Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned
0 is the empty set, i.e. {}.
1 is the set that has 0 as it's member, i.e. {{}}.
2 is the set that has 1 and 0 as its members {{} {{}}}.
He talks! I'm mighty proud of you, son. Now, is what you said the truth, or is it fiction?
By the way, apostrophes don't belong in possessive personal pronouns. That knowledge will help you in your quest to assert intellectual superiority.
Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned
Or two is just the same two that we've been talking about. How does that prove that I believe that two is real? It doesn't. Had you ever attempted to answer my question about how the definition of two determines if it's real or not, you would already have known that.
You just said what 2 is but did not mention anything about a fictitious nature. If I were to define the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I would mention the fact that it is a character. Here are some other examples. Zeus: the chief god in Greek mythology. Unicorn: a fictitious mammal that resembles a horse and has a single horn in the front of its head. i: the imaginary unit, which represents the fictitious concept of the square root of -1. I think you gave a weak definition because you defined it only by using other numbers and their sets, but at least you got up enough balls to say something. If you give a thorough definition, one that involves what numerical nature is (which I asked for early in the thread), you will show even more your belief in the actuality of 2 because you will have to relate it to that which pertains to the physical world.
Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned
I already did. I said something along the lines of "two, what's your point?" Again. There's two asterisks, what's your point? Oh yeah. You don't have one.
Yeah, you did say that a while back, and then you backed away from your position that 2 is real. By saying that there are two asterisks, you are saying that two is real. You said how many asterisks there actually are. That suggests reality. The asterisks are obviously there, and you used "two" to describe their nature. Unless you were being facetious somehow, you just admitted that 2 is a reality and illustrated how it is a reality.
Something very interesting about this is that you came at me in this thread with criticism of the "real number" system. Recently in another forum, you were going off about how imaginary numbers are real/actual. I took the position that they are not. We had an extremely long debate about that. Now you are saying that 2 (a "real number") is not real (Unless I put "real" in quotes, I am not using the word in the standard mathematical sense of "real numbers" versus "imaginary numbers." I know you have the position that those terms are misleading, and I don't want to confuse "real numbers" with the broader and more philosophical use of the term.). So, i is real and 2 is not? Is that your position? Yet you told me about where there are 2 asterisks, but maintained your position that 2 is not real. Are you sure you have really thought through this? It appears that you are just trying to oppose me no matter what. I'm flattered.
Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned
Just my typical one of stupid people.
I know you honestly believe that I am stupid. Your sincerity is overwhelming. However, Xei doesn't want people being insulting in his thread, and you expressed your desire to respect Xei's wishes in this thread. I'm sure he will say something to you about it.
Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned
This is pretty much just about dumping the heaps of ridicule on UM that he deserves.
Golly, I didn't realize that. You weren't transparent enough. I am sorry to tell you that you don't mean as much to me as I do to you. I know Xei is pissed about the fact that your side of this discussion was all about being insulting. Do you by any chance have small man's complex?
Originally Posted by Xei
I have no more understanding of what it means to "exist outside of time" than I do of what it means to exist outside a Klein bottle.
Time is only the fourth dimension. Existence is much broader than that. The reality of 2 would remain even if time ceased to exist. 1 + 1 = 2, no matter what. It is a fact that was never created and will never be destroyed.
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