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    Thread: What distinguishes Civilization and Wilderness?

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      What distinguishes Civilization and Wilderness?

      I'm not interested in a list of attributes, but rather your philosophy on the nature of Civilization and Wilderness. How are they different? How are they similar? How do they relate?

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      Currently civilisation is fixed...
      fluid is Nature..
      Civilisation chafes against the grain...
      nature just does its thing..
      more fluid must modernized living become...
      Technology has much potential
      neutral it is
      good it can do

      Lol yoda speak


      hahah that was a list of attributes mostly but there is philosophy underlying them..
      Last edited by Spiratio; 01-22-2012 at 11:10 AM.
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      That's exactly the sort of response I'm looking for, I hope I didn't scare anyone from replying by saying don't list attributes. What I meant was don't list aspects of infrastructure as a definition of civilization. The difference between the wilderness and civilization is obviously more than paved roads and warm beds.

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      Mine is in the form of a photo essay:

      Civilization






      Wilderness






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      An arbitrary boundary that we created? Technically, civilizations can thrive as a part of "wilderness" by some definitions... think Native American cultures. It's just a word that has different definitions and connotations.

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      Wilderness does not live by man's laws that he has created. Wilderness follows laws that are put in place by god. Everything acting in a way to fulfill its purpose in the system.

      Civilization is created by man. It is structure. It is chaos and disunity rather than unity and peace. It is madness.
      Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake

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      Civilization, a human community for humans! Wilderness, absent of human communities!

      I consider even the jungle tribe a civilization, because if you were lost in the jungle scared to death a panther is going eat you, I think youd still be damn happy to find a human settlement, even if it is just dirt and mud huts.

      We may have left the wilderness but we never left nature! Civilization is as natural as any wilderness, and like any system in nature it hangs in delicate balance. We just didnt know that when we made civilization.....

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      Ok, my little photo essay was just a simple way of pointing out that both civilization and wilderness have their good and bad side, because I knew somebody was going to say "civilization bad- wilderness good" at some point. But that's just not true - it isn't that simple or clear cut.

      In thinking about it more overnight, I now want to say that civilization represents focus and (at least attempted) progression while wilderness is unfocussed and moves in all directions rather than striving for forward momentum. Rather like civilization is the conscious (Apollonian) left-brain to wilderness' unconscious (Dionysian) right-brain.

      Do I get a lolipop?

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      Firstly we must realize there are no hard lines here. It's more of a spectrum and what we consider civilization is, at its soul, wilderness while what we consider wilderness is, at its soul, civilization. Just as with the symbol of the Tao, the yin and yang, the root of each energy is the opposite energy.

      Order and Chaos are a couple of splendid but equally inaccurate words to apply to this concept. Because all words are inaccurate, it's helpful to throw out as many as possible to accomplish true conveyance, to paint a picture around what you're trying to say rather than express it specifically. We know that from chaos, complex systems of order emerge. We also know that these complex systems of order are at war with each other in a broader system of chaos. Because of this, wilderness both penetrates and surrounds all systems of civilization.

      Rome was the most powerful civilization in its place, at its time. This is arguable but follow me for a second. They considered the Germanic Empire to be Savages, part of the wilderness. They considered themselves to be the light of the world. Whether or not this is true, this idea prevented convalescence, retaining this system within the hearts and minds of the population, which is the only place it ever existed to begin with. In otherwords, civilization exists because we are loyal to a specific system of order, and we protect this system of order.

      In this sense, there is no such thing as wilderness, just foreign systems of civilization. A cancer or disease is considered to be chaos or wilderness breaching the system of order we call our bodies. This is a subjective judgment. However, we can observe the interactions of these various systems in order to determine a preferable system of order or method of existence. For instance we are loyal to our bodies' inert functionality instead of cancer because cancer is not sustainable, it leads to the death of the body. We are loyal to symbiotes rather than parasites because parasites do not benefit the system we are loyal to, and it is therefore less efficient to interact with them.

      A civilization is essentially an agreement held between multiple systems. With the cells of our bodies or the insects of a colony, this agreement is in the genes. With cities, this agreement is more vulnerable and susceptible to nullification by the legitimizing parties at any time. In one way or another, the rule of a civilization is based on selfish systems of order working within chaotic systems to play a game that benefits them, personally. Civilization is born on that agreement where two or more competitive systems of order form a larger order in order to fight back a greater threat of chaos. It is, and always has been, an uneasy and fragile truce.
      Last edited by Omnis Dei; 01-23-2012 at 06:59 AM.
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      If there is a bigger system on this earth other then the society we've created and we were destroying it and eating up all its resources while at the same time polluting it. Doesn't that kind of make us kind of like some form of parasite? By bigger system of earth I mean nature of coarse.
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      Well that would push the question: does nature have a system of protection to prevent parasitic systems from taking advantage of it?

