• Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views




    Results 1 to 24 of 24
    Like Tree8Likes
    • 1 Post By Midori
    • 1 Post By Solarflare
    • 2 Post By Darkmatters
    • 1 Post By Darkmatters
    • 2 Post By juroara
    • 1 Post By Taosaur

    Thread: Waking vs. Dreaming

    1. #1
      Member Midori's Avatar
      Join Date
      Nov 2011
      LD Count
      9
      Posts
      66
      Likes
      41
      DJ Entries
      45

      Waking vs. Dreaming

      "Once Zhuangzi dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Zhuangzi. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Zhuangzi. But he didn't know if he was Zhuangzi who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Zhuangzi." (quoted from wikipedia)

      The generally accepted idea is that waking life is real, and dreaming is an illusion, but how can one know for certain that this is true? Could not dreaming be real, and waking the illusion? Or could they are both be real, or both illusory?

      Discuss.
      VexedVagabond likes this.

    2. #2
       Solarflare's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2011
      Gender
      Location
      Colony 9
      Posts
      4,452
      Likes
      1650
      DJ Entries
      67
      I have a lot of proof, but the main one is

      You cant die in dreams.
      VexedVagabond likes this.

    3. #3
      Member Achievements:
      Created Dream Journal Referrer Bronze 5000 Hall Points Tagger First Class Populated Wall Veteran First Class
      Arra's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2011
      Posts
      3,838
      Likes
      3886
      DJ Entries
      50
      We can't know anything 'for certain', but that doesn't mean we can't be fairly certain. Dreaming being an illusion, and waking life being real, is the best explanation for the effects we perceive, so it's more likely true and therefore more worth believing.

    4. #4
      Banned
      Join Date
      May 2008
      LD Count
      don't know
      Gender
      Posts
      1,602
      Likes
      1144
      DJ Entries
      17
      We also have a waking life explanation for dreams in terms of neurology, psychology, etc. There's not much to suggest that dreams are independent of waking life reality.

    5. #5
      Diamonds And Rust Achievements:
      Veteran First Class Vivid Dream Journal Referrer Bronze Populated Wall 5000 Hall Points Made lots of Friends on DV Tagger First Class
      Darkmatters's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2009
      Gender
      Location
      Center of the universe
      Posts
      6,952
      Likes
      5837
      DJ Entries
      172
      Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaerer View Post
      We also have a waking life explanation for dreams in terms of neurology, psychology, etc. There's not much to suggest that dreams are independent of waking life reality.
      Of course we also know that the signals that reach the brain when we're dreaming are EXACTLY the same as the signals that reach it when we're awake - only real difference being that the dreaming signals are generated from within and the waking life signals come in through our senses. So while it's true that waking life has a consistency and logic that dream life lacks, we can still only connect with the world through those very same signals that we dream through. We just take it on faith that what's coming in is actually a truthful recreation of what's actually 'out there'.

    6. #6
      Banned
      Join Date
      May 2008
      LD Count
      don't know
      Gender
      Posts
      1,602
      Likes
      1144
      DJ Entries
      17
      Obviously our senses are only the tip of the iceberg, but show consistent patterns nonetheless. Gotta be some reason why.

    7. #7
      D.V. Editor-in-Chief Original Poster's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 2006
      LD Count
      Lucid Now
      Gender
      Location
      3D
      Posts
      8,263
      Likes
      4135
      DJ Entries
      11
      Quote Originally Posted by Darkmatters View Post
      Of course we also know that the signals that reach the brain when we're dreaming are EXACTLY the same as the signals that reach it when we're awake - only real difference being that the dreaming signals are generated from within and the waking life signals come in through our senses. So while it's true that waking life has a consistency and logic that dream life lacks, we can still only connect with the world through those very same signals that we dream through. We just take it on faith that what's coming in is actually a truthful recreation of what's actually 'out there'.
      We're more or less wired to dream at all times. The mechanism through which we take a cluttered mess and sort it into discernible objects is the same method through which we dream, neurologically speaking.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    8. #8
      Diamonds And Rust Achievements:
      Veteran First Class Vivid Dream Journal Referrer Bronze Populated Wall 5000 Hall Points Made lots of Friends on DV Tagger First Class
      Darkmatters's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2009
      Gender
      Location
      Center of the universe
      Posts
      6,952
      Likes
      5837
      DJ Entries
      172
      Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaerer View Post
      Obviously our senses are only the tip of the iceberg, but show consistent patterns nonetheless. Gotta be some reason why.
      Well yes, we assume that, and of course there's a vast preponderance of alignments between various senses and concepts - example, if I see a chair and I try to sit in it, I don't fall - I can sit. If I call someone and give them directions to my house they can find their way here.. these alignments do seem to indicate that what we experience of the waking world is consistent and 'real'.

