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    Thread: Fear of death - A rational fear?

    1. #51
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      Quote Originally Posted by Alric View Post
      Though if no one tried to live forever, how would we get funding and stuff for reaching technology to make us live forever?
      Making the fear of death beneficial, thus making it rational? .-.

      Is that what you're trying to say or did I read too much into that?

    2. #52
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      Some kinda weird discussions going on here which sorta lost me.

      But the way I see it, our biological 'purpose' is to procreate and live, so it is entirely rational for us to be afraid of death. in the exact same way that it is actually 'rational' for us to be scared of creepy-crawlies, because the early humans which were not afraid of creepy-crawlies probably all got killed by creepy-crawlies.

      So yeah I'm being reductionist, but fear is an evolutionary survival mechanism and that's all there is to it.

      Hope I'm not misinterpreting the question here.

    3. #53
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      Alric, just join the mormon church and you'll live forever in heaven.

      Patrick, we're distinguishing that as survival instinct. Fear of Death is about fear of losing your identity, which is irrational because it's not necessary for survival anyways.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      Quote Originally Posted by Omnis Dei View Post

      Patrick, we're distinguishing that as survival instinct. Fear of Death is about fear of losing your identity, which is irrational because it's not necessary for survival anyways.
      Ah, my apologies, I must have missed that somehow when I read through all the posts. I guess I'm tired.

      I need to avoid the philosophy forum...

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      Quote Originally Posted by Omnis Dei View Post
      Fear of Death is about fear of losing your identity, which is irrational because it's not necessary for survival anyways.
      are you being ironic?

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      No

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    7. #57
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      Quote Originally Posted by Omnis Dei View Post
      No
      Well, that's stupid.

      It's the fear of losing your life, dying. Not losing your identity.. lol... If you die you lose everything in this world.

      But since i've seen what weird comments you make all around the site, i don't want to argue about this.
      I realize that i'm dreaming.
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      <--- My Dream Journal Contains ONLY Lucid Dreams

    8. #58
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      If you don't want to argue it, then don't reply.

      What is the difference between your life and your identity? Your life is nothing more than a collection of aggregates you identify with.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      Quote Originally Posted by Omnis Dei View Post
      Your life is nothing more than a collection of aggregates you identify with.
      This makes me sad.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Phion View Post
      This makes me sad.
      Don't let it make you sad. That answer is coming from a me first person. Life is more than just yourself.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Omnis Dei View Post
      If you don't want to argue it, then don't reply.
      I'm free to tell my opinion, just like everyone else
      I realize that i'm dreaming.
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      <--- My Dream Journal Contains ONLY Lucid Dreams

    12. #62
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      Here's some open questions for anyone:

      If medical technology advanced to the point where a treatment was perfected that could prolong a human lifespan indefinitely,

      1, if this were made freely available to everyone who wanted it, would declining be suicide?

      2, would you be willing to give up procreation for an indefinite lifespan? You could still have sex, but no babies.

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      I would totally give up children to live forever, and I think a ton of people would agree with me on that. As for the first question, I don't think it really matters. Suicide is just a word. It doesn't really make a difference if you considered suicide or not, it doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day you are either alive or dead.

      And yes Gavin, that is exactly what I was saying. Fear can motivate you to to either do positive things or negative things to try and avoid that fear. If there is a positive outlet for that fear, and it is helping you then I think that is a good thing.

      As for instincts, I don't care at all about my instincts. I care about myself because I am an intelligent, unique individual and I don't want to die. I don't think anyone should die, unless they want to. I don't want to live just because I am an animal with instincts to survive. The willpower to live comes from a higher level of thinking. People keep all sort of things around their homes. A lot of people naturally keep all sort of things for sentimental reasons. If you are keeping little meaningless trinkets, I would think something important like your brain would also be a priority on things you want to keep.

    14. #64
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      Quote Originally Posted by Alric View Post
      Death isn't a guarantee though, thanks to technology. Even today you could use cryonics to preserve your brain. As long as your brain is intact, and hasn't decayed into mush then there is a possibility of you still surviving.

      Some people call death the moment your heart stops but I don't think that is the case at all. Especially since you could be alive and conscious while on a machine pumped blood for you, and even after death it takes a while for your brain to die, which is why some people have 'come back' from death. I would call death the moment that the pattern within your brain that makes up your consciousness is irreversibly destroyed.

