Thread: What distinguishes Civilization and Wilderness?

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

As monkeys go, we're rather embarrassingly hairless.

Actually, our body hair density is about the same as a chimp. Our hair is just thinner.

(And you can feel free to live in the woods if you want, but I'll stay at a Holiday Inn).

The holiday inn is still part of earth. It's ridiculous to say that it is any different than any other portion of the earth in terms of being or not being part of nature.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

(And you can feel free to live in the woods if you want, but I'll stay at a Holiday Inn).

So "shelter" = civilization?

Birds make nests... many animals burrow...

Once I entered a state of very mild insanity. I lived on a very busy, noisy road near a port. The house was a hovel. I was very angry with 'civilisation' as I thought it was brutal, cruel and unspiritual. I gave all of my posessions to my neighbours except for a few items I would need to survive in the wilderness. I went deep into some woods far from the city to live on nature's terms as that would be spiritual. I had undergone a lot of survival training in the past and was confident of my ability to live in the wilderness. I envisgaed living another decade or two at the most, my end would most likely be illness. I say very mild insanity at the start because I hadn't even considered my family in the matter; I hadn't considered my relationship with the emotion of loneliness; my attachment to modern 'creature comforts' and the pulling effect they would have on me. After a few days I was sitting by my fire in the early evening. I heard a genderless voice (very strange, believe me) say, 'Don't turn away from the world. Go back into it and make it a better place'

It was a spiritual message and I couldn't move fast enough to get back to the city. Back at my old hovel I was at peace with the world and just knew that the world and human civilisation was in a state of evolution. Sure, there were thirty odd wars going on worldwide, so-called civilised capitalism was raping the planet but again I just had this strange inner feeling that everything was working out according to spiritual evolution. I started meditating properly and my views of reality changed over the coming months. This strangely bolstered my desire to do my little bit to try to make the world a better place.

Crap!

Suddenly I agree with you. Anthills, schools of fish, tribes of monkeys, coral reefs... all civilization. I guess civilization in that respect is simply organization of living things in order to facilitate living for the group. Not sure where plant life fits in, though I suppose it organizes itself to fit the situation too. So it comes down to a matter of degree.

I still say monkeys would laugh uss right out of the tree due to our tiny invisible body hair though.. we make pretty piss poor monkeys and lack even rudimentary tree-climbing and grub-digging skills.

@PStoned

We're not the same species though.

Long before our time, the population was split apart. So the population that had to adapt to certain environments started to change over generations and generations to create a new species.

Even though genetic composition etc. might almost be the same, it doesn't make us Chimpanzees/apes/whatever.

We're Human Beings, they are Apes, but both are just as evolved as the other. But not the same. We share the common ancestor, but we can't interbreed. If we can't interbreed, then we're not the same species. (Although Neanderthals back then were able to interbreed for a while).

*runs*

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

I still say monkeys would laugh uss right out of the tree due to our tiny invisible body hair though.. we make pretty piss poor monkeys and lack even rudimentary tree-climbing and grub-digging skills.

Not true. Human infants can instinctively hold onto their mother and other trusted adults. I've seen it happen and had it happen to me. We're also way better at climbing (with just a little practice) than any landbased mammal. Didn't you climb trees when you were a child?

The fact of the matter is that we are monkeys. Please study basic cladistic taxonomy before responding.

Originally Posted by Linkzelda41

@PStoned

We're not the same species though.

Do you think "monkey" is a species. I said species of monkey.

Long before our time, the population was split apart. So the population that had to adapt to certain environments started to change over generations and generations to create a new species.

Thanks for the lesson in basic evolutionary theory.

Even though genetic composition etc. might almost be the same, it doesn't make us Chimpanzees/apes/whatever.

I never said it did. I said it makes us a species of monkey. We're specifically a species of ape. All apes are monkeys, therefore we are monkeys. Get it?