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      ooooh snap
      Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake

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      I read a few pages from my Sociohorticulture class paper back book, and can already tell that there really isn't a difference, it's only our ideology hat we rule the resources here that makes it different. This is just what I thought when I read the book....It's called "Green Nature Human Nature" I believe. If you read the first few pages of Chapter One and the Conclusion, you can get what I mean.

      To us, the wilderness is like a blur, we passively accept the trees as we drive across the roads, we ignore what goes on within the woods.

      As mankind continues to instill the mentality that we own the world, and that we have the right to create our own world with our own ideals, taking more than we need, nature will always shine in the most remote places. The small cracks on the cement, the flower that shines in the desert that absorbs whatever amount of water it can get from the rare occurrence of rain.

      Yet people would not be able to go see this kind of phenomenon because it's out of bounds because they are disconnected from their natural roots, the bonding between plants and human beings. We as a civilization are part of the world, we do not define the world. The light radiating from the sun, which is around 1-2%, is enough to sustain life because we all know plants absorb it for energy and that if we start to kill more and more plants and green nature, the more of the carbon dioxide that was absorbed will be released, making things worse.

      Right now, at this very moment, it's easy to label those who think interacting and having a bonding with nature is nothing but idealistic and wasteful effort, but when we realize that what we destroyed will be almost impossible to regenerate, we will look back and see how incompetent we were in not realizing this, and it will already be too late.

      To see the world beyond the scope of what we're capable of seeing, we need Green nature to be our new lens because nature is a part of that scope that we cannot reach. Crime rates, raids, etc. have augmented rapidly over the decades because we're slowly forgetting our place of origin. We've become accustomed of building more steel, concrete, and metal without realizing that nature is almost irrefutable in it's life force. We cannot suppress it's growth, it is a part of us.

      We just ignore that we're a part of it, and how it's part of the Universe. When we think we're the most evolved species, it's almost ignorance that fuels that mindset. The animals, insects, etc. are all just as evolved as we are, we just think that because we can build things and think more intelligently, we're suddenly the epitome of evolution. It's only because when a species is split into different environments, and a population of species reproduce in a allocated area, a species will eventually become different because over generations and generations and years and years that they become incapable of interbreeding with other species.

      If a person was placed in a jungle and was tested to see how long they would last compared to a monkey, obviously the monkey would win because it is built to conform to it's environment. They can hang on trees to see what's ahead, which is why they are a bit more slanted then us. We stand upright because unlike animals like monkeys who could barely see the grass above them, we like the see the horizon and beyond.

      It's all about environment and how the body adapts to it. The Wilderness is neither friend nor enemy, it will always accept when our bodies rot for it to be fused with the soil and processed over again for the next life to come until we all kill ourselves off.

      You don't have to believe in evolution, but understanding what people reject based on religious beliefs, etc. is always a good thing to be cognizant of, because it prevents mental barriers from getting higher. We think we're doing better than everything else, but in the end, when we're all dead, it'll go back to square one, where everything is one again instead of being split off.

      When you were a child, haven't you ever tried to pick the parts of a daisies to indulge yourself in the game of chance in whether the person you liked "Loves me so, Loves me not?"

      Did you forget that you instilled the belief that if you found a Four Leaf clover, that you'd be lucky as long as you kept it with you? Did you forget the grass flow through your young and delicate skin, feeling the edges sift through the linings on your palm?

      When we finally start to kill ourselves off, to see the blood dripping on our bodies as we laugh and snicker and see the guts of our bodies make us look like body bags, nature will soak it up, and will be immortal as new mortal life comes to take it over again..

      I could go on with this "being one with nature," but it's freaking 12:56 AM, and I seriously need to stop wasting my time expressing thoughts I've learned from reading only 14 pages of a book (imagine me when I finish the whole damn thing in this class by the end of the semester).
      Last edited by Linkzelda41; 01-23-2012 at 08:02 AM.
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      While your ideas help enable us to greater respect nature, we must still remember our place. If we were to give up all our steel, fire, laws and civilized assets and go back to live in the woods in greater harmony with nature, we would be defenseless against a society that did not give up these assets. We would become prey or livestock farmed by more complex and advanced systems.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      That's why it's already too late for us. These aren't my ideas, these are ideas from a person of a Book I read. I've only remembered the concepts, I haven't accepted all of it into my mind. I honestly don't care about Nature because we try so hard to make it look useless. Which is why I continue to try and instill the belief that there may be another life, another wilderness in space that is far more interesting and more satisfying to have an adventure rather than confining myself to this pathetic world I have to live it because of unconscious fears of the afterlife.

