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      nikki gogodoll's Avatar
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      what is the death of ego?

      can any one explain this to me please, how can one achieve it and what happens if its achieved?
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      the death of the ego can mean a few different things. in once sense it is where the idea that there is a "self" ceases to exist. for example, if you find yourself knowing, not intellectualizing but actually knowing (difference between eating an egg for the first time and having it described to you) that each thought you have and everything you experience is temporary and not self. even consciousness is not really "you", as it changes and does not DO exactly what you want. you do not directly control every little thing in your consciousness. things arise, and then eventually cease. no exceptions. again, the key here is direct knowledge, not just understanding by inference.

      this can be anything from the above to a direct cognition of a mind expanding state of consciousness where the mind recognizes no separation between the universe and itself. there is not worry, stress, grief, despair, or covetousness for the world as the mind sees no difference between the all and the one.

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      what is the death of ego?
      can any one explain this to me please, how can one achieve it and what happens if its achieved?
      who's trying to achieve what? you mean the ego trying to kill itself?

      i don't think the ego ever really dies but rather you become detached from it.
      and if the ego does die then who will be their to think in terms of "i have achieved ego death"?
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      I believe when people talk about ego death they are talking about a detachment like tropicalbreeze mentioned. It could be a good thing if you are trying to do it through meditation, or a bad thing if you are suffering from some kind of psychological issue. It might be a good thing to experience when considering important issues if you are trying to be objective and take the issue as it is without any bias. However you wouldn't want to be in a permanent state of it, since you would experience no sense of self preservation and might do stupid things that get you killed.

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      furthermore, the term "ego" is the term for the illusory self that creates the problem of suffering. for example, if we see a news story about a man who lost his wallet and we literally think he is us and that means we have lost our wallet, that is delusion to be certain. the same can be said for ideas of the self or ego. when a negative emotion or feelings arise, it is just like the man and his wallet. not really related to us, not under our control, and not self. once the ego "dies" we see things differently, we feel at peace with whatever our situation may be.

      this can be temporary or permanent. for many spiritual practices this is the ultimate goal.

      to be certain, this is an extremely difficult state to achieve. if achieved with buddhist practices the continuation of it is to keep up with the buddhist practices of non violence, compassion and so on. going back into negative actions and emotions would dissolve this state and make one start building up the fictional "ego" again. however if one achieves the permanent death of the ego one will not be able to commit negative actions ever again.

      really ego death is not a commonly used phrase in buddhism. i'm not sure about other traditions. in buddhism we say "realization of the not self characteristic". it is "ego death" though and so it appropriately answers your original post.

      to achieve ego death one should practice the four foundations of mindfulness dilligently, practice jhana and use the concentration brought about by these two practices to look at ones emotions, thoughts and feelings and try to trace their roots back into the consciousness. one should even try to trace the root of each conscious moment. this will yeild little but intellectual speculation if done without the prerequisites of the four foundations and jhana (or at least access concentration).

      also, in the buddhist version of ego death there is no risk that you will "experience no sense of self preservation and might do stupid things that get you killed". i don't know about other traditions, perhaps there is some tradition that teaches some version that makes this happen to people and that's what the other person is talking about. in buddhism however the only way this would happen is if a person had some kind of psychological problems to begin with or were under the influence of drugs or something, if this is the case, do not try to dissolve your ego until you talk to a doctor or something. any kind of bizarre behavior involved with ego practice in buddhism would have nothing to do with buddhism or ego death but would be a problem with the practitioner. also i have never heard of such a thing. ask around, see if anyone knows a buddhist who reached enlightenment (or the very close to it stage of ego death) and then got themselves killed because they started doing stupid things.

      the mind still functions appropriately without the illusion of the ego. the same as non deluded person can still wonder if they have their wallet in their pocket without thinking the man on tv is literally them.

      the ego holds no illusion over the mind any more, you notice a negative emotion and it disappears. that does not mean you wander into traffic with your eyes closed or something. in fact you make much better decisions as they are all made while looking at the big picture. see a storm cloud, you don't think it is literally part of your consciousness, you can remain neutral about it and just grab an umbrella. the same goes for thoughts. you may feel you don't want to go to work or volunteer for charity, but you see that it's just a negative emotional storm cloud so you cast it off with jhana meditation and go do what's right. people who dissolve their egos are the purest beings in the universe, in buddhism anyway. i keep saying that because i know ego death is a very broad term and is used by many traditions from hinduism all the way to western philosophy and on and on, and all i know is buddhism and i don't want to sound like i'm attempting to speak for all of the different versions of this term.
      Last edited by anderj101; 03-20-2013 at 04:07 AM. Reason: Merged

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      nikki gogodoll's Avatar
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      thanks a lot Dareloth since u seem to know a lot about this subject can you tell me if there are some small everyday things that i can practice as a normal person not as a Buddhist monk that can help me get closer to the stage that i can be even a little bit free from the trap of my ego.

