Thread: Has everything happened before. It sure feels like it.

The fact is, that Nirvana has resorted to nothing but made up laws to support his claim. Beleving in free will is as ridiculous as believing in the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus.

Have we pursuaded you yet?[/quote]

Hey Deanarino...I also PMed this to you, but I figured I may as well post it here.

...................

I was flipping through the tv channels yesterday and I stopped on this one tv show that I didn't know what it was but it caught my attention...there was this guy walking alone and the narration of what he was thinking said something that just really made me think about you. Anyway...it went something like this.

The world is expanding...and eventually it will collapse back on itself...and after it does that it will begin to expand again and everything will be the same as it is now...the world will expand and collapse on itself over and over again for all eternity and we will be living these same lives over and over again, making the same mistakes. So don't make mistakes in this lifetime...because it's the only one you've got.

Weird huh. I don't really know what to make of that.

That's from the movie K-Pax isn't it?

hmmnm, how to explain what i'm thinking... If i make a choice, i make it based on everythinng that has gone before. it is all my personal experiences that contribute make me (relativley) individual and me. recent experiences (and ones i havent forgotten) will affect a choice the most and each choice is made logically even if the logic is on the sub-concience/sub-atomic scale.

i like it that way. for it to be made any other way would make it a random event, deffinatley not 'free will'

if given the same choice again with EXACTLY the same surcumstances, state of mind etc and to make the same choice every time means that it is ME that is choosing. If i made a different choice then it couldnt be me choosing get me? cos why would i choose differently unless the choice was decided by random?

i'm giving myself a head-ache, i wish some-one would invent a telepathy machine it would make philosophical disscussion a hell of a lot easier

Think of the past years. Think of the year 0. This is 2005. So we are '+2005'. Now, it has been said that there is an infinite amount of numbers, so there could easily be a '-infin.' that happened B.C.

Time is just how we keep track of things. It never existed before humans (not animals in general, but humans sepcificly, because of our intelligance compared to other animals). We, as humans, create things all the time we don't need, one being time. Others being computers, chairs, cars, etc. Of course, time is much older than chairs, cars, or compters, so we as humans consider it to have always been there; existing.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

it has been said that there is an infinite amount of numbers[/b]

The thing is, I don't see any relevance about unlimited numbers having anything to do with what I was talking about.

Time is just how we keep track of things[/b]

I was not talking about clocktime, or even time itself as you are understanding it. What I was talking about is the events and cause and effect itself, and how the structure of everything relates to whatever the nature of time is at its deepest level is and how the illusion is created.

It never existed before humans[/b]

\"IT\" never existed? I am so lost with this statement I do not even know how to relate to it. Since we are talking about totally different things.

We, as humans, create things all the time we don't need, one being time. Others being computers, chairs, cars, etc. Of course, time is much older than chairs, cars, or compters, so we as humans consider it to have always been there; existing.[/b]

Humans do not create 'time', you are talking about clocktime, a different 'time' concept.
but it has nothing to do with what I was talking about. This is why I consider this off topic. I was more talking about what hold it all together. I'm sure the true nature of time reveals a great secret which would be 1 dimension above us.

Time is infinite. It is a circle repeating itself. Past, present and future are only imaginary dates humans create to ensure that they aren't lost in the universe. Since time is cyclical, the future can be read just as easily as the past, only our minds aren't developed yet to peer into the future (although occurences have happened). This explains premonitions, prophecies, and possibly deja vu.

My theory: With precise analysis and examination of precceding events, the human mind is capable of predicting future events.

Originally posted by NirvanaStarseed
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

it has been said that there is an infinite amount of numbers

The thing is, I don't see any relevance about unlimited numbers having anything to do with what I was talking about.

Time is just how we keep track of things[/b]

I was not talking about clocktime, or even time itself as you are understanding it. What I was talking about is the events and cause and effect itself, and how the structure of everything relates to whatever the nature of time is at its deepest level is and how the illusion is created.

It never existed before humans[/b]

\"IT\" never existed? I am so lost with this statement I do not even know how to relate to it. Since we are talking about totally different things.

We, as humans, create things all the time we don't need, one being time. Others being computers, chairs, cars, etc. Of course, time is much older than chairs, cars, or compters, so we as humans consider it to have always been there; existing.[/b]

Humans do not create 'time', you are talking about clocktime, a different 'time' concept.
but it has nothing to do with what I was talking about. This is why I consider this off topic. I was more talking about what hold it all together. I'm sure the true nature of time reveals a great secret which would be 1 dimension above us.[/b]

Well, there goes my confidence *flushes toliet*

"True Freedom is having no choice"

Originally posted by KING
hmmnm, how to explain what i'm thinking... If i make a choice, i make it based on everythinng that has gone before. it is all my personal experiences that contribute make me (relativley) individual and me. recent experiences (and ones i havent forgotten) will affect a choice the most and each choice is made logically even if the logic is on the sub-concience/sub-atomic scale.

The individual mind is structured within a “static bubble”. Confined, to one’s own limited understandings, and experiences. In order to protect itself from things which it has not experienced i.e. “deposing beliefs, or things which are beyond its perception” it is incapable of believing in” That. There is an order of control over one’s life. You can not have control over it, if you are not the originator of it. It is necessary to keep the illusion of choice so that one does not succumb to the mindset of: “what ever will be, will be!” There is a great order than what man is capable of…
Thank God for that!
The Rev.

Originally posted by NirvanaStarseed




I have dejavu all the time and I get this screwed up feeling that everything has just happened, yet i can't remember it until it has happened. maybe I am just tuning into the oneness and can recognize the possibilities that were always going to come about.

If you made it to here reading that well done. it is alot of ramble. I still cant figure out the dejavu feeling, so it makes me think alot about time. Purpose. and the structure of everything.


I thought so much, had so many things floating around in my head. It turned to slush and I discovered nothing.

This "dejavu" is your true self ~(Spirit)~ telling your carnal mind that it has already lived this life, and that nothing is unknow to it, or impossible for it. Embrace these feelings and try to foresee them and you will gain a clearer sence of your calling here...

Awaken4e1

wow, in your words unless I'm wrong I can see a presence of awareness in you.
or atleast i felt it. Congradulations!

Colour_My_World

Well, there goes my confidence[/b]

dont lose your confidence!!! I know what you were saying and your spot on, I was just talking about time on a level beyond linear clocktime.

Deja vu is a glitch in your nervous system. You recieve the same set of stimuli twice, milliseconds apart. This creates the perception that you are experiencing the same set of events a second time.

It makes no sense to experience the same events twice, milleseconds apart, so your brain concocts the story that they must have happened at some time in the past.

Voila, Deja vu is the result.

How does one recieve every sense they have (through the nervous system?) including and expecially higher senses, twice milliseconds apart? and why? If a person is blind they do not conclude that everything is blackness. So even if this was somehow happening it does not mean I'd conclude anything. I'm more likely to feel or know something is happening or wrong with my nervous system. because I could feel that.

Did you think up this idea, or get it from somewhere, It needs more of an explaination about how it works.

This is the leading theory as taught in university level Psychology courses. Your brain recieves the information twice because it takes separate paths to the brain, one is slightly longer than the other.

As for your blind man thought experiment. Blind people know that everything is not blackness because they are told otherwise. A blind person who had never been in contact with other people would definitely think that everything is blackness because that is all they know.

Deja vu is very different. The experience is not as a concrete as vision, and so it is more open to interpretation.

And no, you wouldn't be able to feel it.

Originally posted by bradybaker
]Take any specific set of circumstances you wish in which a decision must be made. For the sake of this argument I'll use the example of having to choose an apple or an piece of chocolate for a snack.

The instant that that decision must be made there are an infinite number of factors that influence your decision. For example (this is extremely simplified), you might have a craving for the sweet, rich chocolate and you might have recently had a bad experience with a bruised apple. These are examples of factors that go into the decision, conciously or not. In this set of circumstances you would choose the chocolate.