      So by your logic, the fear of inevitable death is rational if you believe there is a chance to avoid it. Especially if you are in good health at the moment, you have a decent shot at technology that can make you live longer and longer in the future, and eventually that technology can make you live forever.
      Yes, by my logic if death can be avoided it is rational. This is a simplification, but I think it's clearly sound. There can be exceptions if life is worse than death, but those are just that: exceptions to that general idea.

      I say death is a certainty because irrespective of advancements in technology, it's safe to assume 99% of the world's population today will face certain death. In fact, it is irrational to believe in an improbable chance of not facing death. That is, from a statistical standpoint, it is far more likely we will ultimately die rather than continue to live. I'm simply being realistic, not wishful. Ok, so maybe not certain, but damned more probable (especially when you factor in random deleterious events that could end your life prematurely).

      Yes, it would be good to extend one's life, and maybe with each extension greater technology will exist to further extend life with an endless repeat of this cycle. When such IS possible and mainstream, then I believe there'll be sociopolitical reasons to question whether living longer, and possibly indefinitely, is rational....not for the individual, but for the society he is a part of. But as it stands now, IF you can avoid death, then I think it is, generally speaking, rational. Though I see it as irrational for anyone NOW to commit themselves to the idea of not ultimately dying. As desirable as that may be. Extending life yes, avoiding ultimate death, no.
      Last edited by Wolfwood; 05-19-2012 at 06:30 PM.

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      Looking through the lens of medicine, I would say it's reasonable to predict that average life spans are bound to increase with further research in organ transplants, cell growth (stem cell), cancer treatments, drugs, and a general increase quality of food and healthcare across the world. From what I've read it's not too much to expect dramatic increases in life span in the next fifty years for a variety of reasons outside what I've mentioned. Granted, within that window only the richest could hope to receive the best potential outcome, at least with the current system of government and distribution of medical access.

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      Quote Originally Posted by IndieAnthias View Post
      Here's some open questions for anyone:

      If medical technology advanced to the point where a treatment was perfected that could prolong a human lifespan indefinitely,

      1, if this were made freely available to everyone who wanted it, would declining be suicide?

      2, would you be willing to give up procreation for an indefinite lifespan? You could still have sex, but no babies.
      No it wouldn't be suicide I do not think, and as for giving up procreation, No I would not, I want kids someday, I would die for my (Future) Kids even if there is a possibility I won't have kids.


      " I couldn't stand her at first, But then I loved her so bad It Hurt "

    17. #67
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      Quote Originally Posted by Alric View Post
      I would totally give up children to live forever, and I think a ton of people would agree with me on that. As for the first question, I don't think it really matters. Suicide is just a word. It doesn't really make a difference if you considered suicide or not, it doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day you are either alive or dead.
      Lots of people may agree, but could that be a bit short-sighted? Death is how life renews itself. You think you can keep coming up with new ways to keep things fresh?

      And sure it's just a word, but I trying to get at your personal feelings about it. Whatever you think it means... that's why I asked. And would you say the same about old-fashioned, regular suicide? That it doesn't matter in the end if you get yourself run over by a train on accident or on purpose?

      Quote Originally Posted by ZeraCook View Post
      No it wouldn't be suicide I do not think, and as for giving up procreation, No I would not, I want kids someday, I would die for my (Future) Kids even if there is a possibility I won't have kids.
      Let me twist things up a bit... what if the social norm was that declining the treatment was suicide?

      It just seems to me, that if indefinite lifespans became fashionable, than procreation would have to come to a screeching halt. The first generation to get the treatment may still have offspring, but that option would be much more restricted for the next one, and maybe completely out of the question for the third.
      Last edited by IndieAnthias; 05-19-2012 at 10:07 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by IndieAnthias View Post


      Let me twist things up a bit... what if the social norm was that declining the treatment was suicide?
      .
      If the most of society looked at it as suicide I still wouldn't take the treatment, I like the thought that we all die someday, in fact I'd probably start some rebel faction that wanted to make everyone mortal again.
      IndieAnthias likes this.


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      Suicide as a solution? What?

    20. #70
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      Quote Originally Posted by ZeraCook View Post
      If the most of society looked at it as suicide I still wouldn't take the treatment, I like the thought that we all die someday, in fact I'd probably start some rebel faction that wanted to make everyone mortal again.
      ha I'm sorta with you, but joining a rebel faction to suppress the development of a technology seems.... futile to say the last. Is there any historical example of that working? (besides the whole Christian Dark Ages thing). But... I could see myself getting into a community that chose to reject it... it would be more comfortable to be around people with a more enlightened view of death.