      However -

      We can't get any proof. Any instruments we rely on we still have to read with those same senses.

      When we become lucid in a dream some of the logic circuitry kicks on, and suddenly dreams take on more consistency - become more vivid and 'lifelike'. Of course we can still fly etc... but what if the rest of the logic circuitry would kick in? While we're still dreaming... is there a chance the dream would become completely indistinguishable from waking life? Maybe that last little bit of logic circuitry would make dreams exactly like waking life?

      There's a book called The Fifth Agreement by don Miguel Ruiz and his son don Jose Ruiz that does an amazing job of explaining this. Essentially the brain builds a 'virtual model' of the world around us from electrical impulses it receives from all the sensory organs. Your eyes detect light and then create a complex series of electrical impulses that are sent via the Optic Nerve to the right section of the brain which then creates a sort of CGI 3-dimensional model from it. Signals from the other senses are added to it as well, and it's kept updated in real time with memories and ideas as to what might be going on behind you or around a corner where you can't sense anything.

      So, what this means is - the things we believe we're seeing we really aren't - we see a virtual reconstruction of them.

      This is EVERYTHING. Everything you've ever seen you haven't really seen. You've only seen your brain's reconstruction of it. Then if you feel it to corroborate - you're not really directly feeling anything - your brain is reconstructing signals sent by the nerves as electrical impulses. It's as if we're not really walking in nature - but were enclosed in a little control room inside the skull looking at monitors that show a reproduction of what's out there. And we have no way to go outside and check it it's accurate - there's no door or window. Only the monitors.

      Those monitors run a sort of screensaver program when we're sleeping - spontaneously generated images we call dreams. They're essentially made of chopped-up bits and pieces which are just like 'reality' - but put together in strange ways that make them surreal and weird. That's basically because the unconscious mind is doing the work and it's not logical and linear like the conscious mind - it doesn't house the language or logic circuits. It's creative and uses symbols rather than words (it can play with words too - but it doesn't use them as logically and concisely as the conscious mind does.).

      So - what if that's the only difference? That little bit of logic circuitry? What we call consciousness. It takes those same signals and weaves them into a more coherent pattern than the unconscious mind does. Who's to say that if that conscious circuitry kicked fully in while we're dreaming that dreams wouldn't become absolutely indistinguishable from waking reality?

      And if that's the case, then who can say that's not exactly what happens?
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 12-03-2011 at 08:52 PM.
      Wisher likes this.

    9. #9
      Banned
      Join Date
      May 2008
      LD Count
      don't know
      Gender
      Posts
      1,602
      Likes
      1144
      DJ Entries
      17
      I don't really see the cheapening of our experience by it being made up of electrical impulses, electromagnetism permeates all of nature, and it's our window into the rest of it. The suggestion that existence might just be a brain with electrical impulses somehow playing on it with a mind of it's own and built in "logical circuitry" that contains the laws of physics implies that the experience of other people is just that, it disregards the observation of other minds, other people, in the same situation as you, as they would just be electrical impulses on the (your) brain. In waking life we can look at a big bright ball in the sky and know it's not just electrical signals. We can prove this by finding out, through our sense of mathematics, that we evolved from a process just like that, it is necessary for our existence. How can this just be build in "logical circuitry" that your brain kicks in when your "awake" when other people confirm this objective connection, unless they are just electrical impulses in a universe that solely consists of your brain?