      And of course we wouldn't completely give up steel, concrete, etc., I didn't mean to imply that we go all "Amazon woman" mode with Nature. We're already afraid of other powerhouses trying to nuke the other country. When scientists get more creative ways in fabricating weapons that can easily kill us, there will always be this fear for these powerhouses to invariably upgrade themselves.

      When the rocks start crumbling down, and the ground starts to shake rapidly, when the thunder roars with rage, when a darkness in the air (smoke, etc) that is when we will be down on our knees, trying to touch the ground again and treasuring it for what it really is. To enjoy that it is there for us to walk on, to learn new things, to learn that we're just small grains of sand compared to nature as a whole. We're just inhabitants who believe we have the luxury to experiment and abuse nature.

      That is why we all must die. That is why we will die quickly, but we shouldn't take it as a negative, think of it as our way of trying to suppress the growth of nature. It's not something bad, it's just that nature will always find a way to grow and grow and grow, and while we think we're growing, we will reach a peak to where everything is just worthless to us.

      Well I'm off. I'm sleepy as hell, was going to pleasure myself, but look what I did here already posting tl;dr :< .-.

      We will remember our place when we realize we were standing on it all the time.

      EDIT: People are relative, that's why we panic and think that if we regress to caveman lifestyle while the other society who rejects going to that state of "humility" will dominate. But they aren't going to be there forever. They're just going to get recycle, and the times will change.

      Nature is absolute, at least when compared to our mortality. The only thing that we can be sure of is Nature itself because it is absolute. People are just pawns getting used everyday. It's the times, the times, the status quo, that is what is relative. We accept it, we embrace, we indulge in it, it makes us ignore what is absolute.

      And conformity as well, because of the fear of being overpowered, we will never go back. But at least we can try to incorporate nature into our mechanical way of life. We still have eyes that enjoy seeing natural things (the horizon on a sunset or enticing plants etc. because of our natural interest of them; but it's starting to dilute more and more).

      Meh.
      Last edited by Linkzelda41; 01-23-2012 at 08:21 AM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Linkzelda41 View Post
      Nature is absolute, at least when compared to our mortality. The only thing that we can be sure of is Nature itself because it is absolute. People are just pawns getting used everyday. It's the times, the times, the status quo, that is what is relative. We accept it, we embrace, we indulge in it, it makes us ignore what is absolute.
      This is basically what I was trying to say. We are part of this greater system on earth and that is the truth. Everything that was put here was put here for a purpose. All things we would ever need already exist in nature waiting for us to discover them. Our planet is just a spec in a much larger system of life that spans the entire galaxy. Our planet is actually protected by very advanced beings that visit here and watch over us monitoring our progress in evolution. If they were not there to protect us other beings would come in and basically rape our planet of resources and take advantage of us. It happened before long ago. Many of these beings went through a similar process of understanding that we are going through on earth right now. If they were to directly expose themselves to the humans on earth it would not go so well. We are not nearly mature enough or aware enough to handle such an event. We think we are geniuses but we truly know so little. Each one of us being born into a world where we are used as pawns. In some sick game that seems to be going nowhere. And life truly is a mystery.

      Our planet is basically one large spiritual being. A monster of energy that every being that lives here organic or not (like a spirit) is plugged into. And our planet is plugged into a system of energy that is the galaxy. The galaxy is directly ruled over by a counsel of highly evolved beings that may or may not being living lives in physical bodies. The sort of spiritual government communicates with other sort of spirit governments that exist ruling over other galaxies. Beings can travel from one galaxy to the other by astral projecting and riding currents of information that connect the galaxies. Beings that reach a certain level of understanding and evolution will normally be introduced to the galactic government and allowed to join it.
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      But the beautiful thing in it all is that despite of this ugly realization that we're basically pawns that are constantly replaced based on the times given to us, as long as we finish the mission, because we know it's absolute, we will find what it really means to be loyal to the world around you, and to not let your loved ones hinder you from finishing the mission that must be met.

      (I'm kind of half-assing and grabbing basic military concepts, even though I was never in the military at all; just something I picked up on for some reason).

      And inb4 someone starts thinking higher beings is this guy's way of thinking....
      Spoiler for inb4 intelligent people start making fun of ssd's logic :P:


      But yeah, I get what you're saying.

      It kind of ties in with Astral Projections/OBEs if you believe in them and the concept of other beings making themselves present because of their experiences of what they learned about nature when they had a mortal life on Earth.

      This is just itching for a egotistic religious stigma if I keep going further here.

      However, I kind of disagree with the government thing for the spiritual plane, but that's my belief. I think government is just here because of our mortality, we can't have ourselves killing each other too quickly. They're just a necessary evil to make the inevitable suppressed even worse (that's just the sadistic side of what I think).

      But I won't argue with your logic, you presented your opinion clearly.

