• Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views




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    Thread: Philosophical Debate - Does it feel the same for you?

    1. #1
      Ontologist LabRat's Avatar
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      Lightbulb Philosophical Debate - Does it feel the same for you?

      After a year or so of experimenting with drugs - both soft, chilled drugs aswell as hard, reality-bending ones - Ive started to become really aware of the reality im in.

      Not in any negative aspect whatsoever do I say this, and I am not fearful - I'm more in awe at the reality that we live in - or think we do.

      What I am going to put forward, is an invitation for you to describe, in anyway possible, what the dream world feels like for YOU. Im not talking in terms of the 5 senses - I mean more than that. Think ontologically, think physiologically, think psychologically.

      The best way I can describe it is almost that I feel like I am literally in another Universe, where physics are different. The general dream atmosphere poses a force that can be likened to the deep-sea pressures being put on every square inch of my body. Light feels as though it is not only hittig my "eyes" but my entire body as a whole, but also everywhere else.

      I sometimes stand there in a lucid dream, admiring the fact that my "real" physical body is lieing in my bed, next to my girlfriend, who may or may not be awake, with little to no external stimuli reaching me, perhaps only warmth.

      I then realise (I study physiology, remember that ) that with the fact that I am dreaming, my brain is active. No light is hitting my real eyes - so optical neurons arent REALLY being activated - but my occipital lobe is more active than ever. It is all internal. same with the motor cortex - my brain is telling myself that my body is moving, but in reality it isnt.

      Chemical and electrical signals are still, if not , MORE active right now, as I stand here, in the dream.

      As I rub my hands on the carpet, or the kitchen lino, or my body, I can feel every electrostatic element of the dream material I am touching. Is this simply the electrical singals in my brains translating to something falsely-visual? Or something more?

      If anybody had a method of thinking even slightly similar to this - or someway completely different, Id love to hear your way of describing the way you percieve dreaming as whole. Chur
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    2. #2
      ~Fantasizer~ <s><span class='glow_FF1493'>Alyzarin</span></s>'s Avatar
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      When I dream, it's a total departure from reality that takes me into strange corners of experience which are incomprehensible upon waking. I often have dreams that I cannot put into words in any meaningful way. To me, dreaming feels like freedom. Freedom from the constraints that the laws of reality keep us in, and from the sanity of living as a human being. This freedom is something I can't really describe either, it's just like a background sense that there's nothing keeping me bound to logic. I don't have as much experience with lucid dreams as I would like, but when I have been lucid the feeling stays but becomes stronger. Generally my thoughts continue on in absurdity like they would in a regular dream, I'm just aware of it. Lucid dreams also have a feeling to me that I can only describe as power. In the few lucid dreams I've had, I've never failed in making a power work to at least some degree. It's like when I realize what's going on, my subconscious just submits to my will.

      However, for a little perspective, I am an escapist at heart. In my lucids, what's going on in the real world or even that I exist in the real world at all could not be further from my mind. Back when I used drugs, deliriants (a la diphenhydramine, datura) were my top drug of choice, although I did psychedelics more often out of respect for the health hazards deliriants present. Something about a total disconnection from mind and body is just highly appealing to me. Although, I don't do things like that anymore.

      Quote Originally Posted by LabRat
      As I rub my hands on the carpet, or the kitchen lino, or my body, I can feel every electrostatic element of the dream material I am touching. Is this simply the electrical singals in my brains translating to something falsely-visual? Or something more?
      My opinion on this is that yes, it is just your brain translating electrical signals, because your brain really is that awesome. Reading that reminds me of people who smoke DMT and go from saying that drugs are all in your head to believing that there actually is a hyperspace dimension out there where your DMT trips take place, because their minds "could not possibly have come up with that". You're selling yourself short, people. The human brain is an breathtakingly powerful piece of machinery.
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      Ontologist LabRat's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Alyzarin View Post
      You're selling yourself short, people. The human brain is an breathtakingly powerful piece of machinery.
      Agreed.

      Im very fascinated by the ideas of parallel universe, quantum theory, string theory etc. so in some sense, I see the world, the Universe, everything, as the smallest amounts of energy, or strings, probabilites if you will that form every part of reality - including empty space.

      So when Im in a dream, I kind of feel.. hmm.. I want to say "tingly" but that is totally not the word im after.. It truly is ineffable - any attempt to describe it is in the wrong direction. What Im trying to convery is the fact that I know the dream isn't real - it is simply brain neurons firing - so whilst in a dream, I no longer "see" strings, or pieces of energy - I see the dream world as not real. Something that doesn't exist forever. It exists simply at that time.

