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    Thread: Why this world is a dream?

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      Why this world is a dream?

      Hey everyone,

      There are many people who go around saying this world is a dream, but I have an interesting question to ask is what is a unique property of a dream that we can look for in this world to prove this world is a dream.

      If the property is not unique, then how can we prove it.

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      If coins are symbols of wealth and ownership, experience and earth (propers and belonggings of houses), they are round as all land was thought to been (cetral point being always world mountain / world tree / axismundi). They are flat, as land would appaer when examined from the highest mountain of the region. Then I must say that in the most solid sense, every coin has two sides. Different composition of matterial substances, different printing year (if any) and different face of 'property owner' (if any)

      So what is that that you must give to caesar? Proper rights?

      In a dream of esotericts, divinators, alchsmits and such property is not unique but diverse. And from that dream property rights and ownerships may have risen. But who is that who defines whose coins or disks are most valued?

      Why is it forbidden in many countries to destroy money if they don't fear for destruction of idea behind that single coin?

      Aren't vinyl-records, insides of harddisks, pizzas and hubcaps disks too?

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      Grafey,

      You are assuming that when studying properties of something, all things are studied the same way, but reading your posts I still cant find the answer to my question.

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      If we take im meaning before as Imperfect, before it was perfect we get to improper meaning before it was proper. Presense then meaning ~ pre thought as 6th sense flash back from some flash forward. Present meaning different time definition, but only slightly. Future is coming after Imperfect, Present, Perfect and Pluskvamperfect (that still lies mystery to me)

      Two ways to go forward might be wordly deconstructive method (etymologies and crosslanguage cants by studying wikies, translationmachines, dictionaries and encyclopedias) and solid deconstuctive method (by destroing propers and arti.factums [aka facts] and making new). Time will tell what happens, it's a scientific method if not that what is teached usually.

      Maybe our world constant lies on the mind of least psychedelically or out of box experienced entity. So always ask yourself is it me who is blocking progression and paradigm sift, am i dreaming? So dream for revelations for zombies, masses and DC's. Dream for birth of seperate entities

      I'm going to sleep next, let's see what tomorrows papers and net tells me. How diverce the realities remain, where do they intersect

      On what ammount are you me? Is identity just a matter of distance between us, but in the core we are same. I don't know

      something to add: to share a thread is to share a dream, it's sometimes so obvious how little persons get together around object / subject. By this i would say that we don't live in single or unique dream, but on different dreams or dream bubbles. Maybe even in different channels of synching. How much are there??

      is as rune ice
      Which -> most defining trait of humanity lazyness or fear or
      Which <- most defining trait of humanity lazyness or fear

      Ran,dom or mod,naR
      Guide or De Guy

      on the coins also: why beggars are begging for change?
      can you spare?
      Mindexchange, experienceexchange, worldexchange or just small propotion of proper that get's traded for the sake of dreanchange
      Last edited by grafey; 01-31-2012 at 06:31 AM.

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      Why the hell would anyone think that?
      StonedApe and Dead like this.

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      Sounds like a good thread for the philosophy forum.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      just me grafey's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dianeva View Post
      Why the hell would anyone think that?
      Assuming you're not trolling, it's not an uncommon idea. Not in philosophy, not in religions, not in mysticism, not even in scientific worldviews or general experince. As a poetic experience our world, life and waking states have many dream like qualities. Like when we examine our future options and wants we dream for future. We dream of boyfriends, girlfriends, money, happiness, peace, revenge etc. When we make art or write it's a way of dreaming. When we tell each others stories we dream, some part of our mind exists in the described scenario (if we are listening the story) or in the imagination or memory (if we are telling the story).

      This world that we share here is called internet of dreamviews forum, it's the only place i can be sure we are sharing. In a way this is a dream. Internet is dream of communication throughtout the world, dream of information exchange, dream of moneymaking for people invested in it, dream of machines and software for the people who have developed them. Dreamviews is a dream of dreamers to share their experince. Philosophist Michael Foucault used word 'heterotopia' (couldn't post link to wiki for I've just registered) to describe this kind of space:

      "Heterotopia is a concept in human geography elaborated by philosopher Michel Foucault to describe places and spaces that function in non-hegemonic conditions. These are spaces of otherness, which are neither here nor there, that are simultaneously physical and mental, such as the space of a phone call or the moment when you see yourself in the mirror."