We're Human Beings, they are Apes, but both are just as evolved as the other. But not the same. We share the common ancestor, but we can't interbreed. If we can't interbreed, then we're not the same species. (Although Neanderthals back then were able to interbreed for a while).

I never said that we're the same species. Do you think a chimp could bread with a baboon? They're both monkeys.

Is the standard of education in this world really so pathetic that I even have to respond to this last post?

Hmm well, I was joking about us making piss-poor monkeys, I mean it's true but it was a complete side-issue to the actual discussion.

But do you honestly think any human stands even a remote chance of competing even in the Monkey Special Olympics?

All apes are not monkeys.. were you even being half serious with that? We're primates I think, but not apes. Of course I have only a layman's knowledge, but pretty sure that's right. Again, not that it has anything to do with the discussion.

I never said it did. I said it makes us a species of monkey. We're specifically a species of ape. All apes are monkeys, therefore we are monkeys. Get it?

I thought species was the potential for a group of populations to interbreed in nature. We can't fuck monkeys and have decent offspring, so we're not a species of them.

I never said it did. I said it makes us a species of monkey. We're specifically a species of ape. All apes are monkeys, therefore we are monkeys. Get it?

No, I don't get it. We're a species of a common ancestor before being split off to have two different species, but that doesn't make us monkeys. We split off into two types. One eventually became gorillas and chimps, while the other evolved from Hominids (result: Human Beings)

We did not evolve from monkeys, so we can't be a derived as a species of monkeys. It's the common ancestor. Monkeys are a species, they are a species of the common ancestor.

I never said that we're the same species. Do you think a chimp could bread with a baboon? They're both monkeys.

Is the standard of education in this world really so pathetic that I even have to respond to this last post?

Well if it is that pathetic, I guess we're both wrong.

Oh we can fuck monkeys... we just can't get them pregnant. Thus monkey-fucking is actually safer than human-fucking. For humans I mean.

Fixed, too bad you caught that before I realized that like 2minutes

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Oh we can fuck monkeys... we just can't get them pregnant. Thus monkey-fucking is actually safer than human-fucking. For humans I mean.

Can't monkeys also get HIV, and humans can contract it from them?

(Oh yeah. And we ARE a species of monkey, technically. "Monkey" is a colloquial term for "large primate." You cannot find in nature "Homo Monkey" or anything like that... that's like calling wolves and domestic dogs and coyotes all "dogs." Or all large cats "Cats." It describes the group unscientifically...)

Oh shit!

(They can really scratch and bite too )

And in recent years they have started making and using tools...

Is this haunting picture proof that chimps really DO grieve? | Mail Online

This isn't the only case where chimps have held a "funeral" of sorts; one mother chimp's baby died in a zoo, and all of the other chimps had a "wake" of sorts, they lined up and passed or held the mother's hand who was by her baby's side. (I wish I could find the article now >.<)

Originally Posted by ThePreserver

Can't monkeys also get HIV, and humans can contract it from them?

(Oh yeah. And we ARE a species of monkey, technically. "Monkey" is a colloquial term for "large primate." You cannot find in nature "Homo Monkey" or anything like that... that's like calling wolves and domestic dogs and coyotes all "dogs." Or all large cats "Cats." It describes the group unscientifically...)

So how come we can't breed with them? Again, if species is the potential for a population to interbreed with each other, then we should be able to breed with them and make fertile offspring. But we can't because over generations, we've adapted to the environment we were allocated to the point that we can't breed with them.

We are a species of the common ancestor before there was a species of humans or species of monkeys (population was split). We ARE a species of the common ancestor, not the species of monkeys.

Ancestor...ancestor...ancestor...ANCESTOR.

Originally Posted by Linkzelda41

So how come we can't breed with them?

Because humans are not the same species as chimps...

Originally Posted by ThePreserver

Because humans are not the same species as chimps...

So we're species of chimps, yet I swore

All apes are monkeys, therefore we are monkeys. Get it?