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      Ego death is a psychological phenomenon which involves a disruption in the subconscious process which identifies the boundaries between one's body and one's environment. The experience often has varying religious or spiritual ideas associated with it due to the unusual nature of the interruption of such a basic cognitive process.
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      the practice itself is not really anything that would be easily identified as "buddhist" per se. mostly because the one i do is theravada which is the oldest known version of buddhism and is very austere and follows logical progressions. you won't be chanting, dancing, or praying. the only thing that seems very buddhist is meditation, the rest have nearly identical equivalents in modern secular psychological practices.

      they are as follows (i'll leave out the buddhist stuff):

      first here is an excellent summary, if you can just do this, you're in good shape!


      Ask yourself: "Am I aware of what is going on from moment to moment, whether good or bad, and letting it go, without clinging to it or feeling aversion?" If the answer is yes, be assured you are getting benefit that will increase day by day.


      -that is a quote from a wonderful site on vipassana which is the same practice (usually without jhana though): vipassanadhura

      here is a more in depth explanation of the practice (again i'm leaving out the directly buddhist stuff):

      pay attention to your breathing at all times. mindful but not feirce focus. let all other thoughts go gently, do not force them away or anything and if you have something you NEED to think about it then let the breath go temporarily and come back to it afterwards. the same goes for any activity you MUST do that cannot be done while keeping mindfulness of breathing (breathing technically is part of foundation number one: contemplation of the body).

      in addition to this primary mindfulness of breathing, keep in mind the following:

      1. pay close attention to the position of your body at all times; whether walking, standing, sitting, or lying down. keep it in mind with bare attention, not extremely focused, but not distracted either. see your body as a body, not as your body (ie. see it as not self). contemplate the body in it's nature of arising (how a body is born and lives based on conditions such as air, food, water, and so on). contemplate the body in it's nature of vanishing (how a body will eventually cease to be based on natural conditions). keep bare mindfulness that "there is a body" to the extent necessary for bare knowledge and mindfulness. abide independent, not clinging to anything in the world.

      2. pay close attention to your feelings, painful, pleasant or neither painful nor pleasant. if you feel a pain in your leg, see it as a pain, not "my pain" just note that "there is pain" and let it go. contemplate the feelings in their nature of arising (how a feeling becomes based on conditions such as external influence, internal interaction and whatever conditions lead to their arising). contemplate the feelings in their nature of vanishing (how a feeling will eventually cease to be based on the lack of the conditions required for it to exist). keep bare mindfulness that "there are feelings" to the extent necessary for bare knowledge and mindfulness. abide independent, not clinging to anything in the world.

      3. pay close attention to your mind state. whether affected by (or unaffected by these states) lust (can be many types of lust, even for food or material objects), hate, delusion, whether it is contracted, distracted, exalted, surpassed, concentrated, or liberated (liberated means ego death). see each one of these condition as just conditions, not as me or mind. so it's not "i'm so full of hatred!" it's just "there is hatred", it is not "self" just a mind state. contemplate the mind in it's nature of arising (how a mind condition arises and thrives based on supports or causes such as seeing tasty food or someone saying something offensive). contemplate the mind in it's nature of vanishing (how each mind state will vanish when conditions cease, you forget about the tasty food, or you let go of the offensive comment, or other ways things cease). keep bare mindfulness that "there is a mind" to the extent necessary for bare knowledge and mindfulness. abide independent, not clinging to anything in the world.

      4. pay close attention to mind objects, whether in the mind there is (or is not) sense desire, ill will, sloth and torpor, covetousness and grief, skeptical doubt. contemplate the mind objects in their nature of arising (how a mind state arises and exists such as ill will arising when you become unhappy with a condition). contemplate the mind objects in their nature of vanishing (how a mind object will eventually cease once it's support lacks, such as ill will fading once it has been left alone or other ways mind objects fade). keep bare mindfulness that "there are mind states" to the extent necessary for bare knowledge and mindfulness. abide independent, not clinging to anything in the world. there is a LOT more to this fourth foundation but they are very much buddhist and would take a great deal of explanation that is exclusive to buddhism. i would be happy to explain, just let me know. however one can get by on just what i've written above for the most part.

      now the other part of practice many say is not necessary (and i't definitely buddhist so you may want to stop here), i agree with this, but i think it's like using a manual bike pump to fill up your car tire when you have an air compressor handy; while it will work, it's much more difficult. using jhana means super focus of the mind which, once mastered and turned back onto the mind itself, yields nearly immediate results. you see deeply into the mind. it's the still forest pool metaphor: when the water is churned up it becomes muddy and you can't see very deep into it, but let it settle and it's crystal clear and you can see all that lays within.