      And no, our community wouldn't die out. Why? cuz we'd be making babies. That might make for weird neighbors, though. 'yeah, the average age of people outside our little town is about 1000, but they've never seen kids before.' I wonder how they'd look at us.

      Quote Originally Posted by Phion View Post
      Suicide as a solution? What?
      So you're saying that you think declining indefinite life equates to suicide? That's what I asked before, but I haven't ever heard anyone actually say 'yes' to that.

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      Quote Originally Posted by IndieAnthias View Post
      we'd be making babies.
      Baby making is good.
      IndieAnthias likes this.

    22. #72
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      Quote Originally Posted by IndieAnthias View Post
      ha I'm sorta with you, but joining a rebel faction to suppress the development of a technology seems.... futile to say the last. Is there any historical example of that working? (besides the whole Christian Dark Ages thing). But... I could see myself getting into a community that chose to reject it... it would be more comfortable to be around people with a more enlightened view of death.
      Idk it may be futile, but Its like that movie surrogates I guess, I would be with that faction that thought it was stupid to be so afraid to die. although maybe if communities were set up I would feel really comfortable as long as those that lived forever left us alone. Some technologies are banned, the fact that were still using oil to run vehicles baffles me, someone had to have found another solution by now.

      Quote Originally Posted by Phion View Post
      Suicide as a solution? What?
      I wouldn't look at it as suicide everyone else was, I personally don't think it would be suicide at all because i know were all supposed to die, If we weren't we wouldn't be born dying.


      " I couldn't stand her at first, But then I loved her so bad It Hurt "

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      So like, divine euthanasia?

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      It doesn't matter if its unlikely or not, since the other option is death. So you have guaranteed death, or a slim chance of life. I would always take the chance over no chance at all. Besides, we can't really accurately predict it. From our currently stand point surviving 10,000 years seems extremely unlikely, but if they found a way to download your brain into a computer in 20 years, then surviving 10,000 years might be a simple mater.

      Which is why people who usually think and talk about immortality stuff are quick to point out that you don't need to become immortal any time soon. You just need to extend your life by a good amount of time, and with that extra time you can make a lot happen. Deal with things like heart attacks and cancer and stuff first, once those are solved most of the biological issues we are effectively immortal. We could still die if our sun explodes and stuff, but when we have a ton of time to deal with those situations.

      Also, even if 99% of the people on earth faced certain death, that would leave like 68 million people who don't die, so that isn't like a small number.

      Also how is not having children short sighted? I would say the opposite is true, having children causes a huge burden on people, and most people have them way to soon and way to often. If you planned ahead, most people would have less children and way later in life.

      I don't really buy that bull about death is needed for life to renew itself. What does that even mean? How is the elimination of a life time worth of knowledge and starting over again, anything but wasteful? Losing someone with a ton of knowledge and replacing them with a stupid baby that has to learn everything over again from scratch is a waste of time. It doesn't renew anything, it wastes time and resources.

      Adults are better at everything compared to children. If we improve our medicine so all the old adults are in great physical shape, then young people wouldn't even have that going for them.

      Also, of course I can keep coming up with fresh ideas and stuff. Having children born who don't know anything and so they repeat things done by others, isn't creating creativity. A tv might be a fresh and wonderful thing for a child, but come on. Having a repeating cycle where new people come in to do the same old things over and over again, isn't advancing anything. Just because they don't know any better when they copy what others have done, doesn't mean their original.

      I have no problem with people wanting to die though. I think they are being silly but whatever. If I had the choice of living forever, and then doing cool stuff like becoming a robot and flying through space, or having a bunch of children then dying shortly after, the choice is obvious for me.

      I mean if you just want to have a bunch of children and then die you might as well be a bug. A bug has a bunch of children then dies a day later. Wow, so exciting there. Who wants to have their life amounts to nothing more than that of a house fly. There is no different really. Once you are dead, your are dead and nothing about you matters and you cease to exist. Just like the fly.

      I don't think people are flies though, I don't think we are even close. That is why I think life is so precious and why we should hold onto it with everything we got.
      Last edited by Alric; 05-20-2012 at 02:59 AM.

    25. #75
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      Quote Originally Posted by Phion View Post
      So like, divine euthanasia?
      Perhaps, but I don't really know what to think about this reality at all, so I'm not basing it off of any thing Divine, its just what I have observed, Everything that has a beginning has an end. I watched so many things age and Die beyond just humans so I think we all should. To defy this would be wrong with me because it would be wrong with the universe, in my eyes wether the universe is divine.


      " I couldn't stand her at first, But then I loved her so bad It Hurt "

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