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    Thread: I just can't get my head around nonexistence after death

    1. #26
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      Alric, you didn't answer my anesthesia question. What is your answer?

      The idea of Hell is that you don't have a brain. Your soul burns forever. I think it's an absurd fiction concept, but that is the concept.

      As for the fictitious Heaven concept, it is that you experience bliss forever. You don't lose your mind if you experience bliss forever. You would have to have a mind to have experience.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    2. #27
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      You don't need a mind to experience endless bliss. Imagine if I shot an overdose of heroin into your brain. You would experience a surge of pure bliss but you wouldn't be capable of thought anymore. If you made the bliss continue on forever it would most certainly destroy your brain and make you incapable of even basic thoughts but you would keep feeling the bliss. That is what I picture heaven would be like. Otherwise how can you be happy knowing your friends and family are being tortured forever? Imagine you are a mother and your child is being tortured over and over. How could you possibly be happy knowing that? Clearly if you go to heaven parts of your brain needs to be destroyed. Also the part that that has free will and the ability to think of sins would have to be destroyed as well.

      It would be like suffering a lobotomy, not really a pleasant thought. I would rather just be tortured if I get to remain alive as my self.

      Like I said before I would rather be tortured than lose my mind and cease to exist. That would always be the case. Having a button that knocks you out might be a good feature. I would think I would try to take as much pain as I could then hit the button to rest, then when I woke up go as long as I could before hitting it again. I would think that over time you would slowly build up your willpower and resolve until eventually you no longer need to rest and can just survive the constant pain. At that point you no longer use the button.

    3. #28
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      I said the idea is that you don't have a brain in Heaven or Hell. I have done heroin (bad idea), and I was able to think on it. Also, you have to have a mind to have emotions and sensations. You argued that parts of the mind would have to be destroyed to experience bliss in Heaven, and I agree with that, but you would have the capacity to feel if you can experience bliss.

      I sort of relate to what you are saying, but I draw the line somewhere short of eternal torture. My dad once asked me how much intelligence I would be willing to give up to increase my happiness. I said none. I want my mind as it is. We have debated that a bunch. He still says I gave the wrong answer, but I don't think I did. A bit of happiness for loss of understanding of reality and the accompanying fascination is not worth it. Happiness is not the only positive emotion or sensation. However, burning forever would be so horrifically torturous that I would give up all of my intelligence to get out of it. There is nothing at all that could possibly be worth experiencing torture forever and ever. It would be infinitely terrible. Infinity can be a very influential aspect.

      If you would press the anesthesia button sometimes while on fire forever, it shows that there would be times when you would choose unconsciousness over torture. The reasons you would are what I think apply to all moments. Being unconscious is better than being on fire and feeling it if there is zero hope of escaping the fire.
      Last edited by Universal Mind; 03-22-2014 at 07:37 AM.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


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      I just wounder guys... What's the point of your discussion about if you would like to live, or not live in a eternal hell after death. If you already are sure that nothing will exist after this life? Just for the fun of arguing about your own standpoint in a fantasy belief I guess?

    5. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by DreamyBear View Post
      I just wounder guys... What's the point of your discussion about if you would like to live, or not live in a eternal hell after death. If you already are sure that nothing will exist after this life? Just for the fun of arguing about your own standpoint in a fantasy belief I guess?
      Almost all threads eventually go in new directions if they are long enough. That is not hijacking. It is conversational evolution. However, my discussion with Alric is not even tangential. We are comparing unconsciousness after death to the most common conceptions of consciousness after death. That puts unconsciousness after death into perspective.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    6. #31
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      well.. This thread was about one page about what the OP wanted to discuss. So I dont think that is long enough at all really. I respect if this might be conversational evolution for you two. But I dont see to much potential in this kind of arguments since you guys already have stated that you dont think that consciousness will exist after death.

      Since you mention that there is unconsciousness after death, then you actually saying that there is some kind of consciousness after death, right? Because either there is consciousness/unconsciousness after death, or there is nothing. I dont know what you really believe, but just to make things clear. unconsciousness is not the same as nothingness if that is what you guys are talking about. So you do believe that there is some kind of consciousness after death then?