      practicing jhana is sitting in breath meditation and then once the mind is very focused on only the breath, continuing to develop into the first jhana which is pure bliss accompanied by some focused thinking. during this or after this one can practice seeing things as not self with great ease. thoughts come up and just fall away. the illusion is no match for a mind focused with jhana. then once this first jhana is mastered (and only then) we move onto the higher jhanas: bliss with not thought, equanimity with positive body feeling, and neither painful nor pleasent. each one is a higher focus. there are four more formless jahas that are refinements of the fourth one. and then there's a rarely talked about ninth jhana, supposedly if you can get this high you are enlightened. so jhana one makes it easy to see not self as things arise, jhana nine probably there is not even the necessity to see things like that, one just KNOWS already. i'm only mastering the first jhana, but i've experienced up to the third and maybe just broached the fourth. one is not supposed to move up until mastering each one.

      oh and the site i quoted earlier has a great little paragraph on how you don't have to be buddhist to practice (to be clear i have nothing to do with this site, i don't even use it, it is just a great bridge between theravada buddhist scriptures, which is what i study and practice, and the secular world):

      "Vipassana meditation comes from the tradition of Theravada Buddhism. (The Theravada school is based on a group of texts called the "Pali canon," which is widely regarded as the earliest surviving record of the Buddhist teachings). But you don't have to be a Buddhist to practice vipassana or benefit from developing mindfulness. It is not a religion. Vipassana is a simple, gentle technique suitable for men and women of any age, race or creed."

      if you are interested further check out

      double u double u double u dot vipassanadhura dot com

      sorry for writing that weird, i can't write links because i'm too new.

      for more information on jhana just look around, there are many different teachers and many different interpretations

      also check out the satipatthana sutta which is largely the basis for the vipassana movement. i'm currently memorizing this sutta which is the buddha's teaching on how to practice all of this.

      double u double u double u dot accesstoinsight dot org is a web site that has the sutta for free, just search "satipatthana" also look at the maha satipatthana as it has a bit more information but is otherwise identical.
      Last edited by anderj101; 03-20-2013 at 04:08 AM. Reason: Merged 3 posts

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      nikki gogodoll's Avatar
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      dear Dareloth wow thank you so much for taking the time to share these amazing things with me , it all makes so much sense specially the practice of jhana and good luck with your journey , i will keep you updated on how i am going with my progress.

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      glad i could help!

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      gogodol

      I just realised that you are my 66th "like. then I realised that if I click on my "likes" in my profile I go to a place were I can visit the post that I "liked". I've been here years and just found that out.

      ok I read this thread last night and slept-on-it.

      Woke, no remembered dreams but. I found myself thinking of the "two birds in a tree" spiritual story.

      Now at 7:55 am Wed 5-Dec I realize that the tread has been fermenting in me as I slept, and encouraging me to remember the "two birds in a tree" story and begin practicing it again.

      The tree is this body or my world.

      one bird is me. "I" am fully absorbed in my life. I am unaware of the other bird higher-up in the tree. The bird higher-up in the tree looks like me but is much more beautiful, calm, relaxed and kind-of fluffy. I know that because there was a time that I glanced up and saw it and wondered about it.

      The story goes that, "that" bird never thinks, or feels, and therefore, never judges me. It only "compassionatly, observes and eternally waits.

      Someday I will spiritually mature enough to notice the other bird noticing me.

      later still I will wonder what the other bird sees when it sees me. That thought caused a spontanious spiritual thing to start happengng. I begin to be both birds for brief, occasional, moments.

      Then, noticing the freedom this practice brings I want more and more of that freedom. So, I let go of being the lower, fully-absorbed (in my life) bird and more and more "be" the calm, observing bird.

      And this led to my enlihhtenment in 1975 (age 15).

      Thanks to this thread I'm going back to that practice.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm2h...e_gdata_player

      Edit

      All the wotds yo "Be".

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGpV...e_gdata_player
      Last edited by anderj101; 03-20-2013 at 04:09 AM. Reason: Merged 3 posts
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      "Enlightenment is ego's ultimate disappointment" -Chögyam Trungpa

      The ego achieves, one does not achieve ego death. One connects with the deeper Self and realizes the ego never existed to begin with.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      Dear debrajane i am so glad that you found this thread useful , i personally believe that our ego is the source of a lot of suffering that we go through in life , and i know that if i can detach myself even a little bit from it and for a few moments each day be able to just be the observer instead of being inside my head all the time i will be able to live a better life.

      tropicalbreeze and original poster both of you have mentioned that ego in a way is an illusion created by our mind , am i right please tell me if i am on the right track with my understanding of what u said above and if not please correct me.
      Last edited by anderj101; 03-20-2013 at 04:09 AM. Reason: Merged

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      Yes it is an illusion, but that doesn't mean you can snuff it out, just let it be an take the middle path. Only try to relieve as much desire as you can, and if that's too difficult, relieve the desire to relieve more desire than you are able.