Now, if those exact circumstances (cravings, thoughts, air temp, level of mental awareness, everything) were recreated 1000 times, every single one of those times you would choose the chocolate. Therefore, under any one set of circumstances, there is only one possible choice that can be made. At that moment in time, it is physical impossible for you to choose the apple, it becomes a non-option.

In a previous thread.
Nirvana, this is what they mean by no "free will." Here's an analogy: What people think is "free will" is just like one big math equations. If you have an infinite number of variables, all the same, and you add, subtract, multiply, etc. all of them together, you will ALWAYS COME OUT WITH THE SAME ANSWER. With the same variables all together, the same choice always comes out. You think its you making a "decision" but its really these infinite, usually incredibly small variables all acting upon you to make you "choose" what to do. Even things that do not seem obvious at all, such as the color of something next to the subject of your choice, or some other vauge variable, may remotely effect your decision somehow.

Brady.

I am skeptical about this theory. I don't believe that when I see an event or meet someone or whatever, that it is sent to all my senses twice. through my nervous system or anything. Its just a stupid theory they made up. They don't know how it would work, or explain it properly. They are just guessing. They dont even know what dejavu is. And what I am refering to is probally not even Dejavu.

It would be an interesting experiment to see what happens if you let someone blind from birth be in a neutral setting, and see if he comes to the conclusion that everything is blackness. Personally I think he would have some concept of light and vision and be able to tell he is blind... Rather than believing it is just how everything is. You'd be suprised how unpredictable and unknown the results of experiments like this can be. You predict with confidence what would happen. Because you think you know. But you should have seen how shocked they were when they tested the properties of light, and it did not conform to their expectations. It just did not make sense to them and they were lost. This is what happens when something reveals a part of something you never saw before and you are at a loss to explain what is causing it, Because you don't believe or know about the cause.

Eric.

I understand what you and brady are saying about cause and effect. I am going a step further and saying, your essence is made of the very stuff that created all this. At its core are infinite revelations that go deeper and deeper down to the essence of consiousness, how and why you are what you are. And what you are is will/decision.

Yet this is the paradox that you will find hard to understand and get your head around.
because everything you have decided is has and was. Because what we are speaking of is outside the concept of time.

Thats why it apears you have no chocie, because you have both already made it, and not made it, and will make it. Yet it is still all your decision regardless. Even your unconsious forgeting about this is your decision, all this for purposes yet to be revealed. Your decision (which you may not be in contact with or know about) has/is/was made from the highest infinite understanding possible, and therefore it is perfect what we, it has done.As a result it may be that everything was is will happen this way. But only because its the best decision that was,is,will be made possible. So the best outcome is the result. your mistake is thinking that it was not your choice. When your merely disconnected from yourself and have created a counterfiet lower will which you imagine is yours. Seperate to the real one. When you connect the too, and you see yourself. See past this complexity.
You will understand its simplicity and why it only SEEMS you have no choice, When the real choice has always been yours.

All this is very hard to explain in normal writing. As it is such a primitive means of communcation.

Originally posted by NirvanaStarseed
Brady.

I am skeptical about this theory. I don't believe that when I see an event or meet someone or whatever, that it is sent to all my senses twice. through my nervous system or anything. Its just a stupid theory they made up. They don't know how it would work, or explain it properly. They are just guessing. They dont even know what dejavu is. And what I am refering to is probally not even Dejavu.

That sounds really foolish. Now, what is your reasoning behind \"its a stupid theory they just made up\" and \"they are just guessing.\" Yes, they know how it would work. The memory travels (this is from what I understand from Brady) through two paths, one longer than the other, therefore the memory sometimes feels like it happened at two times. Are you a major in neurology? And baselessly saying \"they dont even know what dejavu is\" is not a very good argument. Please, if you are going to make claims like that, back them up.