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      If you get a braining eating disease and it eats half your brain and you lose all your memories and you become mentally retarded and your personality drastically changes yet you are still alive, you can still feel pleasure or pain but what is left wouldn't really be 'you' anymore. It would still physically be you but mentally it would be like an entirely different person. That is the kind of thing I am talking about. You can be in a vegetative state where you feel pleasure and pain but don't have higher cognitive functions. That is what heaven would be like. You feel endless pleasure but are incapable of any real thought.

      Like Dreamybear pointed out though, not existing and being unconscious are not the same thing. So if you push the button to go unconscious, that isn't the same as no longer existing. Knowing that you will wake up after makes a huge difference. Which is why going to sleep isn't something to be scared of, since you will wake up again.

      To clear that up though, what we are saying Dreamybear, is that being unconscious would appear similar. As in you are not really aware of what is going on in both cases. They are not the same though, since your brain and body is still functioning while unconscious. Though when you don't exist there isn't any part of you at all.

    8. #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by DreamyBear View Post
      well.. This thread was about one page about what the OP wanted to discuss. So I dont think that is long enough at all really. I respect if this might be conversational evolution for you two. But I dont see to much potential in this kind of arguments since you guys already have stated that you dont think that consciousness will exist after death.

      Since you mention that there is unconsciousness after death, then you actually saying that there is some kind of consciousness after death, right? Because either there is consciousness/unconsciousness after death, or there is nothing. I dont know what you really believe, but just to make things clear. unconsciousness is not the same as nothingness if that is what you guys are talking about. So you do believe that there is some kind of consciousness after death then?
      It looks like you read the first part of my post but not the rest of it. I explained how our discussion puts unconsciousness into perspective.

      I am not sure what you think is the difference between unconsiousness and nothing. Wouldn't the "nothing" be what an unconscious person experiences? I don't think anybody is saying that when they die the whole universe and whatever else there is will cease to exist.

      Quote Originally Posted by Alric View Post
      If you get a braining eating disease and it eats half your brain and you lose all your memories and you become mentally retarded and your personality drastically changes yet you are still alive, you can still feel pleasure or pain but what is left wouldn't really be 'you' anymore. It would still physically be you but mentally it would be like an entirely different person. That is the kind of thing I am talking about. You can be in a vegetative state where you feel pleasure and pain but don't have higher cognitive functions. That is what heaven would be like. You feel endless pleasure but are incapable of any real thought.
      I would rather have that than have no consciousness at all.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    9. #34
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      Knowing that you will wake up after makes a huge difference.
      If further experience of pleasant events is important to one. Then I agree with this!

      To clear that up though, what we are saying Dreamybear, is that being unconscious would appear similar. As in you are not really aware of what is going on in both cases. They are not the same though, since your brain and body is still functioning while unconscious. Though when you don't exist there isn't any part of you at all.
      I agree with your standpoint of unconscious Alric. Being unconscious would be like a simulation of nothingness, wich would be a non experience with a potential to experience. What we call "I", is merely memories wich is perceived by our consciousness. So do you guys think that this consciousness that we call "I". Have the potential to still be intact, after the body stops to function completely?

    10. #35
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      I am not sure what you think is the difference between unconsiousness and nothing. Wouldn't the "nothing" be what an unconscious person experiences? I don't think anybody is saying that when they die the whole universe and whatever else there is will cease to exist.
      The difference between unconsiousness and nothing, is that unconsiousness is still a consiousness. Even if it is like a simulation of nothing. If there is nothing, then nothing it is. If there is unconsciousness, then there is no experience during the unconscious part. So there is difference between the word of unconscious and nothing.

    11. #36
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      I am talking about not having consciousness, though there may still be a body there for a while.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


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      I am talking about not having consciousness, though there may still be a body there for a while.
      I see.. The thing is that if we talk about a living body, then there is consciousness in the cells them selfs that keep the body in the form of a body. So a body without consciousness would merely be a dead body, wich immediately starting to dissolve.

    13. #38
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      Yes, a dead body.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    14. #39
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      Well - what this exchange basically shows, is how absurd the Christian concepts of heaven and hell actually are.
      Not that I needed to be shown that - but there.
      To ponder one's nonexistence after death might lead one to make a better job of living a fulfilling life in the here and now and cherish it.
      It's horrible non the less.
      I guess, it should theoretically be possible to transfer one's mind onto another substrate - artificial or biological or something mixed.
      But that's a long way off, if not actually something speaks against it in principle.