      To reitterate, the human brain is indeed, a breathtakingly powerful piece of machinery.
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      ~Fantasizer~ <s><span class='glow_FF1493'>Alyzarin</span></s>'s Avatar
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      Ah, I get what you're saying. But if you're going to get down into the details of it like that, then the dream world does exist, doesn't it? Just in a different way than the waking world. However, to you it's all the same - those signals in your brain control everything you perceive, no matter what state of mind you're in. It's the patterns that create the signals that are different. However, those patterns, whether external or internal, still follow the same energies and probabilities as everything else, just in their own respective context. Shouldn't it be that the dream world is ineffable not because it's not subject to reality, but because it is subject to simply an incredibly different reality than we are used to that attempts to convey itself as something familiar to us, giving off a feeling of alienness despite looking normal?

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      In a sense of kinesthesia, I would say a dream in summary feels like the exploration of the abyss of the subconscious mind.

      If we were to examine reality as the "normal" plane of existence then the dreamworld I believe is an intensely distant reality away from waking reality. Sleep is the first step. Your body slows down into a comatose like state where your subconscious takes over, creating a series of vivid and dynamic sensations called the "dream". A reality so shockingly vivid that your mind mistakes this easily for true reality. However, in this, your short term memory is hindered. You have no awareness of where you were, per se five hours ago nor do you realize sometimes that you are actually asleep.

      However, when your conscious enters the dream, the entire reality of the dream shifts. You are still in the abyss of the subconscious but have the knowledge to realize your external reality is existent. Your new found knowledge lets you take control of this strange medium sometimes giving you extreme metaphysical abilities.

      Despite this, I believe the dream state is not as complex as it seems or perhaps our "normal" reality is on a complete different dynamic of existence than the dream state. Because of limited complexity in the dreamworld, it is not bound to universal laws and therefore, metaphysical abilities are able to exist in such a reality. When something of high complexity (our conscious) amalgamates with something of lower complexity these abilities are able to overcome the low complex environment that exists. However, because we do not have the knowledge to overcome our own realities with true metaphysical abilities because of apparent higher complexity in the environment in which we live in, we are bound to universal laws of gravity, physics and nature. Perhaps, once human intellegence exceeds the level of our own realities, we can truly exhibit superhuman abilities.

      Source:

      - Psilocybin Mushrooms.
      - Marijuana.

      Last edited by Quantiq; 12-17-2011 at 01:08 AM.

    6. #6
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      Lucid dreams feel real to me, but with my senses and emotions heightened. My awareness is higher than it is in real life, I have more creativity, and it feels different in the sense that, a lot of the 'atmosphere' I feel in real life doesn't apply in the dream. I don't feel like I'm in another universe or anything though.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Dianeva View Post
      Lucid dreams feel real to me, but with my senses and emotions heightened. My awareness is higher than it is in real life, I have more creativity, and it feels different in the sense that, a lot of the 'atmosphere' I feel in real life doesn't apply in the dream. I don't feel like I'm in another universe or anything though.
      The Many-Worlds theory states there, potentially, there is an infinite number of Universes representing any possible scenario - "If it can be thought of, it exists in a Universe somewhere" Im a firm believer in the ManyWorlds theory - i think - thats why I feel like Im in another universe - because my dreams are entirely my scenario - the first time they have been thought of, so in a way, I AM in another universe - but agreed, its entirely my persepctive that I am in one. Hahaha
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      Okay. If you think that literally being in another universe is a more realistic explanation than that your mind is making it up, then okay.

    9. #9
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      Oh, no hostility, please I thought the wink insinuated that I was kidding? Perhaps not. Hahaha. I know that my mind was making it up - Im just trying to make it somewhat grounded - relating tit something other than the fact that its not real.
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      Sorry for seeming hostile, I probably shouldn't have said it like that exactly. No, I didn't think the wink meant you were entirely kidding.

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      Unfortunately it's been too long since I've had a lucid dream. I quit trying a long while ago and for a year and a half would still experience randoms from time to time. I haven't had one for at least half a year, probably more. However, I've had 50ish in my time of trying (which I may begin to try again now that there is hope--no more smoking weed means I actually remember my dreams) and I still remember what it feels like. In fact, in the rare vivid dreams I get in which I can actually think and even sometimes control my actions despite not knowing I am dreaming, it feels pretty much the same way. I've only ever had one lucid in which my senses were at least as sharp as real life: my first WILD (though I have had many WILDs). This somewhat makes me envy those who say that when they dream it's more real than real life, that sensations seem to have more resolution all around. For me, it's like I'm almost totally at the disposal of my subconscious. I had very poor dream control yet did some things with ease that others described as challenging (such as flying, which I have been able to do since my first LD, though in a few rare cases flying forwards did not work so I had to fly backwards on my back, like backstroke in a pool). Unless especially lucid, it's almost like I see less than I feel. I feel the existence of everything and know it "exists" because of this. My vision normally lacks clear resolution, but I do not need to rely on it as much to perceive the world around me. Like many of my non lucids but to a (fortunately) much lesser extent, I seem to dream of many nonsensical things that seem perfectly normal to me. This is why I had nearly as many WILDs as DILDs because I could see the most crazy and nonsensical shit occur in a dream and not even begin to question that I am dreaming (most of my dreams I am more like an observer in, I don't usually think or feel anything complex, I get base emotions and somehow go through the actions). Sometimes in normal dreams I am not even a person at all even if I was one only seconds before, like I'm just an omniscient observer. Most of my dreams are about nothing in real life either, and almost entirely about people or things I've never met; but, I digress.