It would be an interesting experiment to see what happens if you let someone blind from birth be in a neutral setting, and see if he comes to the conclusion that everything is blackness. Personally I think he would have some concept of light and vision and be able to tell he is blind... Rather than believing it is just how everything is. You'd be suprised how unpredictable and unknown the results of experiments like this can be. You predict with confidence what would happen. Because you think you know. But you should have seen how shocked they were when they tested the properties of light, and it did not conform to their expectations. It just did not make sense to them and they were lost. This is what happens when something reveals a part of something you never saw before and you are at a loss to explain what is causing it, Because you don't believe or know about the cause.
[/b]

Well, I believe a blind person would eventually find out not everything was \"blackness.\" Feeling the warmth of light on their face, they might observe that there must be some source of warmth from it, so they wonder what could cause that. Also, as they move around they figure that some sort of matter must make up the things they are feeling, so they think about that. I suppose it would be a lot harder without people telling them, but it is still not totally impossible for a blind person to indeed find out that not everything is blackness.

Eric.

I understand what you and brady are saying about cause and effect. I am going a step further and saying, your essence is made of the very stuff that created all this. At its core are infinite revelations that go deeper and deeper down to the essence of consiousness, how and why you are what you are. And what you are is will/decision.

Yet this is the paradox that you will find hard to understand and get your head around.
because everything you have decided is has and was. Because what we are speaking of is outside the concept of time.

Thats why it apears you have no chocie, because you have both already made it, and not made it, and will make it. Yet it is still all your decision regardless. Even your unconsious forgeting about this is your decision, all this for purposes yet to be revealed. Your decision (which you may not be in contact with or know about) has/is/was made from the highest infinite understanding possible, and therefore it is perfect what we, it has done.As a result it may be that everything was is will happen this way. But only because its the best decision that was,is,will be made possible. So the best outcome is the result. your mistake is thinking that it was not your choice. When your merely disconnected from yourself and have created a counterfiet lower will which you imagine is yours. Seperate to the real one. When you connect the too, and you see yourself. See past this complexity.
You will understand its simplicity and why it only SEEMS you have no choice, When the real choice has always been yours.

All this is very hard to explain in normal writing. As it is such a primitive means of communcation.[/b]

Not "cause and effect." Its the reasons behind our "choices." And I hope you understand we are not talking about some surpreme diety already making our choices so all of our choices are already made, because we are not. We are saying that as we go along, things effect us on our choices and are little variables that control our decisions. Please back up your statement "it only FEELS like we dont have choice, but we actually do."

I don't believe that when I see an event or meet someone or whatever, that it is sent to all my senses twice.[/b]

Regardless of whether you believe it or not, I assure you that this is not a \"stupid theory that they made up\". A lot of experimental evidence links this glitch in the nervous system to a feeling described as deja vu.

And what I am refering to is probally not even Dejavu.[/b]

So let me get this straight...you're refuting a theory that explains something you aren't even talking about? Perhaps you should figure out what exactly it is that you're referring to? If you aren't referring to deja vu, stop calling it that.

It would be an interesting experiment to see what happens if you let someone blind from birth be in a neutral setting, and see if he comes to the conclusion that everything is blackness. Personally I think he would have some concept of light and vision and be able to tell he is blind... Rather than believing it is just how everything is.[/b]

You should read Plato's Allegory of the Cave.
http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12719

The counter-intuitive properties of light have nothing to do with human psychology. Saying that an isolated blind man could figure out that he is blind is like saying someone who has never seen a horse could draw a picture of one.

As for the cause and effect junk...there's no such thing as an "essence of consciousness" and no, it's not outside the concept of time.

ok I'll bite......

Eric

\"this is from what I understand from Brady\"

interesting choice of words.....

through two paths, one longer than the other, therefore. the memory sometimes feels like it happened at two times. Are you a major in neurology?

Is that your final explanation? Are you a major in neurology? And what does it matter?
I'm not a priest either.

baselessly saying \"they dont even know what dejavu is\" is not a very good argument. Please, if you are going to make claims like that, back them up.