      Word hetero can mislead someone for it doesn't refer to sexual orientation in this context. (Focault was gay himself)

      In Hindi'ic thought world is Maya, web of enchantment, dream and illusion. Every reality is dream of Brahma and it lasts till Brahma awakens and starts a new when he goes to sleep. There's a bit of Brahma in each of us. In Gnostic Christianity material world is illusion as well. We are bigger and what we are here are just reflections and shadows of our wider selfs. We are avatars ourself. Philosophist Decartes wrestled with problem that he couldn't be sure if this world is true or just illusion that some demon has triggered himself in. Movie matrix is also strongly influenced by these kind of thoughts. I don't mean to say that it's true or real in the stricktiest sense, but makers of that movie had something else in theyr mind than just make money. They wanted to make us question our reality.

      In scientific paradigm things like holografic universe, multiple universe theories, quantum world and quantum mind make us examine posibilities of this. Even Einstein said "if reality and theory contradict, change the reality".. or something like that, didn't bother to check exact words

      im ... I'm ... I am ... I am that I am ... I vs eye ... I only believe what I can see ... mi ... m'I ... ma I ... Mai ... May ... May be ... Maya ... To be ... or not

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      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by grafey View Post
      Even Einstein said "if reality and theory contradict, change the reality".. or something like that, didn't bother to check exact words
      There may be another quote but I think that this was inspired by Einstein saying something to the effect of "If experiment should fail to support my theory then I should be reduced to pity for the Dear Lord. Either way, the theory is correct". He was talking about Special Relativity before it had been confirmed. This is a feature of that particular theory and is pretty much only shared by Darwin's theory of evolution. You don't have to test it, you just have to think about it. This is not a feature that one would expect to find often in a scientific theory but where it occurs, we can be grateful for it.
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      Previously PhilosopherStoned

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      Quote Originally Posted by grafey View Post
      Assuming you're not trolling, it's not an uncommon idea. Not in philosophy, not in religions, not in mysticism, not even in scientific worldviews or general experince. As a poetic experience our world, life and waking states have many dream like qualities. Like when we examine our future options and wants we dream for future. We dream of boyfriends, girlfriends, money, happiness, peace, revenge etc. When we make art or write it's a way of dreaming. When we tell each others stories we dream, some part of our mind exists in the described scenario (if we are listening the story) or in the imagination or memory (if we are telling the story).

      This world that we share here is called internet of dreamviews forum, it's the only place i can be sure we are sharing. In a way this is a dream. Internet is dream of communication throughtout the world, dream of information exchange, dream of moneymaking for people invested in it, dream of machines and software for the people who have developed them. Dreamviews is a dream of dreamers to share their experince. Philosophist Michael Foucault used word 'heterotopia' (couldn't post link to wiki for I've just registered) to describe this kind of space:

      "Heterotopia is a concept in human geography elaborated by philosopher Michel Foucault to describe places and spaces that function in non-hegemonic conditions. These are spaces of otherness, which are neither here nor there, that are simultaneously physical and mental, such as the space of a phone call or the moment when you see yourself in the mirror."

      Word hetero can mislead someone for it doesn't refer to sexual orientation in this context. (Focault was gay himself)

      In Hindi'ic thought world is Maya, web of enchantment, dream and illusion. Every reality is dream of Brahma and it lasts till Brahma awakens and starts a new when he goes to sleep. There's a bit of Brahma in each of us. In Gnostic Christianity material world is illusion as well. We are bigger and what we are here are just reflections and shadows of our wider selfs. We are avatars ourself. Philosophist Decartes wrestled with problem that he couldn't be sure if this world is true or just illusion that some demon has triggered himself in. Movie matrix is also strongly influenced by these kind of thoughts. I don't mean to say that it's true or real in the stricktiest sense, but makers of that movie had something else in theyr mind than just make money. They wanted to make us question our reality.