    10. #10
      Diamonds And Rust Achievements:
      Veteran First Class Vivid Dream Journal Referrer Bronze Populated Wall 5000 Hall Points Made lots of Friends on DV Tagger First Class
      Darkmatters's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2009
      Gender
      Location
      Center of the universe
      Posts
      6,952
      Likes
      5837
      DJ Entries
      172
      Whoah there - you're assuming some things I never said!!

      Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaerer View Post
      I don't really see the cheapening of our experience by it being made up of electrical impulses
      Me either. Did anybody say anything about cheapening? Our experiences have ALWAYS been the brain's construction from electrical signals, the only difference is we didn't know that until the scientific age. So nothing is cheapened by admitting it. Just as we've always been made of atoms and evolved from monkeys - discovering that fact shocked and frightened a lot of people who considered it a "cheapening" from their former assumptions (that apparently we were made from a ball of dirt.. ).


      Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaerer View Post
      The suggestion that existence might just be a brain with electrical impulses somehow playing on it...
      Did somebody suggest that? If so I missed it. I certainly said no such thing.


      Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaerer View Post
      it disregards the observation of other minds, other people, in the same situation as you, as they would just be electrical impulses on the (your) brain.
      Well, that's actually all they are TO THE BRAIN (or to the mind I should say). Just as we've never directly experienced anything in the 'real world' we have even less experience of other people. We see and feel and smell etc only their bodies, and we perceive their actions and words, and from this we construct an idea of what their personality might be like, which is at yet one MORE remove than the body that is only a construction from electrical signals. Essentially we watch that virtual body and listen to it, and we try to understand what kind of mind might be driving it. Our concept of that mind changes constantly (your concept of who YOU are is also in constant flux). They sometimes behave as we'd expect, and sometimes they surprise us substantially. Sometimes we surprise OURSELVES!



      Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaerer View Post
      In waking life we can look at a big bright ball in the sky and know it's not just electrical signals. We can prove this by finding out, through our sense of mathematics, that we evolved from a process just like that, it is necessary for our existence. How can this just be build in "logical circuitry" that your brain kicks in when your "awake" when other people confirm this objective connection, unless they are just electrical impulses in a universe that solely consists of your brain?
      "Sense of mathematics"? Lol what sensory organ is responsible for this sense? Sorry I know, you just used words carelessly. But this does illustrate that I can't completely trust what you confirm - because the media through which we communicate is untrustworthy. I can never be certain that you mean precisely what I think you mean, and sometimes people speak sloppily or just don't know what they're talking about... for exactly the same reasons that we can''t trust eyewitness reports for things like UFOs and ghost sightings, we can't completely trust what other people tell us (or even the evidence of our own senses). Not 100%.


      Try this - engage in my intellectual exercise for a moment. (That's all this is) - In a dream if you're standing next to me in a field and you see a flying cow and you ask me if I see it, can't I (dream character) say "Yes - I see it... it's a flying cow!"? - Isn't this confirmation, just like what you're talking about? And yet it comes from a dream character that you believe is only a projection of your own mind and has no true identity of its own. So you reject it as unreal.

      But you can't prove that anyone is any more real, can you?

      We're not going to see eye to eye on this unless we get in the same mindset - if I decide to start being pragmatic or you decide to engage in intellectual exercise as I am. I'm not saying I believe this (believe WHAT exactly... I haven't made any positive claims?) - You're the one making assumptions that I'm suggesting we're just brains... nothing I said really suggests that. I simply pointed out that we can't really prove that things are exactly as they seem, and that waking life is 'built' by our minds in exactly the same way, using exactly the same circuitry as dreams... it just has a bit more consistency to it. Yet even in waking life weird things happen that seem often dreamlike or surreal or mystical.

      The idea that we might just be brains or minds with no bodies is an assumption that can't be proven, just as the idea that waking life is exactly as we perceive it. Both assumptions. Yes one seems more likely than the other. We just can't prove it.

    11. #11
      widdershins modality Achievements:
      1 year registered Created Dream Journal Made lots of Friends on DV Veteran First Class Tagger First Class Referrer Bronze 10000 Hall Points
      Taosaur's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2004
      Gender
      Location
      Ohiopolis
      Posts
      4,843
      Likes
      1003
      DJ Entries
      19
      We can be fairly certain that our experiences of both dreams and waking life arise from extant phenomena. We can also be fairly certain that our experiences of both seemingly external phenomena and the self to which they become apparent arise substantially from our perceptive processes, and not from fixed qualities of either the object or subject, regardless of whether we are waking or dreaming.

