor. *

      I do not support the capital punishment.
      It might not work on Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer, but it means something to most people. It would be enough to make the difference for me (if I hypothetically would otherwise want to kill people). That variable alone would be enough to stop me. How about you?
      How do you know you are not dreaming right now?

    24. #24
      Member
      Join Date
      Dec 2004
      Location
      Australia
      Posts
      650
      Likes
      0

      It might not work on Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer, but it means something to most people. It would be enough to make the difference for me (if I hypothetically would otherwise want to kill people). That variable alone would be enough to stop me. How about you?
      If a person is motivated enough and crazy enough to want to kill somebody, then surely they have already proven that they hold no regard for life. I hardly think that an axe murderer sits down before running to someone's house and works out the legal ramifications. People that murder obviously think they will get away with it, and so execution as a deterrent is null and void.


      Read through the provided link, it shows an overwhelming amount of data that correlates with criminals being repeat offenders (especially in the cases of sex crimes). I say why take the chance?
      Easy. Extend jail terms, even life imprisonment if you must. The cost of keeping them alive? This cost actually is much less then the lenghty and numerous court appeals given to those people on Death Row. These days many people are wary of sentencing an innocent person, and so the appeals are therefore required. The cost of court time, lawyers for the defense, for the prosecution - this all adds up. As soon as a spark of media interest is seen then the case can drag on for years and years.


      I seriously doubt that if you were ever really in that situation you would give the slightest damn about the killer's rehabilitation. I don't think you would want him eating three meals a day and playing basketball either.
      Well firstly, you don't know me. If a murderer killed my mother, and it was up to me to decide whether he should be executed or not, and I said yes then I would view myself as a murderer in turn, for an action of mine lead to the death of another human (and yes, he is still a human whether he kills someone or not.)

      Secondly well yes I would want him in jail. For while he might be eating three meals a day and playing basketball, he would be doing that for the REST OF HIS LIFE. He would be stuck in his concrete cell, never again would he stand on a beach and feel the sand bvetween his toes. Never again would he travel the world and meet new people... never again will he watch the sun set behind some mountains, and more importantly never again will he kill another human. Yes, I do like the sound of that as punishment thank you very much, it is much better than simply putting him out of his misery.

      some people say that by violating the rules of a society and killing someone, then the person has therefore revoked their rights to the protection of that society. Well maybe that is the case - the obvious solution is to put them in jail where they can no longer live from the benefits of the society, no longer watch big-screen movies, no longer go to amusement parks, no longer mingle with other people of their choice. That might seem bareable at first, which it probably is, but after twenty one years or so it is actually quite a big punishment.

      Well that's all I have to say for now.
      btw none of this is to be taken personally, sometimes I get a bit carried away with my viewpoint [/quote]

    25. #25
      Consciousness Itself Universal Mind's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Gender
      Location
      Everywhere
      Posts
      12,871
      Likes
      1046
      He will be able to mingle with people who think just like he does. He will very possibly be able to watch the sunset. Some prisons are in the mountains, and if so, he will be able to see them every day. He might see the ocean from the prison and be assigned to pick up trash on a beach. (Alatraz, the relatively terrible prison Al Capone went to, was on an island in San Francisco Bay.) He will be able to kill people again (guards, prison mates, wardens, prison teachers, janitors, cafeteria workers, riot swat team members, people like you he can kill if he escapes, etc.). He will be able to watch movies and television. He will be able to play cards with the kind of people he would be hanging out with if he weren't in prison. He will be able to listen to a stereo. He will be able to smoke cigarettes and have access to drugs brought in on the underground. He will be able to live... not a life you or I would prefer, but I would choose it way over death. The scumbag would deserve to be as dead as digested fried rice. My only hangup is that his family wouldn't deserve for him to be dead, for all we know.
      How do you know you are not dreaming right now?

    Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •