Thread: Fear of death - A rational fear?

Originally Posted by Alric

Why is that? Most people cope with the fear of death all the time, with little issues. The only times it really bothers most people is when others die and it reminds us of death but also we lose important people in our life. If everyone lived forever you wouldn't have that reminder and no heart break from losing you good friends and family. So even if that fear is there it is only minor.

Also what is this all happy vs long? That is two separate issues, you can be happy and long lived.

I'm not debating that, but the immortality of a mode of consciousness and my staying alive in physical form until the universe burns out are two separate ideas to address, sure. Feeling happy is as transient as feeling fear, although if I were aware, hypothetically speaking, about how the physical universe which I occupy was going to end and knew that I would be there to witness it does not necessitate any reason for me wanting to be there. So you're right, I can lead a self-fulfilled life void of fear and be plenty happy, but the world is not always that way. People die in freak accidents, wars, disease, etc., not all of which are predictable. So, basically, if I had a philosophical choice to be predominantly happy and content instead of fearful with the time my physical form is allotted, I would choose the former without hesitation every time.

I'm no longer talking about life as a whole.

I'm talking about your favorite drinking cup. When a buddhist monk was asked why he was so attached to his drinking cup when he taught non-attachment, he replied, "Well I like the way the light refracts and forms rainbows on the glass, I like the way its shaped, and I know it's already broken"

What is the next stage of your drinking cup, after now? Broken glass. In that sense, the drinking cup you love so much is already broken. (if you don't have a favorite drinking cup then replace this metaphor with something else)

So what is the purpose of seeing something as its next possible change? It makes their current form more appreciable. It makes you less likely to take it for granted.

In this sense if you live as a dead man, not actively pursuing death but at peace with your next (perhaps last) big change, surrendered to the fact that it could happen at any moment, even now, life becomes more savorable. Everything becomes truly a gift.

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

I'm no longer talking about life as a whole.

I'm talking about your favorite drinking cup. When a buddhist monk was asked why he was so attached to his drinking cup when he taught non-attachment, he replied, "Well I like the way the light refracts and forms rainbows on the glass, I like the way its shaped, and I know it's already broken"

What is the next stage of your drinking cup, after now? Broken glass. In that sense, the drinking cup you love so much is already broken. (if you don't have a favorite drinking cup then replace this metaphor with something else)

So what is the purpose of seeing something as its next possible change? It makes their current form more appreciable. It makes you less likely to take it for granted.

In this sense if you live as a dead man, not actively pursuing death but at peace with your next (perhaps last) big change, surrendered to the fact that it could happen at any moment, even now, life becomes more savorable. Everything becomes truly a gift.

Metamorphosis - from a caterpillar to a butterfly, perhaps. No beautiful and free butterfly without the limited, grim caterpillar.

That isn't really a choice you need to make though. You can say to yourself, "You know there is a good chance I may die some time, but I am going to try my best to live forever." You can have any of those view you listed or any other views you want. None of those effect the choice to live forever.

What we are really talking about is something like, you are given a choice to take medicine and be healthy or die, and you pick die. That choice I don't understand at all. Nor do I understand the idea that you would prefer to have your family members die compared to having them live.

Originally Posted by Alric

That isn't really a choice you need to make though. You can say to yourself, "You know there is a good chance I may die some time, but I am going to try my best to live forever." You can have any of those view you listed or any other views you want. None of those effect the choice to live forever.

What we are really talking about is something like, you are given a choice to take medicine and be healthy or die, and you pick die. That choice I don't understand at all. Nor do I understand the idea that you would prefer to have your family members die compared to having them live.

No your making it sound like something accidental has happened to you, instead of Increasing your lifespan by a vast amount, like hundreds of years.

Aren't we all just looking for something to hold onto? Some dream of a better life, the life we imagine we'll have once we get all the stuff we want to have it. Some dream... some refuge to sink our teeth into. Some piece of warmth to guide us. If we surrender, we of course do not stop seeking the warmth. It is our nature. And we follow our nature. But of course, we won't always have that refuge. It's place is temporary, and soon we will embark on a journey into the unknown. But we don't have to fight the unknown when it comes. We don't have to cope with it by labeling what it is and depositing it away as another known thing. We can surrender to it. And that's all you're doing. You're not stating you would not take medicine to keep you healthier. Of course you would, it is your nature to be healthy. You don't have the smash the glass because of course all things are made to be broken and therefore let's just smash them up now and save ourselves the trouble of losing it.

When you see something you want but you know it won't really make you happy, you don't have to shun away the amazing feeling you get from wanting that thing. You don't have to remove every refuge and go off into the woods now and have a spirit journey just because those things cause anguish. The things are not the problem. And being alive is not the problem. And thinking a human life is very special and valuable, that's not the problem either. The problem is the attitude, and having a bad attitude won't kill you. When a worm caught in shit says its perfectly fine being in shit, it has all it needs... there's nothing wrong with that. And how could it possibly know the sunshine rests just outside? But I'm telling you, it's there. If you surrender to it, you can have peace right now. And be willing to die right now. Not because life is worthless, and because it's worthless there's no reason to do it. Not because of that, but because it's so much easier to be alive when you're not adding on this extra weight.

It seems like the discussion here is whether it is wrong or right for everyone to die, or to be immortal.

Why shouldn't time of death be a personal choice?

Originally Posted by Abra

Why shouldn't time of death be a personal choice?