      In lucids it is as though I am wandering in a land nearly totally out of my control where physics, time, and space can change at the snap of a finger, but not really at random... though unpredictable, usually. Sounds strange, but my dreams are strange. Usually (and I always forgot this save for a few times) the only way to get any modicum of control was to refer to myself as "we," in doing so making a clear effort to include my subconscious as part of myself. It seems there is a rather clear separation between the two, especially when dreaming. It might have something to do with having ADHD, only medical condition I have affecting neurotransmitters. Sometimes it felt as though me and the world around me (which I really just view as a representation of the subconscious itself because of how easily it changes) were very in tune, and other times obviously out of synchrony. It's an odd experience, being out of sync... like almost being rejected from the dream like a transplanted organ being attacked by the immune system. It isn't all that pleasant, I feel like the world around me and all its inhabitants don't want me there or that I simply don't "belong," like I am an unnatural abomination of sorts. I guess we have some issues to work out because any of the methods my friends have used for passive control via talking to dream characters (if there even are any, half the time there aren't) result in dream characters remaining totally ignorant to the fact that it's a dream. I guess the non-cooperative attitude means to say I should make more of an effort to communicate in a more dream appropriate way than language. It feels like a world that is highly volatile to change, though much more having to do with feeling than thinking. That's how the unbelonging works, it's almost entirely a feeling. I guess it's the subconscious' way of communicating, unadulterated concept transmission via causing feelings, infinitely more complex than simple emotional feelings (like sad, mad, happy, etc.). This, perhaps, accounts for my ridiculously poor memory while in a lucid (I couldn't even complete or begin to complete goals I had been setting out to do for 2 or 3 weeks). I'm somewhat confident though that this synchrony issue is really more of my conscious self's fault, because I do not properly know how to communicate or act in a dream. Guess I need a lesson in dream etiquette before I'm welcome. d:

      edit: Sorry for the walls of text, but I'm about to add a little more. I forgot to mention one time I WILD'd, but all that happened was I was floating in a black abyss. It wasn't as though it were devoid of light though, or even looked black. It can only be described as black because there was literally no sensory input. It was as if I were floating, or maybe more flowing, in a sea of void. The surroundings were... soft and fluid like, but nothing like water or anything I've experienced. Where I was in space did not particularly matter, gravity and the like did not exist. If I simply willed to feel as though I were falling, I was falling, if I wanted to stop, I would go back to how I was before. It was like being a conscious part of a world that wasn't comprised of anything or that I simply could not perceive, but it didn't matter. It was almost like I was the void at the same time, but completely limitless and infinite in its boundaries yet totally secluded from anything like the real world. It was like a very private, yet vast realm neatly nestled in my mind. I was in this dream for what felt like five minutes, then I woke up.
      Last edited by snoop; 12-17-2011 at 07:09 PM.

    12. #12
      Ontologist LabRat's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by snoop View Post
      edit: Sorry for the walls of text, but I'm about to add a little more. I forgot to mention one time I WILD'd, but all that happened was I was floating in a black abyss. It wasn't as though it were devoid of light though, or even looked black. It can only be described as black because there was literally no sensory input. It was as if I were floating, or maybe more flowing, in a sea of void. The surroundings were... soft and fluid like, but nothing like water or anything I've experienced. Where I was in space did not particularly matter, gravity and the like did not exist. If I simply willed to feel as though I were falling, I was falling, if I wanted to stop, I would go back to how I was before. It was like being a conscious part of a world that wasn't comprised of anything or that I simply could not perceive, but it didn't matter. It was almost like I was the void at the same time, but completely limitless and infinite in its boundaries yet totally secluded from anything like the real world. It was like a very private, yet vast realm neatly nestled in my mind. I was in this dream for what felt like five minutes, then I woke up.
      Read my DJ - Ive experience this aswell from a WILD. I describe it as "tumbling down the rabbit hole" - I wasnt falling - heck, I wasnt even "moving" per se, space was not there. It was me, in this void, of such. I was halfway between "falling" and "floating" very fluid like, yes. You have worded it so well - especially with the lack of sensory input - It wasnt a "dark tunnel" but simply a place. Thanks for sharing man.
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    13. #13
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      I feel like the blinders get lifted and I can finally see the universe the way it actually is.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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