      In scientific paradigm things like holografic universe, multiple universe theories, quantum world and quantum mind make us examine posibilities of this. Even Einstein said "if reality and theory contradict, change the reality".. or something like that, didn't bother to check exact words

      im ... I'm ... I am ... I am that I am ... I vs eye ... I only believe what I can see ... mi ... m'I ... ma I ... Mai ... May ... May be ... Maya ... To be ... or not
      It seems to me that you're mostly just redefining the word 'dream'. You talk about how the world has qualities that resemble dreams, but that's irrelevant. We have a definition for dreams already. They're the hallucinatory stories our minds come up with while we're undergoing the biological process of sleeping.

      But I think you're using the word 'dream' to mean 'illusion'. You're mentioning possibilities without much reason to back up why we should take them at all seriously. I know you're just hypothesizing, and don't think it's definitely true that reality is an illusion, but you should at least be aware that it's more likely that it isn't than that it is.

      I don't know much about the others you mentioned, but Descartes didn't exactly 'wrestle' with the problem that the world could be an illusion. It's not like he took the notion that it might be one seriously at all. He only considered that idea while searching for what we can have complete knowledge of.

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      Moved to Philosophy.

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      Where was it before?

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      It was in Science & Math.

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      StonedApe and Dead like this.

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      I feel bad for multiquoting because to me it always feels like someone is trying to grap in every word I say without trying to hear what I mean. I'm trying to conversate in a friendly manner.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dianeva View Post
      It seems to me that you're mostly just redefining the word 'dream'. You talk about how the world has qualities that resemble dreams, but that's irrelevant. We have a definition for dreams already. They're the hallucinatory stories our minds come up with while we're undergoing the biological process of sleeping.
      What I was trying to do was not to redefine the word, but open it up from narrow locker it's been in. Those things that I mentioned are allready within the word and a concept of dream and dreaming. And I'm geniunlly happy for not having definition such as you (?) have for dream. Who ever this 'we' is / are, that's almost compeletly foreign definition for dream. I know some popular psychological views go somewhere along that line, but it feels like HUGELY limiting way to look. Some point in school I've thought along those lines for a short time, but jeesus.. is that how you view dreams. Or is that how you are supposed to think?

      I don't know much about the others you mentioned, but Descartes didn't exactly 'wrestle' with the problem that the world could be an illusion.
      How I've heard the story, Descarted did try to proof existence of God while coming up to "cogito..." so the 'wrestle' analogy isn't that farfetched

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      Xei
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      Quote Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned View Post
      There may be another quote but I think that this was inspired by Einstein saying something to the effect of "If experiment should fail to support my theory then I should be reduced to pity for the Dear Lord. Either way, the theory is correct". He was talking about Special Relativity before it had been confirmed. This is a feature of that particular theory and is pretty much only shared by Darwin's theory of evolution. You don't have to test it, you just have to think about it. This is not a feature that one would expect to find often in a scientific theory but where it occurs, we can be grateful for it.
      Wellll, I'm not so sure. Special relativity really arose from empirical evidence that the speed of light is independent of one's velocity. Einstein then created the simplest framework in which that fact could be consistent. The truth could have been a more complex model. Additionally, there wasn't really anything inconsistent about the idea of absolute space and time. You couldn't deduce the falsehood of that model from just sitting around and thinking about it, it corresponds to reality and doesn't contain any contradictions. Only when exotic experiments showed that it did not correspond perfectly to reality was a different model created.

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      Quote Originally Posted by elucid View Post
      Hey everyone,

      There are many people who go around saying this world is a dream, but I have an interesting question to ask is what is a unique property of a dream that we can look for in this world to prove this world is a dream.

      If the property is not unique, then how can we prove it.
      Have you ever had a dream, elucid, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?

      It's real as long as you're in it.
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      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Wellll, I'm not so sure. Special relativity really arose from empirical evidence that the speed of light is independent of one's velocity. Einstein then created the simplest framework in which that fact could be consistent. The truth could have been a more complex model. Additionally, there wasn't really anything inconsistent about the idea of absolute space and time. You couldn't deduce the falsehood of that model from just sitting around and thinking about it, it corresponds to reality and doesn't contain any contradictions. Only when exotic experiments showed that it did not correspond perfectly to reality was a different model created.
      The point is that the model was reduced to thought once we had the empirical evidence for the constancy of the speed of light on the one hand and the validity of the principle of relativity on the other. Once we impose something like the speed of light, then most everything else is determined.