You do have a choice.

Originally Posted by Abra

It seems like the discussion here is whether it is wrong or right for everyone to die, or to be immortal.

Why shouldn't time of death be a personal choice?

The same reason you can't choose when you'll lose your favorite backpack. Life is uncertain.

Just because we currently can't choose our time of death (as well as choosing to extend it as long as we wish), doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to.

And that choice should be personal.

Uncertainty is the only law. Nothing ever works out 100% as you expect it. We don't even know for certain if the sun will rise tomorrow. You can either embrace the uncertainty or not.

Originally Posted by Abra

And that choice should be personal.

There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy. All the rest – whether or not the world has three dimensions, whether the mind has nine or twelve categories – comes afterwards. These are games; one must first answer [the questions of suicide].

The Myth of Sisyphus by Albert Camus

Till the point where your house is on fire and your heart is racing as you need to find an exit it is.
Till the point which you are hungry for days and you need to find something to eat it is.
Past that point and you can observe the simple thing.
Womens full of plastic surguries in order to stay pretty
people who suppress themselves when the hearing about earthquakes or disasters,
people on depression and apathy.
And that happens because of the human effort to try and brake the limitations of time,avoiding the thought of the inevitable,
the fact that as part of nature everybody owns a death.
And that point is Only pure HYSTERIA.

Originally Posted by Abra

Just because we currently can't choose our time of death (as well as choosing to extend it as long as we wish), doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to.

And that choice should be personal.

I do believe we should be able to choose when to die. That is, of course, if we are to make it to the specified date without any freak accidents etc. To say we must live no matter what is, to me, equal to saying you must die no matter what - there should be choice.

You do have choice, and I'm content with the amount of choice I have. I choose to live longer, so I choose to each my vegetables and exercise.

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

You do have choice, and I'm content with the amount of choice I have. I choose to live longer, so I choose to each my vegetables and exercise.

That's not the same. Living longer by those means is then a highly uncertain epiphenomenon of intending to live healthily. And there's only so far that can go.

I'm assuming we're referring to a clear-cut choice here. If you wish to die, sooner....it would not imply that you smoke and eat unhealthily for years in hope (too much uncertainty - ergo, less choice). It would imply that you put a gun to your head and do it. Choosing to live longer then would necessitate a clear, certain option like the gun. Say, taking a pill that would extend your life by 75yrs on average (all other things being equal) by dilation of the aging process. So two years = one year. (Obviously this is disregarding freak accidents/disease etc).

Would you take the pill?

Good question. It's rumored many ancient societies lived as long as 150 before they chose to wander off and die by doing a particular meditation which would shut down their organs. I don't see anything particularly wrong with living to 150 but I have an inert reaction against kicking the pebble down the road. I wouldn't pursue death, but I wouldn't pursue life, either. I mean I honestly do see life as rolling a boulder up a hill. When its time to buckle under the boulder's weight, it's time. That doesn't mean I think life is just a work-camp of suffering. I believe that on a very specific level, but in large I think life is a very enoyable experience. And I know from experience I hate leaving the party. The party is so much fun... you rarely see me leave before it's over. But eventually it's over, and it's time to move on. I fear if I took the pill once, and I assume it kept my body comfortably livable as well, I would want to take it again and again and again. But eventually, it's time to just move on.

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

I fear if I took the pill once, and I assume it kept my body comfortably livable as well, I would want to take it again and again and again. But eventually, it's time to just move on.

I'd be a fucking pill addict. I'd live to see Andromeda collide with the Milky Way, treat myself to glorious evenings under a grand blossoming of cosmos, I would live among its progression. I would watch and familiarize myself with a plethora of species, I'd watch them evolve. Perhaps I would aid in the domestication or advance of a few which I admire. I would travel the earth and simulations of past earths; I'd be the babelfish, I'd be a walking library. Voracious, I would travel to distant stars and exchange information about the development of earth at a valuable price: equivalent information on their own planet. I would keep in contact with all of my friends.

That's what I'd do.

Originally Posted by Abra

I'd be a fucking pill addict. I'd live to see Andromeda collide with the Milky Way, treat myself to glorious evenings under a grand blossoming of cosmos, I would live among its progression. I would watch and familiarize myself with a plethora of species, I'd watch them evolve. Perhaps I would aid in the domestication or advance of a few which I admire. I would travel the earth and simulations of past earths; I'd be the babelfish, I'd be a walking library. Voracious, I would travel to distant stars and exchange information about the development of earth at a valuable price: equivalent information on their own planet.
.

I would do all these If I and I alone were allowed to. I wouldn't find it as interesting if everyone became walking libraries.

Maybe that makes me greedy, which I normally am not as a person, but It would take out the fun for me if everyone was doing it.

Originally Posted by Abra

I'd be a fucking pill addict. I'd live to see Andromeda collide with the Milky Way, treat myself to glorious evenings under a grand blossoming of cosmos, I would live among its progression. I would watch and familiarize myself with a plethora of species, I'd watch them evolve. Perhaps I would aid in the domestication or advance of a few which I admire. I would travel the earth and simulations of past earths; I'd be the babelfish, I'd be a walking library. Voracious, I would travel to distant stars and exchange information about the development of earth at a valuable price: equivalent information on their own planet. I would keep in contact with all of my friends.

That's what I'd do.

I find it interesting that you utilize the word addict while talking about something related to choice