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      Yes, a dead body.
      Is that some kind of a point you want to make clear with that? from your discussion about unconsciousness?

      Well - what this exchange basically shows, is how absurd the Christian concepts of heaven and hell actually are.
      Not that I needed to be shown that - but there.
      To ponder one's nonexistence after death might lead one to make a better job of living a fulfilling life in the here and now and cherish it.
      It's horrible non the less.
      I guess, it should theoretically be possible to transfer one's mind onto another substrate - artificial or biological or something mixed.
      But that's a long way off, if not actually something speaks against it in principle.
      I can agree with you StephL, that there might be a long shot to imagine that there must be some kind of heaven or hell as people make it up. With some kind of law with moral aspects to it, and so on. But, since material things is able to dissolve into other forms just because it is materialized. Then how do we know that something like a radio frequency filled with information will dissolve? Another amazing thing, is also how a piece of DNA can hold so much information and consciousness from the start. I dont see material things as the source, but merely like the end result out of the consciousness that seems to come out of nothing, wich have it's counterpart that is the word something.

    16. #41
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      ^^ DNA holds consciousness? Hmm...not sure of that, but I think I see your point.

      Here's another thought: isn't it better, or at least harmless, to think there is something after death, something that isn't absolute nonexistence? Your thinking doesn't have to be religious at all, though of course it requires a bit of faith in something, if only the survival of your conscious essence after death.

      If you think there is something after death, you can spend some time preparing for it, so you can make the most of the transition (i.e., sleep yoga). Even if it's nothing like what you were expecting, at least you'll be ready for something (and yes, I have a feeling those who are confident in a biblical heaven and hell are in for a surprise).

      On the other hand, if you are confident that your existence will be nullified upon corporeal death, if there is an "afterlife" then you might be extremely confused by the transition to it or, worse, you might allow that nonexistence to occur because it is what you expected. It won't actually be a nonexistence, but just the feeling of it; by your own choice you will be existing in a void forever, because that is what you thought it would be, with your only hope of salvation being a good kick in the spiritual pants by another, compassionate, soul who happens to notice your self-induced condemnation.

      To me it does no harm to imagine an existence after death. After all, if there really is nothing, you will not be there to know you screwed up, right? And if there is something, well, your imagination might help prepare you to better cope adjust to your new life.
      Last edited by Sageous; 03-22-2014 at 04:57 PM.
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      ^^ DNA holds consciousness? Hmm...not sure of that, but I think I see your point.

      Here's another thought: isn't it better to think there is something after death, something that isn't absolute nonexistence? Your thinking doesn't have to be religious at all, though of course it requires a bit of faith in something, if only the survival of your conscious essence after death.

      If you think there is something after death, you can spend some time preparing for it, so you can make the most of the transition (i.e., sleep yoga). Even if it's nothing like what you were expecting, at least you'll be ready for something(and yes, I have a feeling those who are confident in a biblical heaven and hell are in for a surprise).

      On the other hand, if you are confident that your existence will be nullified upon corporeal death, if there is an "afterlife" then you might be extremely confused by the transition to it or, worse, you might allow that nonexistence to occur because it is what you expected. It won't actually be a nonexistence, but just the feeling of it; by your own choice you will be existing in a void forever, because that is what you thought it would be.

      To me it does not harm to imagine an existence after death. After all, if there really is nothing, you will not be there to know you screwed up, right? And if there is something, well, your imagination might help prepare you to better cope adjust to your new life.
      Alright maybe consciousness isn't the best way to summarize what DNA is. I then would like to change that into information. So DNA is pre-programed information about what will be materialized. About all the rest of what you said. I can only agree with you. I do hold a closer belief that there might be some kind of "after life" or what to call it. I still like to digg into the possibilities of the ideas that it might be a life after this life though. You had an interesting view of this Sageous, thanks for sharing.
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    18. #43
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      Quote Originally Posted by DreamyBear View Post
      Is that some kind of a point you want to make clear with that? from your discussion about unconsciousness?
      Yes. I cleared up what you asked about. Is there still some confusion? We are talking about what it is like to have no consciousness when dead. That is as clearly as I can explain it.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


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      Who you are is linked to your brain. That is why you can change a person by changing their brain. You take drugs and you act differently, if you get sick you can act or think differently. When you are tired you think and act differently. The chances of anything existing after your brain is gone is pretty slim.