.

But now we're not the same species as chimps/monkeys? I thought you said we ARE a species of monkey. So that means you're assuming monkeys were the ancestors that we were derived from. But you're saying we're not the same species as them, so doesn't contradict what you said with what I said that we're not a species of monkeys/chimps?

If we are monkeys, but not the same species as monkeys, but a species of monkeys...doesn't it make what I said that we're not a species of monkey when we're a species of the common ancestor instead? And that monkeys/chimps were a species of the same common ancestor?

Originally Posted by Linkzelda41

So we're species of chimps, yet I swore .

But now we're not the same species as chimps/monkeys? I thought you said we ARE a species of monkey. So that means you're assuming monkeys were the ancestors that we were derived from. But you're saying we're not the same species as them, so doesn't contradict what you said with what I said that we're not a species of monkeys/chimps?

WE ARE A SPECIES OF MONKEY. We are ALSO a species of ANIMAL. Monkey is a non-scientific group that over-arcs Chimps, Apes, Humans, etc.

We are NOT chimps. I NEVER said we were chimps. I said we were monkeys.

Chimps are a species of monkey. Humans are a species of monkey. But humans are not chimps. I don't understand what the contradiction is there... Circles and Squares are both "shapes." But a circle is not a square...

Nevermind...I was just saying we're species of a common ancestor, but that ancestor wasn't a monkey.:/

Notice the placement of the thumbs!



Darkmatters, you're not going to be that guy at the bar, right?

Not until at least the 3rd beer.

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

Not true. Human infants can instinctively hold onto their mother and other trusted adults. I've seen it happen and had it happen to me. We're also way better at climbing (with just a little practice) than any landbased mammal. Didn't you climb trees when you were a child?

I agree strongly with all of your post except for this.
Our feet are horrible for climbing. Basically useless in fact. Any monkey besides humans have feet better suited to climbing.
The biggest thing a human can grab with their feet is probably a thin branch (like 3cm diameter?)

Originally Posted by Linkzelda41

I thought species was the potential for a group of populations to interbreed in nature.

No. A species is not "the potential for a group of poulations to interbreed in nature". What you defined is a type of potential, not a group of animals.

A species is something like "A group of animals which are able to breed and produce fertile offspring". Note that what I've defined is at least a group of animals...

We can't fuck monkeys and have decent offspring, so we're not a species of them.

You are a monkey. You could fuck another monkey and have a "decent" offspring with them so long as you stay in your species. You could not fuck a member of a different species of monkey and have fertile offspring. Simple?

No, I don't get it.

Why does this not surprise me?

We're a species of a common ancestor before being split off to have two different species, but that doesn't make us monkeys. We split off into two types. One eventually became gorillas and chimps, while the other evolved from Hominids (result: Human Beings)

Wrong. The last common anscestor of humans and chimps split off from the gorrilla line. That's right. A chimp is more closely related to humans that it is to a gorrilla. Also, Gorrillas, Chimps and Humans are all hominids. If you want to narrow it down to humans, you need to go to the hominins.

We did not evolve from monkeys, so we can't be a derived as a species of monkeys. It's the common ancestor. Monkeys are a species, they are a species of the common ancestor.

Please learn what a species is. Then learn what monkeys are. Monkeys are not a species. It's a large group of species. Any two monkeys cannot interbreed.

Well if it is that pathetic, I guess we're both wrong.

I hate to ask but how do you figure?

Originally Posted by tommo

I agree strongly with all of your post except for this.
Our feet are horrible for climbing. Basically useless in fact. Any monkey besides humans have feet better suited to climbing.
The biggest thing a human can grab with their feet is probably a thin branch (like 3cm diameter?)

Well of course. We're the only monkey that's committed completely to bipedalism. So our feet have specialized to that. Our arms are good and we can still grip with our legs though. It's possible to walk right up a coconut tree for example.