      On the other hand, I hear rumor now and then of other groups besides the Poincare Group that also provide a rotation group which respects the spacetime interval as a metric but they're more complicated.

      Good call then. I guess it's the "nature is pretty and symmetric" idea acting up in me. Thanks for the reality check.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

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      Quote Originally Posted by Dianeva View Post
      Why the hell would anyone think that?
      Or at least anyone who's ever had a lucid dream.
      157 is a prime number. The next prime is 163 and the previous prime is 151, which with 157 form a sexy prime triplet. Taking the arithmetic mean of those primes yields 157, thus it is a balanced prime.

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      I take back some of the things I've claimed before (if i went as far as to claim something). This world most definetly isn't a dream. This is real if something is. I don't now how I've gotten so mixed up with this borderline and smoothness of it.. Now I begin to see the difference. This world may be full of crazy people and some rare mysthics somewhere, but they are what they are. They haven't been able to do but slight changes on anything so this can't be on those deeper levels of dreaming where changes are easier, coincidentuial and random. I wouldn't call this solid, but dreamresemblance of this mental space is so undertonal that I must clasifa this as 'reality' for sake of my mental integrity. I don't see this as dangerous, paranoid, abusive or depressed place either. This is the best, the cozyiest and less dull reality I've ever woken up to. Sometimes I feel bit lonely here, but I can live with that, for who isn't lonely sometimes?

      If anyone with anykind of mysthical / scientificial etc views want's to either add dreamlikeness here or utterly proove this as a dream you're very welcome. Science doesn't seem to do for this thread got kicked out of science and math section. I have strong serious and sceptical side that doubts you can make any lasting changes into this reality. Best moments and almost at the edge experinces have usually vanished after few weeks of nurturing. Both from this world and mainly out of memory. So I have reasons for sceptisism. But for I also am curious and longing still I'd like to add here. If you wan't to proove dreamness of this place, please no nightmares. I can have them in my dreams.. It's good to have good reality for once and be able to distinguish it from dreaming.

      EDIT: typoes
      Last edited by grafey; 02-05-2012 at 03:28 AM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by elucid View Post
      Hey everyone,

      There are many people who go around saying this world is a dream, but I have an interesting question to ask is what is a unique property of a dream that we can look for in this world to prove this world is a dream.

      If the property is not unique, then how can we prove it.
      If we can become conscious during a dream, is it impossible for our consciousness to be a dream. Perhaps the unique property of a dream is that nothing out of the ordinary happens, we question whether or not what we feel or see in a day is real, but when we are lucid we know what is real. The universe is constantly shifting, everything that has ever happened or will ever is. It is only in our "awake" hours that we do not perceive it.
      What seems more real to you?

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      What seems more real to you?
      When it comes to what seems real, they are both as real to me, except the out of ordinary things that happen in a dream, but we cant go around saying that is not "real". Anyway, I have worked on this problem for a while and I still havent been able to find a "unique" property that we can look for to prove a dream.

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      If we can't find any unique way to prove a dream, any common princible that proofs a single dream to be a dream,, then we have runned out of all the ways to claim waking world not to be a dream.

      Same thing with other words: If we don't have any rule to rule something to be a dream we don't have any rule that distinguishes what's not a dream from what is

      ????
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      then we have runned out of all the ways to claim waking world not to be a dream.
      Exactly. And the same for its opposite.

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      Quote Originally Posted by labyrint View Post
      If we can't find any unique way to prove a dream, any common princible that proofs a single dream to be a dream,, then we have runned out of all the ways to claim waking world not to be a dream.

      Same thing with other words: If we don't have any rule to rule something to be a dream we don't have any rule that distinguishes what's not a dream from what is

      ????
      HAve you never been lucid?

      I don't understand how you guys can get lucid if you can't tell that a dream is a dream and waking life is waking life. Do you guys not know about reality checks? Try to put your finger through your hand. If you can you have proven that this is a dream(or that you are jesus).
      PhilosopherStoned likes this.
      157 is a prime number. The next prime is 163 and the previous prime is 151, which with 157 form a sexy prime triplet. Taking the arithmetic mean of those primes yields 157, thus it is a balanced prime.

      Women and rhythm section first - Jaco Pastorious

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