      It is quite possible that we have greater insight into the realities of the dream state, at least when we awake, than many of us will ever have with regard to waking life.

      A Brahman asked the Buddha,

      "Are you a god?"

      "No, Brahman, I'm not a god."

      "Are you an angel?"

      "No", replied the Buddha.

      "You must be a spirit then?"

      "No, I'm not a spirit," said the Buddha.

      "Then what are you?"

      "I am awake."
      Dona Sutta: With Dona
      If you have a sense of caring for others, you will manifest a kind of inner strength in spite of your own difficulties and problems. With this strength, your own problems will seem less significant and bothersome to you. By going beyond your own problems and taking care of others, you gain inner strength, self-confidence, courage, and a greater sense of calm.Dalai Lama



    12. #12
      Banned
      Join Date
      May 2008
      LD Count
      don't know
      Gender
      Posts
      1,602
      Likes
      1144
      DJ Entries
      17
      All of my assumptions stemmed from this suggestion

      Quote Originally Posted by Darkmatters View Post
      This is EVERYTHING. Everything you've ever seen you haven't really seen. You've only seen your brain's reconstruction of it. Then if you feel it to corroborate - you're not really directly feeling anything - your brain is reconstructing signals sent by the nerves as electrical impulses. It's as if we're not really walking in nature - but were enclosed in a little control room inside the skull looking at monitors that show a reproduction of what's out there. And we have no way to go outside and check it it's accurate - there's no door or window. Only the monitors.
      Everything I "assumed" would be implied by this.

      Quote Originally Posted by Darkmatters View Post
      "Sense of mathematics"? Lol what sensory organ is responsible for this sense? Sorry I know, you just used words carelessly. But this does illustrate that I can't completely trust what you confirm - because the media through which we communicate is untrustworthy. I can never be certain that you mean precisely what I think you mean, and sometimes people speak sloppily or just don't know what they're talking about... for exactly the same reasons that we can''t trust eyewitness reports for things like UFOs and ghost sightings, we can't completely trust what other people tell us (or even the evidence of our own senses). Not 100%.
      I did mean "sense" of mathematics as virtually literal. Mathematics has predicted observations before we've observed them many times. This seems to be because our own logical structures are akin to the structure of nature, and we can use this as a tool of observation. I'm not saying we should trust what people say by any means, I'm saying that people can confirm observations and connections of things that we see in waking life independently. Dreaming has no such common ground, it really is just electrical impulses, observed and explained through consistent patterns in waking life. Is there any compelling evidence that it isn't just that and has some kind of reality of it's own?

    13. #13
      Diamonds And Rust Achievements:
      Veteran First Class Vivid Dream Journal Referrer Bronze Populated Wall 5000 Hall Points Made lots of Friends on DV Tagger First Class
      Darkmatters's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2009
      Gender
      Location
      Center of the universe
      Posts
      6,952
      Likes
      5837
      DJ Entries
      172
      Implied - exactly!!

      Implied means you think it MIGHT be what I meant. Ergo assumption. Actually there's no need to jump to either conclusion, or to any other for that matter. Ok, well it's clear you have no intention of engaging in intellectual exercise.

      Let me ask you - have you had many lucid dreams?

      I haven't - and I think it might have something to do with the fact that I'm such a diehard pragmatist and rational materialist. Have you read Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming?There's a very brief description in there of what I'm talking about - though you get a much better one in The Fifth Agreement. Many people (LaBerge included) seem to get their first lucid after encountering this idea and really thinking for a while about the fact that everything we see and experience in 'reality' is just a construct of electrical impulses - exactly like our dreams are.

      It's about opening up our perception of reality and thinking about it from something other than the traditional Western concept of pure rational materialism. And personally I can't get behind any kind of mysticism or solipsism, but since everything I said above is indisputably true (and in fact much more true than the assumptions we base the rational Western view on) I can get behind this and it just might open me up to more lucid experiences.