      The only situation I have ever heard that might allow for something to live on after you die is if we are really in a simulation of the world that is currently running on some computer. Even if that is true your chances are still pretty slim but there is some off chance that the person running the simulation could backup all the people on it and then do something with them.

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      Yes. I cleared up what you asked about. Is there still some confusion? We are talking about what it is like to have no consciousness when dead. That is as clearly as I can explain it.
      Since you talked about states of consciousness before. And then swich to your opinion of that is just death and nothing more, in a very odd formulated way of saying it. Then yes, there will be great confusion.


      You are basically saying that you are discussing what it would be like, to try to experience nothing when dead.. Such discussion cant be much more then pure confusion it self. If you say that you have no consciousness. Then all there is, is nothing. And there is nothing more to discuss, to make it any more clear then that. The discussion you are talking about is pointless, but not if you enjoy the confusion of it I guess.

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      The chances of any experience after physical death is pretty slim, as long as we are stuck with the same understanding as we have when we say that the chance is slim to begin with. How slim would the idea of going to the moon be to a caveman? Pretty slim too I would say.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Actually, philosophically speaking, sleep has been called "the little death" for a very long time.
      I always thought that "le petite mort" referred to orgasm. So death will be like an orgasm. I can live with that! I mean, die.
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    23. #48
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      This has the potential to be a very interesting discussion I thought Sageous' post was quite interesting, as always. Cold you please tell me more about those dream Yogi, can a master dream Yogi really be conscious for 8 sleeping hours? Dayum that's crazy. So they also feel the transitions of sleep stages? I don't know if I would like it though, staying conscious 24/7, seems pretty tiring doesn't it? Though what you said about your afterlife being decided by your expection was just plain weird.

      I read through the things you guys were saying, roughly.. Philosophers sure are talkative aren't they? I'm sleepy and I hope I can say something proper.. Here I go. About unconscious vs eternal pain, discussing and going into technical details is pretty lame, since the stories in the holy books are not to be taken literal and are just ideas that were made into a story to make it easier to spread. It is based on the basic principle of reward and punishment, I like it and I have great respect for people who devote their lives to their religion.

      Hey I'm doing pretty good aren't I? You people are having an interesting discussion, but I may have to contemplate this afterlife idea to properly contribute. Right now I am still leaning towards absolute nonexistence, you are just gone. You don't experience unconsciously, you don't feel anything your mind is just dead and all is over. Thinking about this gives me an uneasy, extremely mysterious and very interesting feeling, which is why made this thread. Sageous' answer had something very interesting, he said that the Yogi get a taste of death in their sleep. That got me really interested. I don't have much to contribute and I apologize, perhaps I will come up with something better tomorrow morning.

      But by any means, keep it up! This thread gives me lots of community hall points
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    24. #49
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sibyline View Post
      I always thought that "le petite mort" referred to orgasm. So death will be like an orgasm. I can live with that! I mean, die.
      Sorry, I forgot about the French cliche! Had I remembered, I would've put up the same post, but used something more general, like "philosophically speaking, sleep has long been considered a sort of death that we enter into each night." That's doesn't sound as nice, but it would've avoided comparisons to orgasms... not that that's a bad thing, I suppose!
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    25. #50
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      Quote Originally Posted by DreamyBear View Post
      Since you talked about states of consciousness before. And then swich to your opinion of that is just death and nothing more, in a very odd formulated way of saying it. Then yes, there will be great confusion.


      You are basically saying that you are discussing what it would be like, to try to experience nothing when dead.. Such discussion cant be much more then pure confusion it self. If you say that you have no consciousness. Then all there is, is nothing. And there is nothing more to discuss, to make it any more clear then that. The discussion you are talking about is pointless, but not if you enjoy the confusion of it I guess.
      Since you expressed that bizarre and insulting opinion, I will be blunt. I think this discussion is way over your head, if you are not trolling. However, I will try again to help you. If you die and have no consciousness, you are unconscious. The result is not "nothing," aside from what you experience. The universe still exists.

      I did not start this thread. The original poster asked the question, and you got confused about what the issue even is. Don't point fingers. Just educate yourself.

      You are now officially on troll watch.
      Last edited by Universal Mind; 03-22-2014 at 11:38 PM.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


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