      Moving beyond the ego is a process of understanding what you really are.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      I think "death" of ego can be achieved (temporarily of course) by simple meditation gearing towards a deep state of a mindset where the scatterbrain habit of the ego seeking rationale for the reality you're engaging yourself in is practically nonexistent.

      Because if you're not giving in to thought energy and maintaining neutrality, the ego cannot make a byproduct of that thought, or at least will have a hard time finding memory residue to do so.

      The death itself to me is the ego not being able to conjure thought. Thought energy itself is what I think sustains ego. Of course, I'm not trying to categorize ego as some separate entity. It's just making its awareness "stagnant" because the very same catalyst it relies on is not tangible.

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      yes the ego is an illusion. it can be shattered permanently, that's the goal. people all over, every day shatter it temporarily and this is good as it will be shattered for a small span (hours or a couple of days) and then after that it will creep back in but you can use the knowledge of it's possible end to better your life and spur on your practice making a more lasting state of egolessness your goal.

      the idea is that it seems like everything is utterly important, everything is self. someone takes your spot in line? YOUR day is ruined, YOU must be a weak person to let that happen, they did something mean to YOU. however really it's just an event as impersonal as two objects in outer space colliding a billion light years from earth. once you see this deeply you will feel free and see that the ego is an illusion, a trick of the light, a mirage. again, it must be knowing, not intellectual inference. although intellectual inference, such as reminding yourself that all mind moments, emotions, etc. are impersonal is a very useful tool.
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      Quote Originally Posted by gogodoll View Post
      can any one explain this to me please, how can one achieve it and what happens if its achieved?
      Decomposition.
      Try the other way around.
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      3 Core emotions must die within you for it to happen:

      Fear
      Self Importance
      Pity

      Get rid of them and you are no longer human.

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      Why do you need to get rid of them? I would say the opposite, that three qualities must be gained

      Love
      Self-realization
      Compassion

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      Because to kill your ego you need to kill what makes you YOU and what makes you human. Ego=You. Everything that makes you any significant must die for ego death. What you described relates to others and not yourself thus those things will not kill your ego but they might make you nicer.

      If anything the emotions you described only strengthens your ego.

      Ego is an important part of being a human and it isn't a bad thing. It is the thing that governs your survival and adaptation in the world of humans. You can be nice to everyone and still have ego.

      However if you want to be a warrior, a mage, a man of knowledge, ego is your obstacle to overcome and possibly kill.

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      You have a different definition of ego than I do. If we try and redefine ego to each other we will continue only to debate semantically. However, becoming "nicer" is not the goal either. Freedom is the goal, and the mind is the greatest prison when we agree with everything it says. To move beyond ego is as easy as realizing that your opinion of yourself is just an opinion, and that you do not really know what you are.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


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      So what is ego for you exactly?

      Ego is definitely an obstacle to ultimate freedom. But it isn't just an opinion of yourself, it's a system that keeps you from falling of the edges of human life. The things that block your freedom of actions are: Fear, Self Importance, and Pity. get rid of those and you a free to jump from the roof of human life to the great beyond. In other words do whatever.

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      I don't think I agree with that. While I do agree that the ego is typically the word used to describe the prison of the mind, I don't think it's related specifically to the words fear, self-importance and pity. I mean fear, certainly, but even without an ego your heart rate will still increase when the situation calls for it. And self-importance is something you don't need even with an ego. In fact a lot of the times the ego is wrapped up in a negative view of the self. Really, importance changes it's meaning because the past and future lose their's. As far as "self" importance is concerned, this is an identity thing related to the story we tell ourselves about ourselves. But understanding this is not ego death, it's existentialism. And as far as pity, I don't think that limits me at all. It's just an emotional reaction. It's not like pity holds me back from doing whatever I want.

      The reason I know I can do whatever I want is because I know that nothing I did will matter when I die, it's the same as becoming lucid in a dream, the same kind of freedom. Then again I've never advocated ego death because I think the terminology is fucking confusing. I prefer the word mindfulness.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    24. #24
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      Ego death means simply decentering from obsessive compulsive mental noise. from that, positive qualities arise much more naturally.
      Original Poster and gogodoll like this.

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      Exactly the acceptance of death is like knowing you will wake up in a lucid dream. I totally agree with that. However the idea that this realization is what allows you to truly be free I do not agree. It's not enough. I think you delude yourself by thinking that fear,self importance, and pity do not limit you. Or you might just hide those emotions from yourself believing that you are free. And you probably never got close enough to the edge to feel their tug on your ego.

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