    14. #14
      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 2006
      Gender
      Location
      San Antonio, TX
      Posts
      3,865
      Likes
      1171
      DJ Entries
      144
      I know that we have science to present a body of evidence that there is a "real" world outside our heads

      But I only know this body of evidence through my senses! Senses aren't exactly an objective way to experience the world. I mean, there is no reason why I HAVE to experience the color blue the way I do. Maybe an alien species sees purple when they look at the same blue, I don't know. The relationship between waking life and dreams is we experience both in our heads! We really do.

      And science proving that there is a world outside our heads - well we experience that science in our heads too.

      What if you had a DREAM, where dream-scientists present to you a body of evidence proving beyond doubt that your dream is an objective reality? And what if you were LUCID and believed in this fool proof science shown to you?

      And then you woke up?

      You can believe your dream was a reality, and has always been a reality. Or you can say "damn just a dream" and go about your day.

      Science isn't why we think the world outside our head is real. No, the real reason why we think waking life is real is because of how consistent it is. We wake up where we fell asleep! Dreams rarely do that. And if we always dream where we left off the last dream, then hell yes must of us without a doubt would consider our dreams reality.

      FYI, that's actually why astral projectors believe they are astral projecting - because of a consistency from dream to dream

    15. #15
      Banned
      Join Date
      May 2008
      LD Count
      don't know
      Gender
      Posts
      1,602
      Likes
      1144
      DJ Entries
      17
      If our awake senses aren't objective receivers of an external reality, then why can two people look at the same event and agree upon exactly what happened?

    16. #16
      Diamonds And Rust Achievements:
      Veteran First Class Vivid Dream Journal Referrer Bronze Populated Wall 5000 Hall Points Made lots of Friends on DV Tagger First Class
      Darkmatters's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2009
      Gender
      Location
      Center of the universe
      Posts
      6,952
      Likes
      5837
      DJ Entries
      172
      How can you prove there's another person?

    17. #17
      Banned
      Join Date
      May 2008
      LD Count
      don't know
      Gender
      Posts
      1,602
      Likes
      1144
      DJ Entries
      17
      My senses, the consistent patterns they reveal, and the overall situation they imply (that we are members of a species of life that is the product of evolution). Considering that I am the only mind that exists, and other people are only consistent patterns it creates doesn't make sense to me considering our similarity. It would seem much more likely that we are in the same situation, and share a mutual realism.
      Last edited by Wayfaerer; 12-06-2011 at 04:34 AM.

    18. #18
      widdershins modality Achievements:
      1 year registered Created Dream Journal Made lots of Friends on DV Veteran First Class Tagger First Class Referrer Bronze 10000 Hall Points
      Taosaur's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 2004
      Gender
      Location
      Ohiopolis
      Posts
      4,843
      Likes
      1003
      DJ Entries
      19
      Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaerer View Post
      If our awake senses aren't objective receivers of an external reality, then why can two people look at the same event and agree upon exactly what happened?
      Our sense are not "objective receivers of an external reality." We know that much objectively

      Also, ask any police investigator and they will tell you, very rarely can "two people look at the same event and agree upon exactly what happened."

      Objectivity is a mental stance taken by subjects, nothing more. It is a very useful tool, but not a higher reality. Objective properties, however empirically established, still constitute a statement of the relationship of the non-subject world to a body of subjects, often a hypothetical totality of subjects. Assuming that our shared perspective is identical to "reality" is no less provincial now than when it lead us to believe the whole of existence was a platter under an overturned punch-bowl.
      Darkmatters likes this.
      If you have a sense of caring for others, you will manifest a kind of inner strength in spite of your own difficulties and problems. With this strength, your own problems will seem less significant and bothersome to you. By going beyond your own problems and taking care of others, you gain inner strength, self-confidence, courage, and a greater sense of calm.Dalai Lama



    19. #19
      Diamonds And Rust Achievements:
      Veteran First Class Vivid Dream Journal Referrer Bronze Populated Wall 5000 Hall Points Made lots of Friends on DV Tagger First Class
      Darkmatters's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2009
      Gender
      Location
      Center of the universe
      Posts
      6,952
      Likes
      5837
      DJ Entries
      172
      High five Tausaur!!