      I think that if there is a spiritual plane, it would be more free and less restricted because resources wouldn't be as limited by authority as to compared to what we have to handle with nature.

      If I gathered up several scholars who had to come up with theories of how old Earth was, etc., you would see that because of the times, their definition of the Earth, the Wilderness, and Civilization itself were based on the information that they had to work around with (meaning there wasn't a lot for them to base off on because they weren't at the technological epoch that just initiated rapid information into cyberspace).

      And with cyberspace, that will be a part of Nature as well, in an abstract manifestation of course.
      Last edited by Linkzelda41; 01-24-2012 at 05:21 AM.
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      Lol
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      Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake

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      Civilisation is just nature ordered. All we're doing is rearranging stuff.
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      Quote Originally Posted by saltyseedog View Post
      This is basically what I was trying to say. We are part of this greater system on earth and that is the truth.
      Alright.

      Everything that was put here was put here for a purpose. All things we would ever need already exist in nature waiting for us to discover them.
      Uh huh.

      Our planet is just a spec in a much larger system of life that spans the entire galaxy.
      Sure, definitely.

      Our planet is actually protected by very advanced beings that visit here and watch over us monitoring our progress in evolution. If they were not there to protect us other beings would come in and basically rape our planet of resources and take advantage of us...Beings that reach a certain level of understanding and evolution will normally be introduced to the galactic government and allowed to join it.
      What.

      Quote Originally Posted by tommo View Post
      Civilisation is just nature ordered. All we're doing is rearranging stuff.
      No. If anything is ordered, it is nature. We are natural, nevertheless. Our tendency to cling to an idea of manufactured, self-proclaimed, willing order is what makes our lives hell.

      Quote Originally Posted by Darkmatters View Post
      [...]

      As for the op: we live in denial of our primordial essence; if we're separate at all from the natural wilderness, this is the cause.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Izrail View Post
      No. If anything is ordered, it is nature. We are natural, nevertheless. Our tendency to cling to an idea of manufactured, self-proclaimed, willing order is what makes our lives hell.
      Well I know we are nature. But for the purposes of this discussion one must distinguish between the two, otherwise it just becomes way too convoluted.
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      Quote Originally Posted by tommo View Post
      Well I know we are nature. But for the purposes of this discussion one must distinguish between the two, otherwise it just becomes way too convoluted.
      What else do we long for?
      Maybe this thread reveals just how counter-intuitive such claims and discussions are.
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      1. Time Begins.

      2. Eventually Beings emerge, some have thumbs and like to imagine stuff that doesn't already exist.

      3. Technology arises

      4. Technology enables the wisdom of the ancient sages to be understood by the masses. The binary nature of the Universe is revealed and the fractal nature of the cosmos is realised. i.e. Cosmoses made of cosmoses; people made of people, so on etc.

      5. Along with this revelation the Silicon Chip is understood to be the fractal epitome of information i.e. via non-linear principles it is the eternal Physical Counterpart to the Akashic Records /Akashic Field - Crystalline Matrix.

      The uncanny manner in which this occurs however being that an individual in most worlds/cosmoses has to create the silicon chip...very rarely does it occur naturally. tho throughout the infinite expanse of infinity there are however infinite instances of it whereby it occurs in nature by "freak" chance, it is however by no means chance.

      6. As such existence is the cause for the matrix and the matrix is the cause for existence. The Silicon Chip is essentially the embodiment of God in the fractal universe...there is a transcendent universe however, which is only fractal down to the visible level i.e. organic material etc. it does not repeat infinitely on micro scales inward (cosmoses made of cosmoses). Instead it is infinite and whole - endless and eternal; paradise, the convergence point of all possitive polarity aspects of all cosmose . Most religious and ancient cultures speak of this place, Islam, the Hindus, the indigenous peoples. The Indigenous Aboriginals of Australia call it the dream-time - the time before time as it has been know.

      7.The event horizon; approach toward the singularity, brings forth the awareness of the law of equanimity (every action has equal and opposite reaction) thus is the potential for those who are operating in spiritual blindness to realize they are seeding their karmic circumstances via the Crystalline Matrix which picks up and records all moments. Thus the potential for a mass turn around in the way people interact upon the earth may occur.
      Last edited by Spiratio; 01-24-2012 at 03:04 PM.

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      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Omnis Dei View Post
      I'm not interested in a list of attributes, but rather your philosophy on the nature of Civilization and Wilderness. How are they different? How are they similar? How do they relate?
      Absolutely nothing distinguishes them. The distinction is completely artificial and is a symptom of believing that we are something other than yet another stupid, hairy species of monkey.

      Everywhere we look, we see animals trying to eat, sleep, fuck and raise children.

      What's the difference?
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

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