I am not making an argument, Just saying what I know. If you want detailed reason on every single claim you dissagree with that is getting ridiculous. It does not make what I said any less true. If you wanted more info about it you could have just asked. Instead of calling it a 'bad argument'. The simple fact is they dont know what dejavu is for sure. If this is not true why don't you prove me wrong instead of assuming I do not know what I am talking about.

Not \"cause and effect.\" Its the reasons behind our \"choices.\"

whats the difference Einstein . Reasons behind choices equals cause and effect.

I hope you understand we are not talking about some surpreme diety already making our choices so all of our choices are already made

I have no idea what you are talking about here.

We are saying that as we go along, things effect us on our choices and are little variables that control our decisions.

yeah and its called cause and effect.

Please back up your statement \"it only FEELS like we dont have choice, but we actually do

that would take a long time with you, as your mind is already closed to the idea. and I do not feel a need to back my statements up any further, because you are not asking, your merely attacking my position. Which is redundant in itself.



bradybaker
Quote:

Regardless of whether you believe it or not, I assure you that this is not a \"stupid theory that they made up\". A lot of experimental evidence links this glitch in the nervous system to a feeling described as deja vu.

Alot of things link to alot of things, but where is this experimental evidence? Cause I havn't been able to find it, I would be delighted if you showed me some I could have a read through or something.

So let me get this straight...you're refuting a theory that explains something you aren't even talking about? Perhaps you should figure out what exactly it is that you're referring to? If you aren't referring to deja vu, stop calling it that.

I was saying I am skeptical the theory explains the entire mystery around the dejavu like experiences. The subject is complex. not black and white. Everything is not so neatly completely defined and finished knowledge wise. You may want to rush through and complete your knowledge so it goes in a nice neat circle, black and white, clear cut. As quick as possible. But you can never really close the circle or have this. There is always the mystery. If you try to kill the mystery with made up knowledge it will be flawed with ignorance. Dejavu is a word I adopted because I can't think of a better word that would really explain it. Such an experience comes in many different degrees and forms.

Quote:

The counter-intuitive properties of light have nothing to do with human psychology.

I was not talking about counter-intuitive properties of light

Saying that an isolated blind man could figure out that he is blind is like saying someone who has never seen a horse could draw a picture of one.

An isolated blind man depending on his intelligence, could determine the reality around him in direct proportion to his desire, effort, persistence, ability and approach. He could observe in such a way as to find out about his physical disability easily. Someone who has never seen a horse could draw it if it was described. Or felt. Or seen through other senses other than the physical eyes. Once again you are assuming things without really thinking about them and being simplistic about the comparrison when it is more complicated and involved than this. I admit If we are too quick to speak without thinking about what we are saying, or listening to what the other is trying to say. We are being a bit foolish.

You are also predicting that something is impossible to do for a person. Jesus was said to have walked on water, are you saying this is impossible? And the countless other things people have done that you would have declared impossible is laughable.

As for the cause and effect junk...there's no such thing as an \"essence of consciousness\" and no, it's not outside the concept of time.

why is cause and effect junk? First define \"time', as we are talking about it. Define 'essence of consiousness', Define 'cause and effect'. As you can see that sentence is uselessly irrelevant in relation to my post. You started the sentence as if you had something to say about what I was saying, and finished it off in a few words with basiclly nothing more than \"no, there is no such thing\" If you wish to make a point about how wrong I am, you must explain yourself......if you do not define your definitions of those concepts I mentioned above it is useless.[/quote]

lastly, One of the reasons (just one) I said it was a stupid theory to explain it away is because just about everyone has had dejavu at some point. They are living their life then boom, Dejavu hits at an unexpected moment. It seems unlikely such an arrangement of the nervous system would be entirely at cause for this. As the results are inconsistent and don't seem to match up or make sense with this thoery as you have explained it so far, There is much more that contributes to this. Obviously it calls for elaboration. Since you have givin very little information about how the theory actually works. Yet I dont want this to get into a pointless argument. This is where it gets really hard to stay focused and clear, honest and real, without losing the discussion to an attack on each other. So I just want to let you know I respect what you know, and what your trying to say. But you are missing bits, large bits, of the picture. I want to say all this without offense to anyone. I dont think I need to explain myself much more. If the discussion suddenly took a turn for the best maybe it could be worth continuing.

im too tired to read any of this, but NOT too tired to put in my two cents!
is this one of those threads that happenys with too much herb is involved? lol j/k

i dont need herbs I'm naturally stone.