      Um... if you exist that is..

      Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaerer View Post
      My senses, the consistent patterns they reveal, and the overall situation they imply (that we are members of a species of life that is the product of evolution). Considering that I am the only mind that exists, and other people are only consistent patterns it creates doesn't make sense to me considering our similarity. It would seem much more likely that we are in the same situation, and share a mutual realism.
      You just defeated your own argument!! Nothing you just wrote constitutes proof... only conjecture. And why do you keep saying this stuff about being the only mind that exists... that's simply another possibility - the most extreme one imaginable. I never said that was the case - I simply said we can't prove the objective world or other people actually exist exactly as we believe they do.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 12-06-2011 at 05:23 AM.

    20. #20
      Banned
      Join Date
      May 2008
      LD Count
      don't know
      Gender
      Posts
      1,602
      Likes
      1144
      DJ Entries
      17
      Quote Originally Posted by Taosaur View Post
      Objective properties, however empirically established, still constitute a statement of the relationship of the non-subject world to a body of subjects, often a hypothetical totality of subjects.
      What do you mean by this?

      Say two people stand at rest relative to each other and to their surprise, see something glow. They are both independently surprised and both agree where it came from, when it happened, if it has a consistent pattern of brightness, etc. Isn't this proof that their senses are not only utilizing a shared medium, but can also imply an external object independent of either one individuals mind?
      Last edited by Wayfaerer; 12-06-2011 at 05:33 AM.

    21. #21
      Diamonds And Rust Achievements:
      Veteran First Class Vivid Dream Journal Referrer Bronze Populated Wall 5000 Hall Points Made lots of Friends on DV Tagger First Class
      Darkmatters's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2009
      Gender
      Location
      Center of the universe
      Posts
      6,952
      Likes
      5837
      DJ Entries
      172


      So - tell me again - HOW do you know the other person is real? Personally I talk to people every night who aren't but at the time I could SWEAR they are..

    22. #22
      Lurker
      Join Date
      Dec 2011
      Posts
      3
      Likes
      0
      Wayfaerer seems to need logic in his/her life.

    23. #23
      Banned
      Join Date
      May 2008
      LD Count
      don't know
      Gender
      Posts
      1,602
      Likes
      1144
      DJ Entries
      17
      Quote Originally Posted by Darkmatters View Post
      So - tell me again - HOW do you know the other person is real? Personally I talk to people every night who aren't but at the time I could SWEAR they are..
      I assume your talking about dreams, which I guess I just wouldn't define as real. Dreams inspire us and effect reality, but they're dependent on waking life (which is dependent on reality) for the content they play with.

    24. #24
      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 2006
      Gender
      Location
      San Antonio, TX
      Posts
      3,865
      Likes
      1171
      DJ Entries
      144
      Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaerer View Post
      If our awake senses aren't objective receivers of an external reality, then why can two people look at the same event and agree upon exactly what happened?
      Exactly.......in......which sense?

      I mean - sure most of us at the same event can agree maybe up to 95% of what happened, but there's always discrepancies between any two people of what exactly happened at any event. I'm not saying the event was not an objective reality. But I am saying that no one has ever experienced the same reality.

      Theologians have pointed out a huge problem with the new testament in the bible. Four gospels, and only one of them is different? The likelihood that four different people witnessing an event would describe those events in the exact same words, whole phrases, paragraph structure - not possible!

    Similar Threads

    1. Floating Eye - Between waking and dreaming
      By dervwhelp in forum Dream Interpretation
      Replies: 3
      Last Post: 11-16-2012, 10:50 AM
    2. Replies: 3
      Last Post: 12-04-2010, 02:49 AM
    3. For Dreaming Or Waking Life
      By Adrenaline Junkie in forum General Lucid Discussion
      Replies: 4
      Last Post: 03-31-2007, 10:13 PM
    4. Dreaming of waking up
      By arne saknussemm in forum Dream Control
      Replies: 14
      Last Post: 08-16-2006, 03:17 PM
    5. Waking once I discover I'm dreaming
      By Ziggy420 in forum Attaining Lucidity
      Replies: 2
      Last Post: 04-28-2004, 08:16 AM

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •