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    1. #1
      Ontologist LabRat's Avatar
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      Energy Measurements - Predicting the future?

      Ultimately, I guess in some way, I beleive that the Universe is a somewhat closed-system (although, I could possibly come up with an argument that is an open one - but not for this purpose).

      The Universe started from a point, as most of us know, with all inherent energy being inside it, and forever inside it (we think). We also know that energy cannot be created, nor deestroyed, but only transformed.

      SO - The question I pose here is, if we could somehow measure, accurately, EVERY energy transformation - from somebody eating an apple, the apple being digested, the sugars moving into the blood, the sugars moving into cells, recycled into citric acids etc. all the way to a space shuttle taking off, the rockets emitting all that heat, the heat warming up the immediate environment, microbes on the ground nearby get incinerated etc. -

      say we can measure every energy transfer simultaenously (and not just on Earth - universally) would that mean we could potentially predict the future? Assuming, ofcourse, that the energy measurement could be measured and interepreted relatively quickly, too.
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    2. #2
      Xei
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      Why the emphasis on energy?

      Anyway, on small scales the universe is random, and this randomness can grow to large scales, so cannot be predicted even if you have all of the information about it, in principle. And it's impossible in principle to measure stuff at a distance simultaneously.

    3. #3
      Ontologist LabRat's Avatar
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      The emphasis on energy because, realistically, thats all the Universe is?

      All radiation is energy, obviously. All light is energy. All matter is, is really concentrated forms of energy. Thus, the emphasis.

      In the quantum world though, you CAN measure and transfer information simultaneously...
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    4. #4
      Xei
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      Well, there's more to the universe than just 'energy transfers'; for example, a kilo object moving at 1m/s North has the same energy information as a kilo object moving at 1m/s East, but clearly they're different.

      I'm not aware of information ever being transferred instantaneously. I think it's still a law that this can't happen.

    5. #5
      Ontologist LabRat's Avatar
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      Have you head of quantum entanglement? Because the basic, most simplest idea that entanglement spawns is instantaneous information.

      Two particles that are quantumly entangled, but separated by, say, 100 lightyears. When one particle is acted upon, i.e. Its spin moves.. up, for example, its entangled doppelganger will instantly spin in the opposite direction. With this technology, quantum computers will be developed - allowing multiple calculations at once. So.. it CAN happen. Hahaha.

      And in respect of the 1kg object mving east or west - yes they may convery the same information, in some way - but what about the air particles to the west? They are seperate from the ones in the east - when the objects transfer energy to THEM, they go on to transfer the energy elsewhere. You can think of my idea in that respect - but its wrong. You have to take into account the bigger picture. Im speaking subjectively, you are speaking objectively, and lets be honest, the Universe is nothing BUT subjective. You have to think about other recipients for the energy to the west or the east - they are not in anyway the same. What if somebody see's that particular 1kg object travelling in their direction - spawning a different thought process resulting in different actions performed by the being - opposed to the person/animal in the east, who sees an object travelling away from them. I could really go on forever...

      There may be a sun out there somewhere that is in everyway identical to ours - same brightness, same mass, same light output - heck, even created at the same time, in the same way - but the planets that are hit by the light are different - one allowing life to grow on our planet, but not necessarily the other(s).

      Am I making sense now?

      Here's the page on Quantum Entanglement - I also read the other day on NewScientist.com that scientist have managed to quantumly entangle two diamonds, big enough to see with the naked eye. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement
      Last edited by LabRat; 12-16-2011 at 11:59 PM.
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    6. #6
      Xei
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      Quote Originally Posted by LabRat View Post
      Have you head of quantum entanglement? Because the basic, most simplest idea that entanglement spawns is instantaneous information.

      Two particles that are quantumly entangled, but separated by, say, 100 lightyears. When one particle is acted upon, i.e. Its spin moves.. up, for example, its entangled doppelganger will instantly spin in the opposite direction. With this technology, quantum computers will be developed - allowing multiple calculations at once. So.. it CAN happen. Hahaha.
      Entanglement doesn't allow for faster-than-light information transmission.

      The increased speed of quantum computers isn't to do with reducing transmission times.

      And in respect of the 1kg object mving east or west - yes they may convery the same information, in some way - but what about the air particles to the west?
      The idea is that they're the only two objects in a vacuum. It is just a simple example to show that energy doesn't contain all the information.

      Anyway, this is all tangential. The important point is that determinism isn't true, so the answer to your question about predicting the future is 'no'.

    7. #7
      Ontologist LabRat's Avatar
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      I guess Im not deterministic by belief, so I'll agree with you.

      But quantum entanglement does allow instantaneous transfer of information, no matter the distance - the "quantum" at the start being key.

      Thanks for your input man. (I COULD argue that two objects moving in a vacuum in opposite directions still harbour energy.. but you obviously dont get my standpoint on the idea) Hahaha. Entriely theoretical, remember!
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    8. #8
      Xei
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      They do have energy; they both have half a Joule of energy. The point is that this doesn't uniquely determine everything about that model universe. No problem, anyway.

    9. #9
      Yay Avatar working Dizko's Avatar
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      I haven't been on DV for years and I sat around thinking of a forum to create to mark my return - and alas, you have stolen it I was going to liken it to a super-computer capable of predicting the movements of atoms etc, or Paul Atredies from Frank Herbert's 'Dune' book. Oh well!

      I was convinced that these things could (hypothetically) be predicted by some kind of super-mind simply by following cause/effect but I guess I better look into the quantum world a bit more before engaging in a proper discussion about it. Good thread though.
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    10. #10
      Ontologist LabRat's Avatar
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      'Dune' is one series Ive never read - I know nothing of it - Im keen to hear Dune's take on it? Please share!
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    11. #11
      Yay Avatar working Dizko's Avatar
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      Oh you have to read Dune. It's a science fiction series but that's really just a medium for Herbert to voice his philosophies on religion, politics and even just plain reality. And more so, to explore these ideas. He sets up characters of differing religion and takes you right into their many discussions. It's almost like reading his thought processes as he develops certain ideas or opinions.

      Anyway the reason I mentioned it (Don't worry about spoilers, there's much more to the book) is because Paul, a lead character, gains an ability allowing absolute knowledge of the future, and the way it is described (as drug trippy as it may be) seems to be that he follows the patterns inherent in the energies or atoms that move dependent on cause/effect. This leads to some problems for the character though, as he says "To know the future absolutely is to be trapped into that future absolutely. It collapses time. Present becomes future. I require more freedom than that.".
      A great read, I highly recommend everyone to read it.

      A few more quotes;

      "The flesh surrenders itself, he thought. Eternity takes back its own. Our bodies stirred these waters briefly, danced with a certain intoxication before the love of life and self, dealt with a few strange ideas, then submitted to the instruments of Time. What can we say of this? I occurred. I am not . . . yet, I occurred."

      "I think what a joy it is to be alive, and I wonder if I'll ever leap inward to the root of this flesh and know myself as once I was. The root is there. Whether any act of mine can find it, that remains tangled in the future. But all things a man can do are mine. Any act of mine may do it."

      "Some people never observe anything. Life just happens to them. They get by on little more than a kind of dumb persistence, and they resist with anger and resentment anything that might lift them out of that false serenity."
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    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by LabRat View Post
      SO - The question I pose here is, if we could somehow measure, accurately, EVERY energy transformation
      If you knew the position and velocity of every single particle in the universe then you can predict the future position of that particle and perhaps predict the future based on that. However, according to the uncertainty principle it is impossible to know both the position and velocity of any particle, much less all the particles in the universe.

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      ^ I'd also add that it's impossible according to the time-energy uncertainty relation.

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      Why thank you

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