A second (very similar) scientific explanation:

"Déjà vu has been subjected in recent years to serious psychological and neurophysiological research. The most likely candidate for explanation, according to scientists in these fields, is that déjà vu is not an act of "precognition" or "prophecy" but is actually an anomaly of memory; it is the impression that an experience is "being recalled" which is false. This is substantiated to an extent by the fact that in most cases the sense of "recollection" at the time is strong, but any circumstances of the "previous" experience (when, where and how the earlier experience occurred) are quite uncertain. Likewise, as time passes, subjects can exhibit a strong recollection of having the "unsettling" experience of déjà vu itself, but little to no recollection of the specifics of the event(s) or circumstances they were "remembering" when they had the déjà vu experience, and in particular, this may result from an overlap between the neurological systems responsible for short-term memory (events which are perceived as being in the present) and those responsible for long-term memory (events which are perceived as being in the past)."

Related phenomena include:
Deja vecu
Deja visite
Deja senti

The theory that I introduced is simply an extension of this. The cause of the anomaly in memory.

You see, all the sensory data that you recieve (with the exception of olfaction, aka smell) travels to a special part of the brain called the thalamus which acts as sort of a "sensory switchboard" and it located at the top of the brainstem.

However, the thalamus is much more complex than just a few neural pathways leading to different parts of the brain. It consists of many, many pathways. Many often leading in the same direction. So you see, it is quite possible for one sensation to get split up among these pathways (some longer than others) and arrive at the cerebellum at different times. Thus creating an anomaly in memory.

Originally posted by NirvanaStarseed+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NirvanaStarseed)</div>

The subject is complex.[/b]

As is the explanation.

Originally posted by NirvanaStarseed+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NirvanaStarseed)</div>

I was not talking about counter-intuitive properties of light [/b]

Yes you were.

Originally posted by a few posts ago+ NirvanaStarseed--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(a few posts ago &#064; NirvanaStarseed)</div>

But you should have seen how shocked they were when they tested the properties of light, and it did not conform to their expectations. It just did not make sense to them and they were lost.[/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-NirvanaStarseed
Someone who has never seen a horse could draw it if it was described.

Obviously. We're talking about a person in ISOLATION.

Can a person feel light? Could you even possibly describe what it is to see? Please tell me how you would describe colour to someone who has never seen before.

Here's a more fitting analogy. Saying that an isolated blind person could figure out that he is blind is like saying that a person without ears could figure out what one of Beethoven's symphonies sounds like.

Originally posted by NirvanaStarseed
Jesus was said to have walked on water, are you saying this is impossible?

Yes.

Originally posted by NirvanaStarseed
And the countless other things people have done that you would have declared impossible is laughable.

Such as?

Originally posted by NirvanaStarseed
Define 'essence of consiousness'

Those are your words, not mine.

Originally posted by NirvanaStarseed
if you do not define your definitions of those concepts I mentioned above it is useless.

You are the one who introduced the concepts into the discussion.

<!--QuoteBegin-NirvanaStarseed@
lastly, One of the reasons (just one) I said it was a stupid theory to explain it away is because just about everyone has had dejavu at some point.

Yeah, about 70% of people. All that does is prove that such glitches in memory and perception are quite common.

<!--QuoteBegin-NirvanaStarseed
I dont think I need to explain myself much more. If the discussion suddenly took a turn for the best maybe it could be worth continuing.

Aw, come on man. Don't cop out now, we're finally getting somewhere.

Quantum theory teaches us that anything that can happen will happen, it just so happens that we live in a universe where the passage of events is like it is. And there are infinite copies of ourselves in other, replicating, universes where things have happened differently.

I watched a programme on this and it's my only source of reference, so please correct me if I'm wrong.